Affect of Church history on Jews!

PhillipLaSpino · Mar 10, 2014

I would like to discuss the following like Christian ladies and Gentlemen should; and because they are touchy subject, please; no name calling or sarcastic remarks. Use actual history to make a point, and stick with Scripture only!

"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church that is from Christ ascension to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people?

Has the church in the past acted with love to the Jews, or has it acted like a poacher, a hunter of men, those who track their pray in order to steal what belongs to him, and to than exterminate them?

Do we agree with those that are anti-Semite? Do you think the church is attempting to steal the blessing promised by God to the Jews? And lastly, would you rather call Israel Palestine? These are some of the subjects I would like to consider on this tread. Discuss one or all if you choose. I know there are strong feeling on the subjects posted, but if we don't discuss these issues like Christians should, how can we learn?

Phil LaSpino

christianmomof3 · Mar 12, 2014

I see that you have not received any replies.
There are probably several reasons for this.
First, your spelling is atrocious.
Your thread should be titled Effect, not affect - as a noun, affect relates to the display of emotion, and as a noun, effect means the result or outcome of a cause. Later in the thread, you also need the word effect rather than affect.
Other misspelled words include: gentlemen, Christians (no apostrophe is necessary), I assume you meant poacher as there is not really such a thing as a poucher unless it is someone who puts things into pouches, prey (not pray), and thread - not tread.

You ask:
"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church, that is from Christ ascention to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people? "

yet you want people to reply with:
"Use actual history to make a point, and stick with Scripture only! "
You cannot use scripture only in order to tell about historical events that happened after the Bible was written.

As far as how the church historically has treated Jews - I think it has affected how Jews view Christians even though today's Christians don't, for the most part, commit atrocities against Jews any more. There are still, however many anti-Semitic views and misconceptions that still exist within Christianity.

PhillipLaSpino · Mar 12, 2014

Christianmom thanks for your insight to my article of misspelled words. I usually write than run it through my spell-check. I suppose I did get careless!

I had asked several questions, and if anyone was to respond they were to use actual historical events or the Scriptures to agree or disagree with the offenders (the church) and those offended (the Jews.)
I note your correction to me was quoted straight from a Webster dictionary; you should have used quotation marks. You know "

So I suppose you’re going to mark me E or F because my spelling stood out like a chunk mud in a pan of Gold?

If you think that’s bad, one time in the past someone asked me to profile a man. In my report I forgot to mention he was a 6’10” Chinese man

Phil LaSpino

Albion · Mar 12, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
I would like to discuss the following like Christian ladies and Gentlemen should; and because they are touchy subject, please; no name calling or sarcastic remarks. Use actual history to make a point, and stick with Scripture only!

"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church that is from Christ ascension to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people?

Ignore? I think we should acknowledge that it happened, yes.

Has the church in the past acted with love to the Jews, or has it acted like a poacher, a hunter of men, those who track their pray in order to steal what belongs to him, and to than exterminate them?

It has acted as though these non-Christians were responsible for the crucifixion of Our Lord. I don't know about that "poacher...hunter of men," etc. stuff.

Do we agree with those that are anti-Semite?

"We?" I don't...but you have other people among the churches who are intent upon the destruction of Israel, so anti-Semitism still has a place, at least among some churches.

Do you think the church is attempting to steal the blessing promised by God to the Jews?

No.

and lastly, would you rather call Israel Palestine?

We don't call any other country by a name other than its own legal name, so No.

Frogster · Mar 12, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
I would like to discuss the following like Christian ladies and Gentlemen should; and because they are touchy subject, please; no name calling or sarcastic remarks. Use actual history to make a point, and stick with Scripture only!

"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church that is from Christ ascension to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people?

Has the church in the past acted with love to the Jews, or has it acted like a poacher, a hunter of men, those who track their pray in order to steal what belongs to him, and to than exterminate them?

Do we agree with those that are anti-Semite? Do you think the church is attempting to steal the blessing promised by God to the Jews? And lastly, would you rather call Israel Palestine? These are some of the subjects I would like to consider on this tread. Discuss one or all if you choose. I know there are strong feeling on the subjects posted, but if we don't discuss these issues like Christians should, how can we learn?

