Is anybody that accepts "Christ" considered a "Christian"?

Avodat said:

Who said it was Christianity?

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Who said it wasn't a valid form of Judaism.

visionary said:

Who said it wasn't a valid form of Judaism.

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No idea!

MessianicMommy said:

I'm not certain what you are fishing for in your post.

Other than some differences in beliefs and practice, the meaning of "Christian" and "Messianic" is pretty much synonymous. It means someone who follows Messiah.

So, if you "accept Christ" and follow him... yeah.

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Right there with ya.

And really, it does seem to be a bit of a false scenario whenever people try to divorce Christian from Messianic since early Jewish believers did the same. Judaism can exist without Christianity, even though Christianity cannot exist without Judaism since it was born from it/had aspects of its foundation in it.

Early Jewish Christianity is was always seen as a form of Judaism - even though the form of Judaism it was got deemed "Christianity" - and there was a difference between Jewish Christianity (which is what Messianic Judaism is about) and Gentile Christianity....the form that later developed in the early centuries of the Church where much of the Jewish/Hebraic side was eradicated in the name of the Lord.

For good review on the matter from a Jewish Christian perspective, one may consider the following:

• Father Bernstein Finds the Jews | The Groom's Family

One may also consider Jewish Christianity in apostolic times: A native Jewish Church ).


Another that does a good job addressing the issue is Nazarene Jewish Christianity: from the end of the New Testament Until Its Disappearance in the Fourth Century (Studia Post-Biblica)... By Ray Pritz. This work concerns a comprehensive study of the heirs of the earliest Jerusalem church, their history and doctrines, their relations with both synagogue and the growing Gentile church...with the author analyzing all sources, Jewish, Christian, and pagan, which can throw light on the sect and its ultimate mysterious disappearance). Additionally, another resource is an E-Book that is freely available, entitled "The History Of Jewish Christianity: From the First to the Twentieth Century" by Hugh J Schonfield. Schonfield was a Jew who termed himself a "Nazarene," meaning that he believed, as a Jew, that the Messiah, as predicted in Judaism's Hebrew Bible, had come in the person of Jesus/Yeshua. Most of his earlier works are what many Messianic Jews have advocated.


It is really a false argument if/when people say "Well, I can't be Messianic if I'm a Christian since that says all Christians are Messianic!!!!" - for that avoids the logic that just because you belong in a dominant camp doesn't mean all variations within that camp look the same....similar to saying that just because penguins and peacocks and eagles all dwell within the camp of the Avian world doesn't mean that aquatic/flightless birds are the same as those who can fly. They simply are in the same camp and with variation.

For another example, one can consider the ways that man is related to apes. Secifically, Under the Scientific classification of Anthropoids:
The other "tribe" under Homininae is: Panini, Species: Chimpanzees. Humans are different for other primates in that we don't have an insulating layer of hair - allowing us to control body temperature through sweating. AND Our females go through a menopause sometime quite early in life, while other primates don't. And this wouldn't be an issue for "Creationists" in any way. Dr. Porsche built the original "Bebe" Renault, and the Economy models of the early Mercedes rear engine vehicles - AND the Volkswagens (in 1939). When one looks at the "guts" of the three (and of others he did) one can see a distinctive commonality of design, and similar features among all three - making it clear that the same "thought process" produced all three vehicles. BUT Nobody would try to prove that a Volkswagen was a "Bebe Renault" - but could easily demonstrate that the same "creator" was involved in both of 'em.


Likewise, a Messianic being deemed as a Christian doesn't mean that all flavors of Christian are Messianic....just as it's not the case that Catholics (i.e. Roman, Maronite, Melkite, etc.) are not the same as other Christians like Methodists or Pentecostals, even though they are all Christians. Each have differing designs and many things overlap - including in regards to what's said in Messianic Judaism....but trying to act as if the Creator/Messiah was not involved in any except one would ot be accurate - nor would it be accurate to say all had to look the same in order to make Messianic Judaism valid.

ChavaK said:

That does not negate the fact that accepting Jesus as messiah/savior means that Messianics/Christians have a shared faith-which centers on Jesus.

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That - and the fact that it has never been the case that Christians all over have said that the Lord is not the promised Jewish Messiah, as it has been noted for centuries since the early Church that Yeshua came as the Jewish Messiah to bring salvation to the Jews - as WELL as to the Gentiles (i.e. "A Light unto the Gentiles, Isaiah 42 ).

