In your opinion what does it mean to be a "good christian"?

boogalaboogala said:

there is no such thing as a good christian.. you either are, or you are not..
measuring ones greatness as a christian is missing the point of christianity altogether.. we as christians are to be Christ focused. this resulting in a spirit of humility..
the man that has to ask himself if he is a good christian is most likely not saved at all..

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I agree. Anyone who characterizes themselves as good has skipped over a few verses.

Jesus said none are good but God. He wouldn't even allow Himself to be called "good".

this goodness scale the OP speaks of is how most human-beings measure things. "Am I good?"

There is no such thing. Every one of us falls short no one gets to the point of reaching righteousness.

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I don't understand what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying that no one ever does anything that could be called righteous. But this doesn't make any sense. We know that the Bible records many instances where people acted righteously. So, what it is you're trying to say here?

Selah.

I understand the confusion. Let's go scriptural then. Passage clearly says a few things:
If this is the case, then how do you justify many accounts in the old testament about "righteous" men? Job was righteous before God, Abraham was righteous before God, Noah was righteous before God.
So, for short, no - no one can be called a righteous man except by faith. Because only by faith do you lose yourself, your own pride for self-justification and allow God to justify you through his grace alone. And since we cannot WORK for our salvation, salvation cannot be our wage, as per the scripture above. It is a gift from God. Thus, a Christian cannot be GOOD, but God can RECOGNIZE him as GOOD. There is a difference.

Man is dead in sin, he cannot do anything apart from the father. Even the Son of Man, who is sinless, cannot do anything apart from the father. It is only through faith and obedience, by being part of the vine that we can be thus. When you realize this, you are on your way to being called a "good and faithful servant." (Matt 25:21)

To be a good Christian, you must believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as your Lord and Savior. Then you must love God above everything, and love your neighbours as you love yourself.

I don't mean to be rude, but I was looking for BellaVita's explanation of her own words.

Thus, a Christian cannot be GOOD, but God can RECOGNIZE him as GOOD. There is a difference.

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*Sigh* Maybe the distinction I am trying to point out is too fine for people on this thread to grasp...

As I said in an earlier post, the term "good" can be used in different ways. "Good" can be used to mean "excelling at" or "skilled" or "better than." "Good" is also used to refer to the moral-ness of an act. Most of the posters to this thread are fussing over the moral meaning of the word "good" and pointing out, as you have, that there is "none righteous, no, not one." I'm not suggesting otherwise.

Maybe it would help to clarify where I'm coming from to ask this question: Are there bad Christians? Is the Christian who gossips endlessly, and causes strife among fellow believers, and for months on end neglects to spend time in prayer and study of God's Word a bad Christian? Is the Christian who sits in a pew on Sunday but sits drunk on a bar stool the rest of the week a bad Christian? Is the Christian who sells drugs to kids a bad Christian? It seems quite plain to me that they are. But if there are bad Christians it stands to reason that there exists their opposite: good Christians.

I dislike what is implicit in the statement, "There are no good Christians." It suggests to me that a believer who is living with Christ as the center of their existence, who is going deeper with the Lord with every passing day, is just the same as the Christian who lives without qualm in a hypocritical and carnal way. But this is clearly not so. The former is obviously living in a better way than the latter, and inasmuch as this so, it is appropriate to acknowledge that in doing so they are "good Christians."

Selah.

Jothman said:

I've heard the term said a lot, but I am really curious what some of you think about it. What is a "good christian" in your opinion or what defines someone as being a "good christian"?

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Hello Jothman,

Being a 'good christian' can be defined as having a genuine love and thirst for the word of God through the scriptures of the KJV Bible. A good Christian will take pleasure in Gods words and commands and seek to follow the Christian doctrines in the epistles of Paul.

Being a good Christian really isnt as difficult as some would have you believe. Religion and faith are two separates and lets remember we are saved through faith and not works.

God knows the struggles we will encounter with sin. Being in good fellowship with God through the KJV Bible and through prayer is a good foundation for any believer!

God Bless

Christian's are not Good, God is good. Christians have the opportunity to share in that goodness because of Jesus's work on the cross. But it is not theirs to take ownership of. We share in his holiness because of his goodness and mercy, so no one can boast. It's a gift. And amen for that.

Jothman said:

I've heard the term said a lot, but I am really curious what some of you think about it. What is a "good christian" in your opinion or what defines someone as being a "good christian"?