Phil LaSpino

well..in the days of Paul, the jews were not exactly loving of gentiles, they listened to paul until they heard a certain word..cough..cough..then they wanted to kill paul, and tried to.

Acts 22:21 And he said to me, ‘Go, for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”22 Up to this word they listened to him. Then they raised their voices and said, “Away with such a fellow from the earth! For he should not be allowed to live.”

Besides, the blessing of Abraham is the Spirit, not land, Gal 3:14, for jew and greek, no one is taking that from anyone.

And the early church in paul's day was under pressure from the jews, and jewish christians, so that is just history to be considered.

BobRyan · Mar 12, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
I would like to discuss the following like Christian ladies and Gentlemen should; and because they are touchy subject, please; no name calling or sarcastic remarks. Use actual history to make a point, and stick with Scripture only!

"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church that is from Christ ascension to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people?

Lateran IV called for the 'extermination of heretics" and a lot of Christians got squashed in that so-called "infallible" decision.

In the same way the so called "infallible" council of Florence states

""It (the council) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."

Furthermore, renewing the sacred canons, we command both diocesan bishops and secular powers to prohibit in every way Jews and other infidels from having Christians, male or female, in their households and service, or as nurses of their children; and Christians from joining with them in festivities, marriages, banquets or baths, or in much conversation, and from taking them as doctors or agents of marriages or officially appointed mediators of other contracts. They should not be given other public offices, or admitted to any academic degrees, or allowed to have on lease lands or other ecclesiastical rents. They are to be forbidden to buy ecclesiastical books, chalices, crosses and other ornaments of churches under pain of the loss of the object, or to accept them in pledge under pain of the loss of the money that they lent. They are to be compelled, under severe penalties, to wear some garment whereby they can be clearly distinguished from Christians. In order to prevent too much intercourse, they should be made to dwell in areas, in the cities and towns, which are apart from the dwellings of Christians and as far distant as possible from churches. On Sundays and other solemn festivals they should not dare to have their shops open or to work in public.

Pope Leo X, in the bull Exurge Domino, condemned as heresy Luther's initial belief that it offends the Holy Spirit to have heretics burned
[FONT=&quot]1478 Crusades exterminated Jews burning them at the stake and confiscating their property

These actions - commands - by ecumenical councils are deemed to be "infallible" to this very day "by some".

in Christ,

Bob
[/FONT]

nephilimiyr · Mar 12, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
Christianmom thanks for your insight to my article of misspelled words. I usually write than run it through my spell-check. I suppose I did get careless!

I had asked several questions, and if anyone was to respond they were to use actual historical events or the Scriptures to agree or disagree with the offenders (the church) and those offended (the Jews.)
I note your correction to me was quoted straight from a Webster dictionary; you should have used quotation marks. You know "

So I suppose youre going to mark me E or F because my spelling stood out like a chunk mud in a pan of Gold?

If you think thats bad, one time in the past someone asked me to profile a man. In my report I forgot to mention he was a 610 Chinese man

Phil LaSpino

Wow, that was one tall Chinese man! FYI, spell checks don't include grammer checks. Most spell checks will only check the word it thinks you are trying to spell and that is it. If it believes you are spelling the word incorrectly most of them will give you options but will never give you the correct grammer useage.

I'm not the best at spelling words but I usually get it right enough for people to know what I mean. What you wrote in your OP I do think I know what you mean. I will be answering your OP in another post.

concretecamper · Mar 12, 2014

BobRyan said:
""It (the council) firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."

Still true today Bob

nephilimiyr · Mar 12, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church that is from Christ ascension to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people?

To ignor it, no, we should never ignor it; to feel guilty about it, no, unless you or your family has benefited from the suffering of others. This is similar to the question about black people in America and whether whites today should feel guilty about slavery and have to pay finacial atonement for those sins. I don't believe in racial atonement. I believe in racial differences in the way we look and do things of course, but because we are all potentially Gods children, or are children by adoption, I don't believe a race has to answer for the sins of that race of another generation, especially if it's far removed in the number of years the sins have been committed.

Has the church in the past acted with love to the Jews, or has it acted like a poacher, a hunter of men, those who track their pray in order to steal what belongs to him, and to than exterminate them?

Lets get one thing straight with each other on what I believe. Those who drew blood and caused terrible sufferings of all sorts in the past are repeaping what they sold, or will be, Vengence is for the Lord, not for us.

