Ag?

ByTheSpirit · May 15, 2012

Ok, so I haven't been on here for awhile, but I have a question maybe someone can answer for me. This is by no means an attempt to debate this subject with anyone, I would like to see if anyone can help me answer this. I had up until recently been attending ministry school to become a minister in the AG. I have just recently been told that since I do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture that I can not be a minister now. The Pre-Trib Rapture is one of the 4 Cardinal Doctrines in the AG and I was told they tolerate absolutely no deviation from those four main views. Why are they so strict on this, especially considering the rapture has no bearing on eternal salvation at all.

Bob Carabbio · May 15, 2012

#13: The "Blessed Hope"
The resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and their translation together with those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord is the imminent and blessed hope of the Church (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17; Romans 8:23; Titus 2:13; 1 Corinthians 15:51,52).

http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/pp_downloads/pp_4182_rapture.pdf is the 1979 "Position paper" which does state that in their opinion:

"The weight of Scripture supports a pre-Tribulation Rapture. Wherever teaching about the Second Coming occurs in the New Testament, imminence is underscored. To interpose other events before the Rapture does violence to such teaching."

"Why are they SO STRICT about it??"

Who knows. They're a denomination, and Denominations can and do create whatever "hoops" they please for their franchises, and franchisees to jump through, and are within their rights to be as "Insistant" about it as they please. They've always been pre-trib, and so will probably continue to be.

The solution, of course (as our pastor does) is to just tell the denominational bureaucrats what they want to hear to keep 'em fat and happy, and believe as you please. In this case it doesn't mean SPIT, and we all agree that He's coming for us when He's ready, and He'll be RIGHT on time!!!!!

Eschatology, after all, is nothing more than "Rank Speculation" anyway. We go along with the "Important Stuff" in orthodox Christianity, so no big deal.

I'm pre-trib personally in a "Knee Jerk" way. HEY!! - The Baptists taught me about it 50 years ago when I got saved, and since it's never been important to me, I never bothered to look too deeply into the alternatives. Since I'm going on 70, and after 12 heart attacks, 2 open hearts, and 16 stents - it's likely that I'll die before any of it actually occurs anyway. That way I get to watch the "Action" from the other side of the sky.

I'm an Elected Deacon in an AoG church, and there are SEVERAL of the "magic 16" that I don't really support. I don't wear it on my shirt sleeve, but if ASKED, I tell 'em what I think, and let the chips fall where they may. Oh Well!

SInce the AoG isn't really much of a "Pentecostal Denomination" in the U.S. any more anyway, there's some "adjustments" in process, so I understand, to make our "Beliefs" a bit more consistent with our "Reality".

ByTheSpirit · May 15, 2012

I understand about the being a denomination thing, and completely respect that. My issue with it is, if I ever get put in a position to lead a congregation as Pastor, or similar function/position, I can not in all honesty compromise my scriptural integrity for the sake of denominational conformity. Meaning I will not teach one thing when I believe in another because my denom says so. Or I will not avoid teaching on a subject to soothe the savage beasts of bureaucracy. Not to be confrontational about it to anyone, or even rebellious, I just personally think that I can not continue my studies in the AG if it means I have to be silent on an issue that I firmly believe will be thrust upon most of us much sooner than expected.

stormdancer0 · May 15, 2012

You may have to "bite the bullet" so to speak, and go to a different denomination. There are a couple of things about the CoG beliefs that I do not agree with, but none that are important enough for me to give up my ordination. I would, however, in a heartbeat, if they were to suddenly decide the denomination no longer supports Biblical teaching. The papers on the wall are for man's sake. If God has called you, He wants you to work for Him, not for a specific denomination.

ByTheSpirit · May 15, 2012

stormdancer0 said:
You may have to "bite the bullet" so to speak, and go to a different denomination. There are a couple of things about the CoG beliefs that I do not agree with, but none that are important enough for me to give up my ordination. I would, however, in a heartbeat, if they were to suddenly decide the denomination no longer supports Biblical teaching. The papers on the wall are for man's sake. If God has called you, He wants you to work for Him, not for a specific denomination.

Amen. I only found out at my last ministry class. The district super-intendant was the teacher and said that they have had several ordained ministers lose credentials over the rapture doctrine. Seeing how I pay out of my pocket for that stuff I can't continue if I know I will just lose that ordination eventually. I just think it's ridiculous that they would prohibit ministers from serving because of a doctrine that does not even deal with the eternal destination of souls. But I guess they are a denomination and have that right to impose that type of thing on their ministers, but God will provide a way for me to minister other than that because I know that's what He wants and I serve Him, not the AG.

Kensington7 · May 16, 2012

onlybygrace84 said:
Amen. I only found out at my last ministry class. The district super-intendant was the teacher and said that they have had several ordained ministers lose credentials over the rapture doctrine. Seeing how I pay out of my pocket for that stuff I can't continue if I know I will just lose that ordination eventually. I just think it's ridiculous that they would prohibit ministers from serving because of a doctrine that does not even deal with the eternal destination of souls. But I guess they are a denomination and have that right to impose that type of thing on their ministers, but God will provide a way for me to minister other than that because I know that's what He wants and I serve Him, not the AG.