Even Jews in the secular world - who do not believe Yeshua is Messiah and yet are dedicated to Judaism - have noted the reality of where Christianity as it was developed originally was seen as an expression of Judaism....a Judaism believing in a Divine Messiah, which was rejected earlier and yet it is now being seen as acceptable. .(more discussed here), as Judaic scholar Daniel Boyarin noted best recently)


One of the best resources on the issue is entitled Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity by Daniel Boyarin. Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity is truly one of the best around:





Daniel is the Taubman Professor of Talmudic Culture in the Departments of Near Eastern Studies and Rhetoric at the University of California, Berkeley. He is the author of Dying for God: Martyrdom and the Making of Christianity, Judaism and A Radical Jew: Paul and the Politics of Identity, and other books. In the read, Daniel does an excellent job of discussing what "Gentile Christianity” was always about in the introduction. In orienting the reader to his argument, Boyarin presents the basic assertions that the early rabbinic writings developed in response to burgeoning Gentile Christianity represented by figures like Justin Martyr. In his view, he felt that the rabbis sought to “set the bounds” of who is in and who is out of Judaism as they understood it in reaction to the claims of Gentile Christianity. Thus, within this discussion Boyarin defines the object of rabbis’ attention, Gentile Christianity, by stating:



Boyarin discusses as he does because the historical separation between Judaism and Christianity is often figured as a clearly defined break of a single entity into two separate religions - leading to the idea that there would have been one religion known as Judaism before the birth of Christ, which then took on a hybrid identity. ..with other assumptions being that certain beliefs and practices of this composite (even before its subsequent division) would have been identifiable as Christian or Jewish. Daniel Boyarin sought to make a striking case for a very different way of thinking about the historical development that is the partition of Judaeo-Christianity. For in his views, there were no characteristics or features that could be described as uniquely Jewish or Christian in late antiquity. Boyarin argues that Jesus-following Jews and Jews who did not follow Jesus lived on a cultural map in which beliefs, such as that in a second divine being, and practices, such as keeping kosher or maintaining the Sabbath, were widely and variably distributed. ..and he argues that the ultimate distinctions between Judaism and Christianity were imposed from above by "border-makers," heresiologists anxious to construct a discrete identity for Christianity. By defining some beliefs and practices as Christian and others as Jewish or heretical, they moved ideas, behaviors, and people to one side or another of an artificial border—and, Boyarin significantly contends, invented the very notion of religion. Really good stuff, IMHO...


More discussed in review of the book can be found elsewhere in one of the prominent MJish journals entitled Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo Christianity - Kesher Journal, an excellent overview by Paul L. Saal who is the rabbi of Congregation Shuvah Yisrael, Simsbury, CT and eceived smicha from the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations and has served on its steering committee for the past decade, presently as the chairperson of the Jewish Community Relations Committee. Apart from that, there are other places one can go for other reviews (i.e. here, here, etc).

And for other places:

• Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Christianity
• Euangelion: Boyarin on the definition of "Gentile Christianity"
• Boyarin, Daniel. Border Lines: The Partition of Judaeo-Chrstianity ...
• Reasons (Not) to Leave Church, Judeo-Christians | Messianic Musings...

Tishri1 said:

Lets not divorce ourselves from the rest of the Believers guys

MJs may be unique but we are not non believers and we are not un orthodox Believers

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Indeed...

ChavaK said:

My opinion, which maybe isn't worth much is that believing that the Torah is still in effect doesn't negate one calling oneself a Christian. If you accept that Jesus is the messiah, then you are a Christian. Observing Torah or not should not affect that.

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Your opinion is actually worth a good bit....

Even with Torah, there are already Christians doing just that. Ethiopian Orthodox come immediately to mind, seeing that those in that camp of OO (Ethiopian Jews included), already have high reverence for Torah. They are very concerned about Kosher (as they don't eat pork, for example), they circumsize, often worship on Saturday (or both), follow OT laws on menstration and celebrate Festivals.....so clearly a Torah observant lifestyle possible within the realms of Orthodoxy. More was discussed in one of the earlier threads entitled Messianic Judaism and Ethiopian Orthodoxy

Thus, it'd be false to say that Messianics are not the same as Christians - be it as an absolute or a rule. And it'd be wrong to use something as precious as God's Torah to divide others/say that it divides Messianics from Christians and all other people in the Body of Messiah. Yeshua never advocated that - nor did early Jewish believers, proud to be known as Disciples..or "Followers of the Way" AND as Christians (Acts 11 - with Paul/Barnabas's churches and I Peter 4 where it was seen as a badge of honor for Jews/Gentiles to be called Christians).

