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The real meaning of futurism
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daq
Messianic
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I answered your question in spite of the fact that neither you nor any of your fellow associates have answered my questions posed here and elsewhere as quoted from another thread here in this thread. What you actually desire is for others to confess what you believe rather than what the Scripture teaches. You will first need to show me where in the Scripture it states that God is going to appear in flesh and enforce a physical planetary global domination kingdom. Yeshua clearly also said that his kingdom is not of this world. And truthfully it is you who appears to be living in fear because you clearly do not truly believe you are the temple of God, (as all of the New Covenant writings teach). For if indeed you did believe man is the temple, and you yourself are a temple, then you would not place Messiah so far away from yourself, up in the clouds somewhere, waiting for two thousand years now to return in the flesh and make you a king of the world. You and those like you do such things so that you can toss Messiah into your backpack like an insurance package tucked away for a rainy day while you get to continue along your merry way living your lives completely for yourselves without any change of heart or lifestyle whatsoever. All the while poor Old Timer and his fellows have unwittingly married themselves to their own queens of Sheba seven heads as in the days of Noach, (for some of you the first five are already fallen but not all of you).
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Your first point is just the madness of futurism. There is no reason in the world they would think of our end of time. The temple would be first. Then the end of the age would be thick with the things being discussed at that time--the law, the old covenant, Judaism, the total destruction of the city per Dan 9's 490 years that everyone who "read" knew was coming.
No normal meaning to the conversation would ever switch it to a distant future that didn't matter to those listening! They needed to know what to do to be safe, then, there, for themselves, their friends.
2, the temple was the identity of Israel. "Don't swear by the temple or anything on earth..." It had been declared desolate, but there it was standing. In Luke, this declaration is even earlier chronologically. It does not just mean the building. House of Israel very often, if you know the OT, meant the culture, the legacy, etc. "Hear me oh house of Israel..." a prophet would say. Did he mean a building had ears?
To double up (to answer both the run-ups and the intro questions of Mt24A at the same time): the workers and the city are abandoned in the Mt 21-23 parables. It's not a building. Today we might use the term "entity."
Poorly done, BW. I'm surprised.
No normal meaning to the conversation would ever switch it to a distant future that didn't matter to those listening! They needed to know what to do to be safe, then, there, for themselves, their friends.
2, the temple was the identity of Israel. "Don't swear by the temple or anything on earth..." It had been declared desolate, but there it was standing. In Luke, this declaration is even earlier chronologically. It does not just mean the building. House of Israel very often, if you know the OT, meant the culture, the legacy, etc. "Hear me oh house of Israel..." a prophet would say. Did he mean a building had ears?
To double up (to answer both the run-ups and the intro questions of Mt24A at the same time): the workers and the city are abandoned in the Mt 21-23 parables. It's not a building. Today we might use the term "entity."
Poorly done, BW. I'm surprised.
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O
Old Timer
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I see daq, you have issues with the bodily resurrection of the dead do you?
As for the kingdom of God, NOW it is not yet of this world.. although when Rev 11:15 comes to pass then the kingdoms of this world shall become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.
Just as Israel remains blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and then the Deliverer comes from Sion and turns ungodliness from Jacob..
Or how that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled..
See, it's not ALL about the here and now.. there's plenty more in the hereafter.
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O
Old Timer
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You've already admitted that the Day of the LORD is future judgment and it's been 2k plus years since it was written.. even though you refuse to show scripture showing this..
Let's face it IP.. you're a futurist..
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Neither of those events or quotes are future OT.
Paul was saying the Deliverer had come, that the Isaiah passage was already accomplished. Sin (as debt) was taken away. This is emphatically connected to the three "nows" in that paragraph. Now, in the Gospel, all men are proven to be in sin, so that now in the Gospel, God can have mercy on them. There is nothing Judaic that is differentiated. The gifts and calling are not something else to happen; they are mentioned because some Jews always will believe, though it is a low %.
On "trampled until"--this is easily resolved. "Until" does not guarantee any future particulars. It means the same as "for as long as." I mean the Greek term. The futurists (those who think there is unfinished business with Judaism that will be resumed in our future) have got the idea that this one of the "clear" places where things happen after the times of the Gentiles. They do this without asking whether the times of the nations is the destination that history was moving toward before the final judgement of God changes our whole world.
Paul was saying the Deliverer had come, that the Isaiah passage was already accomplished. Sin (as debt) was taken away. This is emphatically connected to the three "nows" in that paragraph. Now, in the Gospel, all men are proven to be in sin, so that now in the Gospel, God can have mercy on them. There is nothing Judaic that is differentiated. The gifts and calling are not something else to happen; they are mentioned because some Jews always will believe, though it is a low %.