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There is nothing as such anywhere. No one is good but God. Even Jesus said it.
But for the grace of God is who/what/how we are today. That is what we all have. GRACE.
Any christian who boasts that they are good or better than others is probably a bit delusional.
Only for the Grace of God, we are who we are. If anyone will boast, let them boast in the Lord

Luke 18:18-19
18 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Bible commentators point out that Jesus was drawing attention to his divinity in this exchange, not teaching that it is impossible for anyone to claim to be good. Essentially, Jesus was suggesting to the young ruler that he ought to have a higher view of who Jesus was. Certainly, Scripture itself defeats the idea that no one but God can be called good.

Matthew 12:35
35A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things...

Luke 8:15
15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience.

Luke 23:50
50 Now behold, there was a man named Joseph, a council member, a good and just man.

Acts 11:22-24
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.

Romans 5:7
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.

Hebrews 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Job 2:3
3 Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause."

It is unfortunate how Christians fixate on a phrase in Scripture and employ it out of context and in such a sweeping manner that it becomes unreasonable and silly. This has happened in this thread. Be careful, brothers and sisters, to handle God's Word well.


Selah.

This has become a debate. And for that I cannot commend it anymore. So it was not really theological but was mere wordplay. Hermeneutics of the word good in Greek, unfortunately has a large amount of meanings... from excellence in nature, morality, appearance or even competency in skill. It's only possible to discern the true meaning of the passage by context.

Romans 3 speaks of the impossibility of man's moral goodness. While the many passages posted do say "good," take note that the Bible is written by men who shared God's perspective, not the world's. Those words reflect what is good within God's eyes.

I bid you to also be careful what you speak when regarding scripture. Especially on the effect of what you say, not merely what you say it is. Words are never empty. What do you wish to accomplish, to say that Man can be Good? What will be its effect on Christians? Will it create pride? Will it create self righteousness and Phariseeism? Will it create judgement? All these are bad fruits. All these are the elements that Christ condemned among the teachers of the law - of self-worship. All this for a debate on words? What is more important is that we focus on God's goodness and not our own - and that is the focus of people in this thread: that Man's goodness is impossible outside God! Look to the words and see that we are actually saying the same thing - that Man cannot be Good outside the goodness that God gives him. Grace not works.

To be righteous in front of God, first you must be humble. You must understand yourself as a sinner. You must repent. You must realize how small you are compared to God. All the people you quoted in passages had this element. Then, yes you can grow, you can be sanctified through your relationship with Him, yes, you can be made holy. But note that all scriptures on sanctification requires God and the Holy Spirit to do it for you! You cannot do it on your own. A single word "good" is not enough to define these people, not Job, not Noah, not Abraham, not Joseph, not the disciples - for they had also the element of humility and self-denial and complete surrender of their selves to the Spirit's nature. Whosoever loses himself for his sake are those who can inherit the Kingdom. How can you do this if we keep focusing on Man's goodness and not God's?

I surely wonder what the reason is for such passionate defense on Man's goodness when scripture clearly says otherwise. Man's moral goodness is impossible outside of God's provision. The epistles says this much. Jesus says it too. And if a few words of Biblical commentators can change your mind about what GOD himself has said, then I can say nothing else.

This has become a debate. And for that I cannot commend it anymore. So it was not really theological but was mere wordplay.

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Perhaps to you it was "mere wordplay" but not to me. I explained in earlier posts why I have bothered to make clarifications about the idea of a "good Christian."

Hermeneutics of the word good in Greek, unfortunately has a large amount of meanings... from excellence in nature, morality, appearance or even competency in skill. It's only possible to discern the true meaning of the passage by context.

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Yes, and?

What do you wish to accomplish, to say that Man can be Good?

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As the verses I posted indicate, the Bible says this. I posted the verses I did to show how misconstrued by Christians the exchange between Christ and the Rich Young Ruler has become. I haven't actually been saying that "man can be good." What I have been trying to explain is that there is such a thing as a good - and a bad - Christian. Let me repeat myself:

I dislike what is implicit in the statement, "There are no good Christians." It suggests to me that a believer who is living with Christ as the center of their existence, who is going deeper with the Lord with every passing day, is just the same as the Christian who lives without qualm in a hypocritical and carnal way. But this is clearly not so. The former is obviously living in a better way than the latter, and inasmuch as this so, it is appropriate to acknowledge that in doing so he/she is a "good Christian."

What will be its effect on Christians? Will it create pride? Will it create self righteousness and Phariseeism? Will it create judgement? All these are bad fruits.