Even in saying "Well, Christians don't claim Judaism in their title" - the bottom line is that NEITHER DID BELIEVERS in the 1st century church/time of the apostles. It was not on their mind (even though the title could describe them in hindsight) - nor was it an issue for them to be called Christian...and the entire issue of saying "Well, Christianity comes from the Greek understanding" is inaccurate in light of how many Jewish believers in the time of Christ already interacted with the Greek world as did those in the time of the Maccabean revolt (Hellenism) - using it to their advantage when they could while walking away from it if it differed.

If saying Messianics always use the Hebrew to say the name of the Messiah, it should be acknowledged that there are many in Churches that say the Hebrew name "Yeshua" - yet they deem themselves Christian - and thus, to claim that all Christians don't use the Hebrew name or Names of the Lord wouldn't really be in line with basics in history. The same goes for others who have differing understandings of what Israel is - just as Jewish believers differed on it in the time of Yeshua.

There are way too many overlaps of Messianic culture and Non-Messianic culture to make hard fast rules/sweeping generalizations that do not fit others.

This is very negative and not accurate ... all MJs are a part of the body of Believers in Christ unless they are not believers in Christ and then they are not MJ

The SOP protects your belief system but it doesn't agree with your opinion here

Lulav said:

The Jesus part is just as much a part of shared faith as worshiping the same G-d as the Jews do, but the main difference in Christian and Messianic which I thought was spelled out in our SOF is that we believe the Torah to still be in effect that there weren't new holidays commanded but to celebrate the originals as well as Shabbat.

You can't say a Messianic is a Christian because you have to be able to reverse that to a Christian is a Messianic. Now to Jews who want to lump us all together they see us the same, however we do not and our SOF specifies that.

To wit

1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.


And
Please keep in mind that we consider Messianic Judaism to be a completely valid form of Judaismthat doesn't need the permission or affirmation from any other sect of Judaism to exist. Therefore, we don't believe it is necessary to convert to Orthodox Judaism or any other branch of Judaism to belong. Although there are different expressions of Messianic Judaism, as there are in other Judaisms, we believe Messianic Judaism; a Torah observant Judaism who believes Yeshua is the Messiah and believes the Apostolic writings hold authority, to be the true expression of Judaism that the scriptures and the God of Yisrael intended.

It doesn't say we are a form or branch of Christianity.

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Avodat said:

But bear in mind the other rules - one of which is:

Blasphemy
You will not insult or mock Christianity or any part of the Trinity-Father(God), Son(Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. Honest debate about the nature of God and Christianity is allowed, but derogatory remarks will be promptly removed.

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Thanks, Do you think I should delete part of that post or all of it?

I just went ahead and deleted it, but thanks for keeping your good eye on me, I appreciate it.

HannibalFlavius said:

Thanks, Do you think I should delete part of that post or all of it?

I just went ahead and deleted it, but thanks for keeping your good eye on me, I appreciate it.

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No problem - debate about Christianity and its beliefs etc is quite OK but not derogatory remarks. If we tell new people it can save reports and sanctions by staff. Thank you for your understanding.

Tishri1 said:

Originally Posted by Lulav

The Jesus part is just as much a part of shared faith as worshiping the same G-d as the Jews do, but the main difference in Christian and Messianic which I thought was spelled out in our SOF is that we believe the Torah to still be in effect that there weren't new holidays commanded but to celebrate the originals as well as Shabbat.

You can't say a Messianic is a Christian because you have to be able to reverse that to a Christian is a Messianic. Now to Jews who want to lump us all together they see us the same, however we do not and our SOF specifies that.
​

This is very negative and not accurate ... all MJs are a part of the body of Believers in Christ unless they are not believers in Christ and then they are not MJ

The SOP protects your belief system but it doesn't agree with your opinion here

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I'm confused here Tish, what is negative, what is not accurate? I see nothing negative in what I wrote? I was basically addressing someone who wants to lump us in with all Christianity, and Messianic Judaism as you wrote, is a valid form of Judaism which this person will adamantly deny.

Would it be better if I said that Jesus is what joins us to Christianity and Torah is what joins us to Judaism?

We are not the same as Christians because of our belief in the Torah, feasts, Sabbath, etc. We don't make the distinction that Christians have taught for centuries that 'that is for the Jews', or 'that is what the Jews do' .

Jesus is what brings us together, but Torah is what divides us.

It's a fact and not negative, if you say that is negative then you are saying all Messianics are negative against Christians. We aren't negative against them, we just don't believe as they do that 2/3 of the book is 'done away with'.

Christians is a name that comes from the Greek and the understanding of the religion is from a Greek standpoint with gentiles being given this religion and Jews are rejected.

