Why an eternal hell? (2)

Black36 said:

"Hell is a good place because a good God made it. It's also good because a good thing happens there, and that good thing is justice."

- Greg Koukl

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I hope that's true. Most christians don't believe there'll be any sort of justice there though.

Black36 said:

Can you give an example of this?

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The term aion in greek. "Evil" in the bible doesn't necessarily mean evil in the modern english sense either. The bible quotes God as saying "I create evil" - it probably doesn't mean evil our normal understanding of the word.

holo said:

On what grounds is torture right if God does it for eternity, but wrong if a human does it for a few years?

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because God is all knowing, and all sin is against God, all sin is not against another person.

holo said:

The term aion in greek. "Evil" in the bible doesn't necessarily mean evil in the modern english sense either. The bible quotes God as saying "I create evil" - it probably doesn't mean evil our normal understanding of the word.

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evil is not in the greek, it's calamity

Isaiah 45:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

gradyll said:

because God is all knowing, and all sin is against God, all sin is not against another person.

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So we have absolutely no way of knowing whether God is just or not. Except that He said so. Which is probably what He would say whether He was just or not. Right?

gradyll said:

evil is not in the greek, it's calamity

Isaiah 45:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the Lord, do all these things.’

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The same word in other places is translated evil, wicked, disaster, harmful, bad, grevious, adversity, trouble.

holo said:

The term aion in greek. "Evil" in the bible doesn't necessarily mean evil in the modern english sense either. The bible quotes God as saying "I create evil" - it probably doesn't mean evil our normal understanding of the word.

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Verse?

gradyll said:

because God is all knowing, and all sin is against God, all sin is not against another person.

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So infinite punishment for finite sin is just.

Again, if you believe Christ took your sin debt, why isn't he being eternally punished like you would be?

because he himself never commit a sin
there's nothing to punish

gradyll said:

because God is all knowing, and all sin is against God, all sin is not against another person.

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So... if Hitler had been all knowing, he would've been justified in murdering all those people? In fact, he should have made them suffer even more. After all, they would deserve it. You see my point.

Black36 said:

Verse?

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gradyll just quoted it

holo said:

So... if Hitler had been all knowing, he would've been justified in murdering all those people? In fact, he should have made them suffer even more. After all, they would deserve it. You see my point.

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if they were murdered for the payment of sins that they actually did against God, yes.

Armistead14 said:

So infinite punishment for finite sin is just.

Again, if you believe Christ took your sin debt, why isn't he being eternally punished like you would be?

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because the fact it was the life of an infinite God that was sacrificed, it's worth an infinity of our measly lives.

seeingeyes said:

The same word in other places is translated evil, wicked, disaster, harmful, bad, grevious, adversity, trouble.

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but not in that verse being quoted, as I already posted.

seeingeyes said:

So we have absolutely no way of knowing whether God is just or not. Except that He said so. Which is probably what He would say whether He was just or not. Right?

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Thats correct, our finite minds cannot grasp at the details of an infinite being. Accept what is revealed by revelation alone.

gradyll said:

if they were murdered for the payment of sins that they actually did against God, yes.

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They weren't, but we shouldn't feel sorry for any of them, because they deserve infinitely more suffering than a mere few years in a concentration camp.

gradyll said:

but not in that verse being quoted, as I already posted.

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But it is translated 'evil' in the KJV, ASV, Darby, and others. It's the same word used in these places:

Isaiah 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

Genesis 38:7 "But Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the LORD's sight; so the LORD put him to death."

Deut 23:9 “When you are encamped against your enemies, then you shall keep yourself from every evil thing."

And many others.

It's the same word in Hebrew.

gradyll said:

because the fact it was the life of an infinite God that was sacrificed, it's worth an infinity of our measly lives.

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That doesn't answer anything. If the wages of our sin are eternal hell, then Christ payment for that sin would have to be eternal hell. If the wages for our sin is death, I can see that Christ paid that debt.

Do you think God sees you as "measly"?

holo said:

The fate of the majority of people ever to have lived isn't so peripheral as to not even be mentioned in the OT and at best obscurely in the NT.

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There is this spelled out God is not willing that any should perish but that all would come to everlasting life. It is only through coming to faith with the salvation that is in Christ who is the only way. Yahweh our God is gracious giving chances to all, but too many harden themselves to his grace. We have responsibility to still spread the gospel of salvation in Christ, but those who do not respond in faith to God's grace remain in their sin. All sin leads to judgment for them. Christ bore judgment for sin, as God, he could do that all that one time, the redeemed are those in him who are spared, others die in their sin, the souls that die coming to death of their bodies, nothing in that is saying the souls are terminated, they enter in eternity with judgment for their sins.

holo said:

You'd have to redefine both 'life' and 'death' to have it mean anything other than, well, life and death.

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All definitions used are with all the Bible being consistent, so there is not problems of thinking parts say conflicting things.

holo said:

The bible says God will judge righteously. It also records God berating people for judging others too harshly.

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This is a straw man argument, I do not know that any of us are saying something contrary to this.

holo said:

I don't know how to get these passages to harmonize:
Revelation 14
9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

2 Thess
8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

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That is the problem seeing contrary things said with not having the right understanding with definition. Destruction along with perishing is a corruption from what any are intended to be from God's creation, it is everlasting, cut off from the presence of God where the redeemed are forever in bliss, there will be torment with no rest day or night.

Armistead14 said:

So when all bow here, is it more of a forced thing? It does say all will confess to the glory of the father, so it sounds more sincere that those on earth that confess Christ and do evil works. Not sure why God would need or want false praise.

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When the unredeemed bow confessing Christ is Lord it will not be from faith, that with which the redeemed are saved, it will rather be from seeing the truth clearly seen and having that be an overwhelming response in which they cannot do otherwise, God is so glorious. Having been without that faith and not being redeemed, doing that will not save them, and they will still face judgment.