To me this question all comes down to the definition of what makes us a Christian? There are thousands of people who claim to be a christian but are not. Adolf Hitler claimed to be a christian but did Jesus Christ know him? Did Hitler know Jesus the Christ? The fruit of Hittler tells me that he knew very little of Jesus the Christ but attempted to use the moniker as a way to influence and control people. Christian spelled in the small case c means nothing, it's Christian spelled in the high case C that makes the difference.

Corrie Ten Boom, a christian living in The Netherlands during Hitlers reign proved that she was a christian spelled with a capitol C because she and her family cared and hide several Jews in their home under the risk of losing their own lives. Her whole family lost their lives because of that except for her, she was allowed to live to tell her story. Why? because she was faithful to the Lord in spreading the gospel story, and under the worst circumstances imaginable.

we agree with those that are anti-Semite?

Who's we? And who are those who are anti-Semite? Those who are christian, spelled with a capitol C, meaning those who truely know the Lord Jesus Christ, are not anti-semite surely don't agree with anything that is anti-semite. Little c's are wishy-washy and generally don't carede for anyone but themselves.

Do you think the church is attempting to steal the blessing promised by God to the Jews?

Not from what I have witnessed from any of the churches I have been involved in.

And lastly, would you rather call Israel Palestine?

It really doesn't matter what the country is called. The fact that the Jewish people are ruling a country in the Holy Land, in Jerusalem, is a direct answer to prophecy, IMHO. God forsaw this, predicted this, and it has come to pass. The possession of the land will never change again. That I do believe, the Jewish people will never again be homeless, never again be considered a "wandering Jew". Soon, and very soon, I believe in my life time, and I'm 50 years old, Jesus is coming again to set up his long awaited kingdom on earth. I may be very old at the time it happens but it is going to happen very soon.

Radagast · Mar 12, 2014

BobRyan said:
1478 Crusades exterminated Jews burning them at the stake and confiscating their property

What rubbish! There were not even any Crusades in 1478.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Mar 12, 2014

Major Christian denominations have done a considerable amount of soul-searched regarding our history with Jews and Judaism, and most have official statements to that effect.

Also, I would recommend:

GratiaCorpusChristi · Mar 12, 2014

Oh, and as for calling Israel Palestine, that's ridiculous. The name of the sovereign nation-state that exists in the southern Levant is called Israel. I hope one day there will also be a sovereign nation-state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip called Palestine, but it does not service to the Palestinian cause to pretend like Israel isn't Israel. And, if we're being honest, the best hope for a Palestinian state is a friendly neighboring Israel, not the replacement of Israel by Palestine; Israel will only be replaced by Palestine with the aid of combined Arab military power, and any Palestinian state established by combined Arab military power will not be a Palestine worth living in.

nephilimiyr · Mar 12, 2014

Radagast said:
What rubbish! There were not even any Crusades in 1478.

Whether there were or weren't, or what year it happend, the fact remains the same, the Jewish people have suffered greatly from church, and or, secular persecution. You might be able to successfully argue about the details but the fact remains the same. The Jewish people do have an excellent reason to not trust the Church due to past history.

nephilimiyr · Mar 12, 2014

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
Oh, and as for calling Israel Palestine, that's ridiculous. The name of the sovereign nation-state that exists in the southern Levant is called Israel. I hope one day there will also be a sovereign nation-state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip called Palestine, but it does not service to the Palestinian cause to pretend like Israel isn't Israel. And, if we're being honest, the best hope for a Palestinian state is a friendly neighboring Israel, not the replacement of Israel by Palestine; Israel will only be replaced by Palestine with the aid of combined Arab military power, and any Palestinian state established by combined Arab military power will not be a Palestine worth living in.

All of that what you wrote is one of the main reasons why I believe only Jesus' second coming will be able to solve this. At this point, anyone who can solve this huge problem will actually only be putting a bandaid on it, making it look like a total cure.

I was a teenager when President Carter brought together the presidents of Israel and Egypt for a peace tready that was supposed to last, well, it really didn't did it? No, there hasn't been war yet, but.....