Messianics are not afraid to use the Hebrew name, and the understanding is from a Jewish perspective that doesn't believe in supercessionism.

Traditional Jews who frequent our forum, for the most part do not like us at all, despite their protests to the contrary. They don't want us to have anything in common with them, keep the "Sabbath, celebrate 'their' holidays, eat Kosher,, etc. The bottom line that is being pushed is that since we believe in Jesus, and that is idolatry according to them, Torah keeping has nothing to do with it, we are idolaters just like Christians are.

Lulav said:

I'm confused here Tish, what is negative, what is not accurate? I see nothing negative in what I wrote? I was basically addressing someone who wants to lump us in with all Christianity, and Messianic Judaism as you wrote, is a valid form of Judaism which this person will adamantly deny.

Would it be better if I said that Jesus is what joins us to Christianity and Torah is what joins us to Judaism?

We are not the same as Christians because of our belief in the Torah, feasts, Sabbath, etc. We don't make the distinction that Christians have taught for centuries that 'that is for the Jews', or 'that is what the Jews do' .

Jesus is what brings us together, but Torah is what divides us.

It's a fact and not negative, if you say that is negative then you are saying all Messianics are negative against Christians. We aren't negative against them, we just don't believe as they do that 2/3 of the book is 'done away with'.

Christians is a name that comes from the Greek and the understanding of the religion is from a Greek standpoint with gentiles being given this religion and Jews are rejected.

Messianics are not afraid to use the Hebrew name, and the understanding is from a Jewish perspective that doesn't believe in supercessionism.

Traditional Jews who frequent our forum, for the most part do not like us at all, despite their protests to the contrary. They don't want us to have anything in common with them, keep the "Sabbath, celebrate 'their' holidays, eat Kosher,, etc. The bottom line that is being pushed is that since we believe in Jesus, and that is idolatry according to them, Torah keeping has nothing to do with it, we are idolaters just like Christians are.

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Seems to me Lulav makes some good points here.

Also, the nascent Messianic movement that begn in Acts 2, in J'lem was called The Way in the Acts, the reference to Xtianity coming at first in Acts 11, iirc.

Perhaps we should wonder what, if much of anything, has Christianity, a second-string term, to do with the The Way as originally it was referred to.

Just wondering.

You guys don't need folks from outside this forum to stir the pot you are doing it to yourselves

Do you really want to be known as non Christians here?

Do you want to redefine Christianity for the whole planet?

Sure many denominations will state that they are not like the other denominations because of XYZ and that theirs is the true "Church" or whatever but you will never see them state they are not Christian

You won't like the outcome if you keep stating this and you are doing this community a dis service

Lulav said:

Would it be better if I said that Jesus is what joins us to Christianity and Torah is what joins us to Judaism? ....

....Jesus is what brings us together, but Torah is what divides us. .....

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This is a more accurate statement - yes

Sorry to be a pedant but surely Torah doesn't divide us. A better statement would be:

Jesus is what brings us together - our view of Torah divides us.


Torah of itself does not divide it's how Christians, Messianics and Jews see it that causes the division.

Tishri1 said:

You guys don't need folks from outside this forum to stir the pot you are doing it to yourselves

Do you really want to be known as non Christians here?

Do you want to redefine Christianity for the whole planet?

Sure many denominations will state that they are not like the other denominations because of XYZ and that theirs is the true "Church" or whatever but you will never see them state they are not Christian

You won't like the outcome if you keep stating this and you are doing this community a dis service

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Well then, I guess the 3000 folks(jews) saved in Acts 2 and the 5000 folks(Jews mostly) saved in Acts 4 were not not actually saved. They are referred to as The Way and weren't defined by Paul at the time, as he was the terror of the Messianic community until his conversion in Acts 9, nor had these folks ever heard of Nicea.

I think Paul is fine based on his defense before Festus in Acts 25:8. I believe Paul is telling the truth. Luke's account of Paul under house arrest in Acts 28:30-31 would corroborate this. Most of Paul's ministry is to Gentiles, which is fine.

Nicea is ok as it is a summary of belief but approximately 290 years after the initiation of the original Messianic Jewish movement and, indeed, it is not within canon scripture verbatim per se.

Do MJs now not tie to the J'lem Jewish believers in Acts 2 as the founding event? If not, then what are you? Some come-lately club with some little Jew-flake powdered flavorings sprinkled over it?

Is chronologically honest Biblically stated fact important, or, is it more important to be men pleasers and acede to their whims out of fear?.