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And I suggest to you that lumping mature, godly believers in with hypocritical and carnal ones by saying "There are no good Christians" creates the impression that spiritual growth is pointless, that no matter how fully a person enters into holy, faithful fellowship with God they remain essentially a corrupt, foolish and weak spiritual babe. The declaration that "There are no good Christians" may make the carnal, fleshly Christian feel more comfortable with their sinful stumbling walk with the Lord, less obliged to move forward into a deeper, more holy life in Christ, but it does so by denigrating the example of mature, godly believers.

All these are the elements that Christ condemned among the teachers of the law - of self-worship.

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This is just silly. No where in any of my posts have I encouraged "self-worship." I have, though, urged people to understand that being a follower of Christ entails a process of maturation that distinguishes a godly, stable seasoned Christian - a good Christian - from one who is fleshly, and hypocritical, and spiritually immature (a.k.a.: a bad Christian).

All this for a debate on words?

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Hardly. My purpose was to encourage people to think more carefully about the "truths" they champion. As in this case, careful thought has not generally been applied to the statement "There are no good Christians."

What is more important is that we focus on God's goodness and not our own - and that is the focus of people in this thread: that Man's goodness is impossible outside God!

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*Sigh* You really haven't thought this all through, have you? Consider, then, the following:

Romans 2:13-15
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
14for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

The question is sometimes asked, "Are atheists immoral people? Are they incapable, because of their atheism, of doing moral or good things?" Well, as the apostle Paul points out in the passage above, even unbelieving Gentiles "do by nature the things in the law" because they have the "law written on their hearts." Atheists do good things, moral things, all the time. Atheists can be helpful, kind, generous, loving and courageous. They can be highly moral people. But this completely contradicts your statement that "Man's goodness is impossible outside God." In fact, it is not impossible. People are good outside of God quite often. So what does God mean when He says to us in His Word that "all our righteousness is as filthy rags?" Is He saying we never do good or moral things? Of course not! That would be obviously untrue. What He is saying is that our goodness is tainted by our sin-nature, that it arises out of the wrong motive, and that, because our righteousness is not absolutely consistent, it falls short of His perfect, holy standard. We may do a good thing by giving a thirsty person a glass of water but we may do it for ultimately selfish reasons and/or for reasons that have no connection to honoring God. This doesn't make the act of giving a thirsty person water an evil thing, but it does make our reasons for doing so corrupt and thus unacceptable to God.

Look to the words and see that we are actually saying the same thing - that Man cannot be Good outside the goodness that God gives him. Grace not works.

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See above.

To be righteous in front of God, first you must be humble. You must understand yourself as a sinner. You must repent. You must realize how small you are compared to God. All the people you quoted in passages had this element. Then, yes you can grow, you can be sanctified through your relationship with Him, yes, you can be made holy.

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Brother, God's goal is to make us perfectly righteous. This is the only way we can gain acceptance with God. And there is no possibility we will ever be so in and of ourselves. God must impute the perfect righteousness of Christ to us, which He does when He spiritually regenerates us at the moment of our conversion. Without this forensic justification by God, we may do good things, we may be moral people, but it will never be enough to satisfy a perfectly holy God.

Whosoever loses himself for his sake are those who can inherit the Kingdom. How can you do this if we keep focusing on Man's goodness and not God's?

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I have never suggested that anyone "focus on man's goodness." But it serves no useful purpose to assert what is false. Godless people do good things all the time. This is the truth of the matter. Godless people help others, they do self-sacrificing things, they are generous and kind. Their goodness does not meet God's standard but this doesn't mean the good they do is, therefore, somehow evil.

I surely wonder what the reason is for such passionate defense on Man's goodness when scripture clearly says otherwise.

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I am objecting to superficial thinking, not defending Man's goodness.

Man's moral goodness is impossible outside of God's provision. The epistles says this much.

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See above.

Jesus says it too. And if a few words of Biblical commentators can change your mind about what GOD himself has said, then I can say nothing else.

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What you understand of God's Word and what these commentators understand of it are two significantly different things. I'm sorry to have to say so, but you wade in the shallows while they swim in the deep. And this has been revealed in the things you have asserted in your last post. Maybe in future you shouldn't be so quick to assert your understanding of Scripture above that of men who have made it their life's work to know and understand God's Word.

Selah.

goodness is a scale people use.. it's as common as hair. it's not this debate you guys are creating.