AnticipateHisComing · Mar 13, 2014

nephilimiyr said:
All of that what you wrote is one of the main reasons why I believe only Jesus' second coming will be able to solve this. At this point, anyone who can solve this huge problem will actually only be putting a bandaid on it, making it look like a total cure.

I was a teenager when President Carter brought together the presidents of Israel and Egypt for a peace tready that was supposed to last, well, it really didn't did it? No, there hasn't been war yet, but.....

Peace can ONLY come from God.

Do you think there is a reason why Israel and the Jewish people have been oppressed so many times? Just as Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD for their rejection of Jesus, so they will continue without peace until they accept Jesus.

I am always amazed at how blind and arrogant the Jews are. They think to remind the world with their many memorials of their persecution in the Haulocost, but they fail to acknowledge that God might be angry with them and sending them a message.

If they looked into their history, they would find many times they were in the same position. But, they fail to act and change their ways. So, the persuasions will get greater and more severe.

God does so desire for his people to come back to him.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Mar 13, 2014

nephilimiyr said:
All of that what you wrote is one of the main reasons why I believe only Jesus' second coming will be able to solve this. At this point, anyone who can solve this huge problem will actually only be putting a bandaid on it, making it look like a total cure.

I was a teenager when President Carter brought together the presidents of Israel and Egypt for a peace tready that was supposed to last, well, it really didn't did it? No, there hasn't been war yet, but.....

I think that's true of all global politics, international issues, domestic politics, economic problems, social problems, and psychological issues. It's the nature of sin.

But that's no reason not to work toward the Good on this side of eternity. We may never hit the mark, but it's our duty to try. And what's more, while I don't think any Arab-established Palestine covering the whole of the British Mandate can be a viable state with justice for Palestinians, I do think an Israel- and US-backed Palestinian state covering the West Bank and Gaza could be viable along the lines of the Clinton/Barack plan put forward toward the end of the Camp David Accords.

Erose · Mar 13, 2014

I do wonder why that when things like this is discussed it is always the Christians did this or that. Yet we don't use the same terminology with other cultures do we? We never say that the Jupitarians slaughtered the Artemisans; or the Thorites destroyed the... well whoever. And yet we always use Christian, Catholics, Protestants as terms to describe every atrocity of the Middle Ages.

Where there Christians that took it upon themselves to be vigilantes, and killed some Jews or heretics or pagans or whoever else? Of course. But by far it was the policy of secular governments that went to war, or made life hard on a specific group of people.

Honestly it would be like saying that Protestantism is at fault for the enslaved and persecuted blacks; and it was Protestants who kept them down until the civil rights movement. It was the Protestants fault, because up until recently most Americans were Protestant. But we don't do that, and rightfully so; so why do we make this exception for the Middle Ages and the period after the Reformation? That all things bad was due to a religion instead of the secular powers that actually did the persecutions.

Maybe this doesn't make much sense, but I am speaking off the top of my head at this point. Maybe I will clarify what I am saying latter.

GratiaCorpusChristi · Mar 13, 2014

Erose said:
I do wonder why that when things like this is discussed it is always the Christians did this or that. Yet we don't use the same terminology with other cultures do we? We never say that the Jupitarians slaughtered the Artemisans; or the Thorites destroyed the... well whoever. And yet we always use Christian, Catholics, Protestants as terms to describe every atrocity of the Middle Ages.

Where there Christians that took it upon themselves to be vigilantes, and killed some Jews or heretics or pagans or whoever else? Of course. But by far it was the policy of secular governments that went to war, or made life hard on a specific group of people.

Honestly it would be like saying that Protestantism is at fault for the enslaved and persecuted blacks; and it was Protestants who kept them down until the civil rights movement. It was the Protestants fault, because up until recently most Americans were Protestant. But we don't do that, and rightfully so; so why do we make this exception for the Middle Ages and the period after the Reformation? That all things bad was due to a religion instead of the secular powers that actually did the persecutions.

Maybe this doesn't make much sense, but I am speaking off the top of my head at this point. Maybe I will clarify what I am saying latter.

I really want to unambiguously agree with you, because in general I think it is preferable to discussion specific personalities who actually did the killing, raping, stealing, whatever. Saying "Catholicism murdered the Jews" when talking about the horrible events in Europe as people prepared for the First Crusade is about as silly as saying "democracy invaded the Muslims" to refer to the 2003 U.S.-led coalition invasion of Iraq.