Perhaps, maybe, the label Messianic J'ism is a misnomer. Perhaps this MJ forum should vanish from CF rather than bear false witness. Perhaps the powers that be should dump their Rome based prejudice, admit they've been deceived and learn some plain Biblical fact.

Never have seen a Jewish inquirer searching honestly for Messiah here and coming to saving belief, never. Why does this MJ forum exist, really? For the boundless ego trips, the psuedo intellectual haggling and the spitting and hissing contests? For shame.

Do what you want.

if this is what defines Christianity then I can sort of understand why some Messianics don't like to view themselves as "Christians" per se -

from http://www.yashanet.com/library/under1.htm

The contemporary Christian mindset regarding what it calls "the Law," evolved from a Greek/Roman or "westernized" worldview and approach to studying the Bible. This was shaped by the early church fathers of the second to sixth centuries, and has been steadily reinforced since those times. When Christians hear or use the term "Law" in spiritual discussions, sermons, etc., they are thinking in a very "legal" sense, similar to how one would regard the laws we have in our secular society. Three particular ideas found in Christianity regarding "the Law," pertinent to this discussion, are:

1. Those under the Law of Moses were "under bondage," which ended with Jesus, who has set us free
2. "No one could ever do everything the law requires" -- that's why we needed Jesus
3. The law was "a curse" that Jesus came to do away with.

These three ideas may not be expressed in exactly the same words in every denomination, but the concepts are clear and present in the teachings of Protestant denominations and Catholicism.

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At the same time it feels insulting for any actual "Christians" to say that Messianics aren't Christians because that would mean in their eyes that we are not saved because of our beliefs. So that renders me torn.

Lady Bug said:

if this is what defines Christianity then I can sort of understand why some Messianics don't like to view themselves as "Christians" per se -

from Part 1

At the same time it feels insulting for any actual "Christians" to say that Messianics aren't Christians because that would mean in their eyes that we are not saved because of our beliefs. So that renders me torn.

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I wouldn't get tore up by definitions... Meaning one thing to one person and another to another person. Since our faith is not based on others.. because it is a personal relationship with God and let no man break asunder. So don't be torn by this issue...

Avodat said:

Sorry to be a pedant but surely Torah doesn't divide us. A better statement would be:

Jesus is what brings us together - our view of Torah divides us.


Torah of itself does not divide it's how Christians, Messianics and Jews see it that causes the division.

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Yes very true

I think the question is what do you want?

If you don't recognize this site or forum even,
then maybe find one that better suits your needs

aniello said:

Well then, I guess the 3000 folks(jews) saved in Acts 2 and the 5000 folks(Jews mostly) saved in Acts 4 were not not actually saved. They are referred to as The Way and weren't defined by Paul at the time, as he was the terror of the Messianic community until his conversion in Acts 9, nor had these folks ever heard of Nicea.

I think Paul is fine based on his defense before Festus in Acts 25:8. I believe Paul is telling the truth. Luke's account of Paul under house arrest in Acts 28:30-31 would corroborate this. Most of Paul's ministry is to Gentiles, which is fine.

Nicea is ok as it is a summary of belief but approximately 290 years after the initiation of the original Messianic Jewish movement and, indeed, it is not within canon scripture verbatim per se.

Do MJs now not tie to the J'lem Jewish believers in Acts 2 as the founding event? If not, then what are you? Some come-lately club with some little Jew-flake powdered flavorings sprinkled over it?

Is chronologically honest Biblically stated fact important, or, is it more important to be men pleasers and acede to their whims out of fear?.

Perhaps, maybe, the label Messianic J'ism is a misnomer. Perhaps this MJ forum should vanish from CF rather than bear false witness. Perhaps the powers that be should dump their Rome based prejudice, admit they've been deceived and learn some plain Biblical fact.

Never have seen a Jewish inquirer searching honestly for Messiah here and coming to saving belief, never. Why does this MJ forum exist, really? For the boundless ego trips, the psuedo intellectual haggling and the spitting and hissing contests? For shame.

Do what you want.

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visionary said:

I wouldn't get tore up by definitions... Meaning one thing to one person and another to another person. Since our faith is not based on others.. because it is a personal relationship with God and let no man break asunder. So don't be torn by this issue...

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This is good advice

Unfortunately some come here seeing some MJs say they are not Christians and when they post in agreement they get banned for saying MJs are not Christians

I guess I should unban them then as that is not fair

Thoughts everyone?

visionary said:

I wouldn't get tore up by definitions... Meaning one thing to one person and another to another person. Since our faith is not based on others.. because it is a personal relationship with God and let no man break asunder. So don't be torn by this issue...

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that's a good idea.