On "trampled until"--this is easily resolved. "Until" does not guarantee any future particulars. It means the same as "for as long as." I mean the Greek term. The futurists (those who think there is unfinished business with Judaism that will be resumed in our future) have got the idea that this one of the "clear" places where things happen after the times of the Gentiles. They do this without asking whether the times of the nations is the destination that history was moving toward before the final judgement of God changes our whole world.
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O
Old Timer
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That's fine IP, just tell us what IS future in the scriptures.. you say that the Day of the LORD is future and yet can't show scripture to support that belief..
Marty, is there a problem with scripture in the future?
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Sorry, scripture to show this? What's "this"?
1, the 2nd coming? I show this all the time. I don't show futurism (a set of Judaic things that are supposed to resume before this world is changed to the new world at the end of time).
2, that it has been 2K since written? You don't use Scripture for that, you just check the calendar. Today is 2014 Anno Domino. Or CE.
1, the 2nd coming? I show this all the time. I don't show futurism (a set of Judaic things that are supposed to resume before this world is changed to the new world at the end of time).
2, that it has been 2K since written? You don't use Scripture for that, you just check the calendar. Today is 2014 Anno Domino. Or CE.
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??? Are you paying attention? I use 5 passages every day but there is nothing Judaic in them. I believe that is the problem you are having.
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O
Old Timer
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To show what YOU JUST SAID is future.. the Day of the LORD, I think you call it the day of judgment..
How do you KNOW it's future? What scripture teaches or reveals this to you?
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O
Old Timer
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Yes, I realize that ANYTHING but Israel being restored will be acceptable. I think you have made that perfectly clear..
Got that part.. just asking how you know what is future and what SCRIPTURE you believe actually is FUTURE..
Or are you actually a full preterist and not actually allowed to post here..?
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As you can find from the definition of full preterism here, that is to deny the 2nd coming. I affirm it. I deny the Judaic part of the 2nd coming. I do that because of those passages in ordinary (non-symbolic) English; they don't mention anything Judaic happening, and Mt24A and //s is about 1st century Judea.
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re knowing what is future in Mt24.
First, the questions are immediate and practical. What are they supposed to do when the temple is going to be leveled. He tells them. There are number of related things to watch out for. All of Mt24A (up to v29) is a package. Then 'right after' the distress of those days, Jesus starts speaking of universal things beyond Judea. At least the initial declaration is 'right after.' But then he allows for the day of judgement to be distant, both expressly and in the attentive servants parable.
Mt24 spoken in 33 AD. It expects the DofJ in that generation, and the Return right after the DofJ.
The Gospel occurs in 33 AD.
The Great Revolt begins 66 AD
Christians leave Jerusalem in 68.
The revolt is crushed and Jerusalem destroyed in 70.
The universal day of judgement does not occur 'right after' the DofJ, as allowed.
Time goes on til today.
First, the questions are immediate and practical. What are they supposed to do when the temple is going to be leveled. He tells them. There are number of related things to watch out for. All of Mt24A (up to v29) is a package. Then 'right after' the distress of those days, Jesus starts speaking of universal things beyond Judea. At least the initial declaration is 'right after.' But then he allows for the day of judgement to be distant, both expressly and in the attentive servants parable.
Mt24 spoken in 33 AD. It expects the DofJ in that generation, and the Return right after the DofJ.
The Gospel occurs in 33 AD.
The Great Revolt begins 66 AD
Christians leave Jerusalem in 68.
The revolt is crushed and Jerusalem destroyed in 70.
The universal day of judgement does not occur 'right after' the DofJ, as allowed.
Time goes on til today.
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That expression 'all Israel' is part of the whole statement of rom 9-11 which is that there has never been total belief by the whole ethnos known as Israel; it always has only been some. The Israel that is composed of all ethnos (9:26) is the all that will believe, all through time.
It is not a prediction about a futurist event. It is a statement about the new Israel all through time.
this is underlined by the modifier in "And so..." It is the expression 'kai houtos' and a better render is "In this way or manner..." meaning, partially hardened. It always has been that way and will be. You could get this from "so" but "In this way..." is more clear.
Meanwhile, Paul shows his loyalty to his own by spurring them and prodding them to believe and work in the Gospels' mission, esp. in 11. If they help, they could get more done than the average Gentile. Also he doesn't want them to waste their time or lives in the revolt for Israel back in the home country. But ch 11 is not a futurist prediction about a point in time when "all Jews alive at a point in time" are flaming evangelists. Actually, as soon as you say all Jews and timestamp it, then you have immediately excluded the ones before that...