My only reservation is that the Middle Ages and Reformation era through 1648 represents a time when it is much harder to separate the actions of states from those of direct religious motivations. It is clear enough that the invasion of Italy in 1496 by Charles VIII of France had no religious motivation; it is equally clear that the 1527 Sack of Rome by Charles V had no religious motivation on the part of Charles V. But when Lutheran and Luther-inspired hooligans, as part of Charles' army, went on a bloody rampage of murder, theft, rape, and the destruction of religious art for the days following the taking of the city, what do we call that? I think it would be fair, after the facts are clear, to render the judgment "Lutherans put Renaissance Rome out of her misery."

And, obviously, I use that example precisely so that my group is the one under debate and I doesn't look like I'm taking a potshot at anyone else.

Erose · Mar 13, 2014

GratiaCorpusChristi said:
I really want to unambiguously agree with you, because in general I think it is preferable to discussion specific personalities who actually did the killing, raping, stealing, whatever. Saying "Catholicism murdered the Jews" when talking about the horrible events in Europe as people prepared for the First Crusade is about as silly as saying "democracy invaded the Muslims" to refer to the 2003 U.S.-led coalition invasion of Iraq.

My only reservation is that the Middle Ages and Reformation era through 1648 represents a time when it is much harder to separate the actions of states from those of direct religious motivations. It is clear enough that the invasion of Italy in 1496 by Charles VIII of France had no religious motivation; it is equally clear that the 1527 Sack of Rome by Charles V had no religious motivation on the part of Charles V. But when Lutheran and Luther-inspired hooligans, as part of Charles' army, went on a bloody rampage of murder, theft, rape, and the destruction of religious art for the days following the taking of the city, what do we call that? I think it would be fair, after the facts are clear, to render the judgment "Lutherans put Renaissance Rome out of her misery."

And, obviously, I use that example precisely so that my group is the one under debate and I doesn't look like I'm taking a potshot at anyone else.

I know there is exceptions to every rule, and I agree with you that this is a tricky point that I am trying to make. It just seems that these terms (Christian, Catholic, and Protestant) are used as label far too often. A perfect example would be the previous conflicts in Northern Ireland. How often have you heard Catholic vs Protestants in that conflict? Yet it would have IMO been more accurate to speak of Irish Nationals vs British government would it not? Are most Irish nationals Catholic or come from a Catholic background? Yes. Are most British government officials and military from a Protestant background? Yes. But just because is a difference in religion doesn't make it a religious war do you think?

Whatever you think of the troubles in northern Ireland, it is really hard to make this into a religious war IMO.

Root of Jesse · Mar 13, 2014

PhillipLaSpino said:
I would like to discuss the following like Christian ladies and Gentlemen should; and because they are touchy subject, please; no name calling or sarcastic remarks. Use actual history to make a point, and stick with Scripture only!

"Are we as modern day Christian's to ignore the bloody history of the Church that is from Christ ascension to today, and the affect it has had on the Jewish people?

Has the church in the past acted with love to the Jews, or has it acted like a poacher, a hunter of men, those who track their pray in order to steal what belongs to him, and to than exterminate them?

Do we agree with those that are anti-Semite? Do you think the church is attempting to steal the blessing promised by God to the Jews? And lastly, would you rather call Israel Palestine? These are some of the subjects I would like to consider on this tread. Discuss one or all if you choose. I know there are strong feeling on the subjects posted, but if we don't discuss these issues like Christians should, how can we learn?

Phil LaSpino

First, you'd have to prove your assertion, that the Church from the Ascension to today, has a bloody past, the way you suggest. Has there been blood shed? Yes! Wrongly? Yes! We're a Church of sinners. There have been much worse persecutions of Christians from secular states. There has been persecution (which led to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem) of Christians by Jews.

All that aside, it was the Catholic Church in Europe during WWII that preserved and protected Jews. Some Catholics, many Catholics died protecting Jews in Europe. Many died the same way the Jews did in WWII.

Jews have been shunned by society for a long, long time, not just by Christians, but by Persians, and by secular states in Europe. That's not to say it's right.

I don't believe "the Church" ever hunted Jews down in order to kill them. I'd like to see evidence that this happened.

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