The real meaning of futurism

Interplanner said:

re knowing what is future in Mt24.

First, the questions are immediate and practical. What are they supposed to do when the temple is going to be leveled. He tells them. There are number of related things to watch out for. All of Mt24A (up to v29) is a package. Then 'right after' the distress of those days, Jesus starts speaking of universal things beyond Judea. At least the initial declaration is 'right after.' But then he allows for the day of judgement to be distant, both expressly and in the attentive servants parable.

Mt24 spoken in 33 AD. It expects the DofJ in that generation, and the Return right after the DofJ.
The Gospel occurs in 33 AD.
The Great Revolt begins 66 AD
Christians leave Jerusalem in 68.
The revolt is crushed and Jerusalem destroyed in 70.
The universal day of judgement does not occur 'right after' the DofJ, as allowed.
Time goes on til today.

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The first two verses of Mt 24 were fulfilled in AD 70. The rest of the chapter concerns the tribulation and is future.

Interplanner said:

Also, OT, the last time you asked for Scripture I explained again about Mt24. As you can see from my header, I have 6K posts here. I would say...2000 of them mention this treatment of Mt24. The question for you is: is that enough?

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Then what's the problem.. just say so?

Why is like pulling teeth when asking a simple question..

And so after all that, welcome to the future IP..

Not so bad right.. even though we're a bunch of Zionist Brainwashed zombies.

Interplanner said:

Also, OT, the last time you asked for Scripture I explained again about Mt24. As you can see from my header, I have 6K posts here. I would say...2000 of them mention this treatment of Mt24. The question for you is: is that enough?

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You have been wrong about it 2000 times.

Interplanner said:

Work on being observant and attentive.

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Wouldn't it have been a lot easier to just post a verse and say look here's why I believe in the future..

The real meaning here is that interplanner is a dreaded futurist.

riverrat said:

The first two verses of Mt 24 were fulfilled in AD 70.

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Only Preterists believe that.

Preterists believe the -1P program..

Anything (even cloud formations) but the deliverance of Israel.

Interplanner said:

Dunbar,
other than the day of judgement for the whole earth, I don't know what would need to be fulfilled. The ordinary-language passages of the NT (not the Rev) show nothing Judaic: Rom 3, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3. Mt24B (after v 29 when its setting turns global) does not.

You have assumed that the Rev is a prediction of the future instead of a way of seeing the awful events in Judea in the generation after Christ. That needs to be addressed.

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So if Revelation is about 70 A.D. how come it doesn't mention the Temple and Jerusalem being destroyed, or the Jews being carried away captive? All things addressed in Luke 21.

Interplanner said:

Til the end of time.

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Until the Jews come to Christ you mean.

Interplanner said in post 71:

"Babylon" is cast down!

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Note that while the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of 1st century Jerusalem. For 1st century Jerusalem just by itself didn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor was 1st century Jerusalem the only place where people bought merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor had 1st century Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it's destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

Interplanner said in post 71:

The harlot rides the beast and is then devoured by the beast.

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The 7 heads of Revelation's "beast" in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the 1st century: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

@ Interplanner....

Can you please tell me why the people in the below verse are still here?

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Also why are people still dying?

Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

When did the former things pass away?

Either Christ lied or preterism is the biggest lie ever sold........

Interplanner said:

People who are full preterists are not allowed to post here for the very essential reason that there is not yet a new heaven and earth, which the passage is about.

It seems you need to distinguish between kinds. I'm the kind, because of historical study, who says that Mt24A (before v29) is about 1st century Judea and is also the scene that Dan 9 described. Mt24B is after v29, was expected to be right after A, but was allowed to delay. And did.

Then there is the BW kind. He says only Lk 21 has to do with 1st century Judea. (Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21 being very similar, right?) So I guess you'd call him a Lk 21 preterist.

One reason he does that (based on comments over the past 2 days) is to "protect" the expression "the abomination that desolates" from any past tense association so that it is a future event in Israel. I do not.

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Mt 24:1-2 was fulfilled in AD 70. The rest of the chapter is about the tribulation and is in the future!

Interplanner said:

People who are full preterists are not allowed to post here for the very essential reason that there is not yet a new heaven and earth, which the passage is about.

It seems you need to distinguish between kinds. I'm the kind, because of historical study, who says that Mt24A (before v29) is about 1st century Judea and is also the scene that Dan 9 described. Mt24B is after v29, was expected to be right after A, but was allowed to delay. And did.

Then there is the BW kind. He says only Lk 21 has to do with 1st century Judea. (Mt 24, Mk 13 and Lk 21 being very similar, right?) So I guess you'd call him a Lk 21 preterist.

One reason he does that (based on comments over the past 2 days) is to "protect" the expression "the abomination that desolates" from any past tense association so that it is a future event in Israel. I do not.

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I find it amazing that you understand my thinking process so much better than I do.

To explain my past comments in better detail, Luke 21:8-19 pertain to all time, and an explanation that great disasters do not indicate that the end is near. Then Luke 21:20-24a speak of the events of A.D. 70, and neither Matthew 24 nor Mark 13 quotes this portion of the answer Jesus gave to the disciple's three part question. But Luke 24b clearly continues down to the present, for Jerusalem is still "trodden down by the gentiles," and continues into the future, for the "until" remains unfulfilled. Then Like 21:25-27 clearly go on into the future, for the Son of man has not even yet, almost 2000 years later, "come in a cloud with power and great glory."

Then Luke 21 contains a clear description of how to know when the end actually is near, and teaches that "all things" He had spoken of would take place within the generation of those that would see"all these things begin to happen." And yes, I know this is an interpretation, but is is fully as legitimate as interpreting these same words to mean that "all things" would take place within the generation that He was addressing.

Biblewriter wrote:

I find it amazing that you understand my thinking process so much better than I do.

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Interplanner can also read the mind of Jeremiah.

Biblewriter said:

To explain my past comments in better detail, Luke 21:8-19 pertain to all time, and an explanation that great disasters do not indicate that the end is near. Then Luke 21:20-24a speak of the events of A.D. 70, and neither Matthew 24 nor Mark 13 quotes this portion of the answer Jesus gave to the disciple's three part question.

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Scripture makes that position untenable.
Luke 21:20-24 is entirely parallel to Matt 24:15-17 and Mark 13:14-15
Your futurism is the only thing requiring they be separate, for the text itself cements the events together.

Luke places the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies at the same time as the AoD of Matt and Mark.

COMPARE THIS:
14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. (Mark 13:14-15)

TO THIS:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’
spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. (Matt 24:15-16)

TO THIS:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
(Luke 21:20-21)

It's the Same "WHEN", it's the same "THEN" , it's the same "DESOLATION" being spoken of in all 3 SYNOPTIC, PARALLEL passages.

riverrat said:

Mt 24:1-2 was fulfilled in AD 70.

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