It is not a prediction about a futurist event. It is a statement about the new Israel all through time.
this is underlined by the modifier in "And so..." It is the expression 'kai houtos' and a better render is "In this way or manner..." meaning, partially hardened. It always has been that way and will be. You could get this from "so" but "In this way..." is more clear.
Meanwhile, Paul shows his loyalty to his own by spurring them and prodding them to believe and work in the Gospels' mission, esp. in 11. If they help, they could get more done than the average Gentile. Also he doesn't want them to waste their time or lives in the revolt for Israel back in the home country. But ch 11 is not a futurist prediction about a point in time when "all Jews alive at a point in time" are flaming evangelists. Actually, as soon as you say all Jews and timestamp it, then you have immediately excluded the ones before that...
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daq
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Scripture twister! like father like son!
The passage does not say "now it is not yet of this world" because the word "yet"-[eti] is neither found in the passage nor implied. Contrariwise, in this context, it is "now, from hence, henceforth, from right now onward, my kingdom is not of this world". This is likewise supported by the statement "From the days of Yochanan the Immerser UNTIL NOW, (at that time) the kingdom of heaven had suffered violence; being seized violently by violent flesh minded and carnal men who can see nothing but the physical realm.Matthew 11:12-15 KJV
12. And from the days of John the Baptist until now ["heos-arti"] the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 26:63-64 KJV
63. But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter ["apo arti" ~ "from right now forward"] shall ye see [literally "shall be seen"] the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
John 18:36 KJV
36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now [GSN#3568 "nun" - as of now, henceforth, hereafter] is my kingdom not from hence.
Original Strong's Ref. #3568
Romanized nun
Pronounced noon
a primary particle of present time; "now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:
KJV--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time). See also GSN3569, GSN3570.
The word "nun" is employed in the John 18:36 context as a transition from what has been to what shall be from that point in time. It specifically means in this context that the kingdom is no more of this world from "RIGHT NOW ONWARD", (from the date of the crucifixion of Messiah and forward because when Yeshua was resurrected his Testimony was confirmed and all things are now become supernal in meaning through the understanding of his Testimony alone). In addition you have once again broken the Testimony of Yeshua in favor your pet theories:
John 18:36a KJV
36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
Matthew 24:35 KJV
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
John 8:23-24 KJV
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
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O
Old Timer
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Scripture twister! like father like son!
Matthew 11:12-15 KJV
12. And from the days of John the Baptist until now ["heos-arti"] the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13. For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 26:63-64 KJV
63. But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter ["apo arti" ~ "from right now forward"] shall ye see [literally "shall be seen"] the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
John 18:36 KJV
36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now [GSN#3568 "nun" - as of now, henceforth, hereafter] is my kingdom not from hence.
Original Strong's Ref. #3568
Romanized nun
Pronounced noon
a primary particle of present time; "now" (as adverb of date, a transition or emphasis); also as noun or adjective present or immediate:
KJV--henceforth, + hereafter, of late, soon, present, this (time). See also GSN3569, GSN3570.
The word "nun" is employed in the John 18:36 context as a transition from what has been to what shall be from that point in time. It specifically means in this context that the kingdom is no more of this world from "RIGHT NOW ONWARD", (from the date of the crucifixion of Messiah and forward because when Yeshua was resurrected his Testimony was confirmed and all things are now become supernal in meaning through the understanding of his Testimony alone). In addition you have once again broken the Testimony of Yeshua in favor your pet theories:
John 18:36a KJV
36. Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:
Matthew 24:35 KJV
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
John 8:23-24 KJV
23. And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24. I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
I understand that you have issues with a bodily resurrection and refuse to see that DAY approaching.. regardless of the simple fact that the scriptures plainly state the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ with respect to the things which shall be hereafter..
Many can't deal with what's hereafter.. that's blatantly obvious.
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Old Timer
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I know that you can't believe in Israel's deliverance.. as mentioned.. that's painfully obvious..
Regardless, you say that you're not a full preterist and affirm the 2nd coming.. but sorry IP, I don't believe you simply because you REFUSE to post a single verse with respect to the 2nd coming of Christ.
If that were true, then you'd simply post something.
You don't after a dozen or so requests so I must conclude that you're not being honest here.
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2 Pet 3, Acts 17, Rom 3, Rom 8, Heb 9, I Cor 15. Almost every day.
The Deliverer delivered the Gospel to take away the debt of sin. Done deal. Is 55 is being quoted in past, completed tense by Paul in Rom 11. It is not a prediction.
The Deliverer delivered the Gospel to take away the debt of sin. Done deal. Is 55 is being quoted in past, completed tense by Paul in Rom 11. It is not a prediction.
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