As a church, they need to be in agreement as to doctrine and biblical issues. You can't have every pulpit preaching or teaching something different to a whole denomination. That would be totally hypocritical.

For you now, it's the Pretrib matter, for someone else it may be about the infilling of the Holy Spirit, for another, it could be divorce or abortion. Think about it.

Another thing, if you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, how will you teach on it in the pulpit? They soundly believe it. You, not so much. They place you in one of their churches to teach their doctrine... do you? Or do you teach what you believe?

If you teach what they agree on, you lie, if you teach something else, you stand in their pulpit and teach against them. I'm sorry, but they are right. If you don't believe in their doctrines, you have no business with their ordination.

It would be no different than a priest getting up and saying abortion is OK in the Sunday mass.

ByTheSpirit · May 16, 2012

Nah, you are right and I admit I am venting a bit. I do understand preachers should be in agreement with denominational views, so that is why I am leaving the AG. Looking for an Independent Pentecostal church. In the meantime I am seeking the Lord's will concerning the ministry. It has been suggested I start my own congregation, but I refused until I know the Lord is leading that way. I can not subject myself to a denomination, some may see that as a rebellious spirit, but I just don't think denominations are the solution to the churches problems. Especially when Pentecostals say Baptists and all are unscriptural, Methodists do, Baptists do, etc. Each swears they are right and the others are unscriptural. No cooperation, well barely any. Jesus prayed all His followers would be one like He and the Father. Sorry ranted a bit, you are right, but I still think its extreme to strip a preacher of credentials for rapture doctrine.

Kensington7 · May 16, 2012

Huh? AG's do not think that Baptists are unscriptural. Not at all. We are military and when moving many times in 26 years we have found ourselves in need of a church and not close to or finding an AG church to attend. We have attended a Baptist church. They preach the word.

I've never heard an AG preacher say a word against the Baptists from the pulpit or at all. Not in more than 30 years being saved and attending churches across America.

stormdancer0 · May 16, 2012

You don't have to go to a "Pentecostal" church. There are charismatic Baptist churches, Presbyterian ones, even Catholic ones. Many denominations are accepting of the Spiritual Gifts now.

dayhiker · May 16, 2012

Back in the 80's I came to believe that they NT didn't teach the emanate return of Christ. At the time I have Christian Workers Papers. They have since changed the name of that position. So I didn't check that I believed that any more. They ask me to give them in writing why. I have them a 12 page paper explaining what I thought each scripture was saying. It was my understanding the the paper was read by the highest people in Springfield. They didn't come back saying anything was wrong with my thinking. They just asked me write a paper saying I wouldn't make it a controversial thing. Which I didn't want to do anyways.
So I kept my papers till I moved on to the Vineyard. No problem. Now they might be stricter with ordained ministers.

Bob Carabbio · May 16, 2012

"But I guess they are a denomination and have that right to impose that type of thing on their ministers"

BINGO!!!

but then the question becomes, when you jump the AoG ship, and cozy up to Another denomination - that you can't "Support 100%" - what then??

You could always be a "Charismatic Methodist"!!! They'll go along with anything, and you can be as fundamentalistic as you feel like.

ByTheSpirit · May 17, 2012

The point is not that I think I could ever agree 100% with a denom... That is why I am going non-denom. I am just upset I have spent so much on education with the AG to find that out now. I mean, I can't argue with their methods, they can do as they want. Like I said before Im just upset things didn't work out, but the LORD will open doors for me to minister outside of denominational boundaries, if that is His will. Denominations are man's creation and I want nothing to do with them from now on.

agrevbuzz · May 22, 2012

I am an ordained AG minister. BTW if you don't mind me asking which school are you attending. I went to Southwestern. As far as the big 16 go, there is wiggle room. My advice to you is this. I too have issues with the big 16. For one, I believe that there might, just might be something other than toungues that can be initial evidence. (let me tell you that is bigger than pre trib in ag circles). Further in the course of my studies, I have come to a view on eternal security that is different than the AG statetments and doctrines. And, I too don't believe the rapture will be pre-trib. Further, I totally disagree with the changes made in the big 16 at the last general council (or was it two ago) concerning the mission of the church and the nature of ministry (adding the social gospel aspects to it). To that end, I write a big paper every time I renew my credentials and we are ok.
Denominational covering is important in my view in that we need to have authority over us as we have authority over others. Yes, I have known some that made an issue of these things and lost their credentials, but I have also known effective ministers who majored on the aggreements and not on the disagreements and were able to keep their papers.

To that end my advice is don't go off and leave the AG simply because of one doctrinal issues. Your viewpoints are in flux right now (believe my when I graduated I could honestly say I believed in the big 16 wholeheartedly) with further study, you may change your mind, or not. What's important in your issue and what you can teach and preach is that Jesus is coming back. Just like he said he would, he will return. When? Only God knows. The AG doesn't have all the truth any more than any other group does, but it is a good orginization led by Godly and Fair men. Just my two cents worth.

ByTheSpirit · May 22, 2012

agrevbuzz said:
I am an ordained AG minister. BTW if you don't mind me asking which school are you attending. I went to Southwestern. As far as the big 16 go, there is wiggle room. My advice to you is this. I too have issues with the big 16. For one, I believe that there might, just might be something other than toungues that can be initial evidence. (let me tell you that is bigger than pre trib in ag circles). Further in the course of my studies, I have come to a view on eternal security that is different than the AG statetments and doctrines. And, I too don't believe the rapture will be pre-trib. Further, I totally disagree with the changes made in the big 16 at the last general council (or was it two ago) concerning the mission of the church and the nature of ministry (adding the social gospel aspects to it). To that end, I write a big paper every time I renew my credentials and we are ok.
Denominational covering is important in my view in that we need to have authority over us as we have authority over others. Yes, I have known some that made an issue of these things and lost their credentials, but I have also known effective ministers who majored on the aggreements and not on the disagreements and were able to keep their papers.

To that end my advice is don't go off and leave the AG simply because of one doctrinal issues. Your viewpoints are in flux right now (believe my when I graduated I could honestly say I believed in the big 16 wholeheartedly) with further study, you may change your mind, or not. What's important in your issue and what you can teach and preach is that Jesus is coming back. Just like he said he would, he will return. When? Only God knows. The AG doesn't have all the truth any more than any other group does, but it is a good orginization led by Godly and Fair men. Just my two cents worth.

Thanks so much for your words. To be honest with you though, I don't know if I put this in my original post, but the main reason I am leaving the AG was I was told by my pastor that I was under God's curse for believing in and teaching false doctrine (post-trib) He told me that I needed to be strictly in conformity to the "Big 16" especially the 4 cardinal doctrines. So I decided to just go non-denomination. I don't want those type of petty issues distracting me from the ministry. But I know that issues will arise wherever I may go and serve, I am just choosing this as my course as I believe it best according to the plan God has given me. I know if He wants me in the AG again He will turn situations around to such.

ReformedPharisee · May 26, 2012

onlybygrace84 said:
Ok, so I haven't been on here for awhile, but I have a question maybe someone can answer for me. This is by no means an attempt to debate this subject with anyone, I would like to see if anyone can help me answer this. I had up until recently been attending ministry school to become a minister in the AG. I have just recently been told that since I do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture that I can not be a minister now. The Pre-Trib Rapture is one of the 4 Cardinal Doctrines in the AG and I was told they tolerate absolutely no deviation from those four main views. Why are they so strict on this, especially considering the rapture has no bearing on eternal salvation at all.

My first point is this: Have you received the call by God to be a minister? You know if you have, because that call does not come to you without confirmation from others, telling you or asking you if you know that God has called you into the ministry. If you have not...(don't take this wrong)...then you have no business trying to be a minister in that respects.

The pulpits of todays church is filled with people (well-intentioned or not) who do not have the call of God on their lives to be a minister, and the church is suffering greatly for it. There are other ministries that the well-intentioned person can enter into, but they have no business in pulpit ministry.

Second: if you have the call of God on your life, don't worry about what a man-made denomination says about it. If God has called you, then you do not need man's approval or schooling, you just need to study the Word, spend a lot of time with God in prayer and quiet time, and God will lead you to where He wants you to be, and He will open the doors for ministry wherever He wants you to be.

Blessings!

Bob Carabbio · May 26, 2012

"I was told by my pastor that I was under God's curse for believing in and teaching false doctrine (post-trib)"

Well congrats!! You apparently had a 5-star hyper-legalistic Jacka$$ for a pastor. I've been in the AoG now for almost 50 years, and there have been a few along the way that would have served the Kingdom much better if they'd been used car salesmen instead.

But HEY!! People are people, and some people suffer from oral diahrrea.

agrevbuzz appears to have a well-balanced outlook.

Our guy is out of SAGU also (since we're only about 20 minutes from the School in DeSoto), and As I said, he's not necessarily "on board with the 16 either" - and our Associate pastor has AoG Papers - but he's post grad at Dallas Theological Institute - makes for interesting theological discussions in Sunday School.

parsley · Jun 5, 2012

To that end my advice is don't go off and leave the AG simply because of one doctrinal issues.

Good set of advice on training.

Churches have been into branding these days, almost as much as businesses have. A decade ago, churches mushed into each other with doctrine, so it was hard to tell what was what. I think the move for branding is trying to define boundaries better and retain original character.

With branding in mind, don't take it personally. They want to deliver a defined product, and communicate a consistent message. That may disappear in a few years when something else becomes important. Promise them that you will present their denomination as closely as you can, if you commit yourself to representing them. It's not that much different than working for another company, but seems like it should be much more a personal belief.

I hope you find a good fit and solution.

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