Islam Pagan

BruceDLimber · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
You have to stop reading the Qur'an and those Baha'i scripture, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc.. They are false prophets and/or teachers.

Only in your not-so-humble opinion.

And you're STILL ignoring the fact that Susan has a Ph. D. (IOW, a doctorate) in Mid-Eastern studies and is a university professor.

It is therefore HER JOB to read and know all this stuff and to be able to discuss it intelligently!

So you gain no points for telling her she needs to be ignorant.

Got that now, I hope?

Bruce

Arthra · May 9, 2012

Jonathan wrote in response to smaneck:

Christianity was not once a cult. You didn't feel the presence of God. The presence of God is not in a place like Baha'i gardens. Unless something by God was about to happen, like a conversion to Jesus. Baha'i has doctrines of demons, so the presence of God is not there unless something like I said was about happen, or similar. It's The Holy Spirit that gives the presence of God. Baha'i people aren't led by the Holy Spirit, if they follow, teach doctrines of false teachers and/or prophets like Baha'u'llah Muhammad etc.

My comment:

Oh dear..Jonathan is tooting his horn again...! Which horn it is I'm unsure...

Look up the word cult Jonathan:

Definition of CULT

1
: formal religious veneration : worship

2
: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also: its body of adherents

3
: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents

4
: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>

5
a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially: such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

Where's the "mutual respect' Jonathan? Always playing the "demon" card I see... Give it a break Jonathan...

"In reality thou art spiritually hungry and athirst for the Water of Life. Therefore I send thee spiritual food and bestow upon thee the Water of Life Eternal. That food is the divine advices and exhortations revealed in the Tablets and the spiritual outpourings of the breath of the Holy Spirit. I hope ere long it will reach thee and thou wilt behold what an exhilaration and beatitude it produceth and what cheerfulness and serenity and what heavenly emotions it createth!"

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1)

LoAmmi · May 9, 2012

Arthra said:
Where's the "mutual respect' Jonathan? Always playing the "demon" card I see... Give it a break Jonathan...

"Demon" seems like a scapegoat used here for anything that is not understandable or different.

Jonathan95 · May 9, 2012

BruceDLimber said:
What you overlook is that God updates His teachings to us periodically, and His newest teachings make quite explicit what I said above! Further, I will add this:

That's not biblical.

"Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
--(From a letter written on behalf of the head of the Baha'i Faith to an individual believer, November 14, 1947.)

Well not sure if it's biblical.

These doctrines do indeed exist, but what they in fact SAY is that because God is One, Supreme, and has no rival or equal! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with Him.

Wrong. I've heard Satan twice. Smith Wigglesworth saw Satan once sitting in his bedroom, and he just turned over to sleep. So he exists. Also, I know a deliverance minster (among other things), who saw Satan, as a lion in her room, and he pounced her, and she could feel the fur against her cheek.

1 Peter 5:8
Be well balanced (temperate, sober of mind), be vigilant and cautious at all times; for that enemy of yours, the devil, roams around like a lion roaring [ in fierce hunger], seeking someone to seize upon and devour.

Further, "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.

That's unbiblical, so that's not true.

If you don't believe Satan exists, you also have to reject the story when Jesus was tempted by Satan in the desert. What you are saying is unbiblical, thus it's false.

Matthew 4:1
Then Jesus was led (guided) by the [Holy] Spirit into the wilderness (desert) to be tempted (tested and tried) by the devil.

If you don't believe Satan exists, you have to reject hell exists. Jesus went there and proclaimed victory over Satan and lost souls, and that the Rich man went there.

Matthew 12:40
For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:18-22
18 For Christ [the Messiah Himself] died for sins once [a]for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit,
19 In which He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 [The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God’s patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through water.(A)
21 And baptism, which is a figure [of their deliverance], does now also save you [from inward questionings and fears], not by the removing of outward body filth [bathing], but by [providing you with] the answer of a good and clear conscience (inward cleanness and peace) before God [because you are demonstrating what you believe to be yours] through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
22 [And He] has now entered into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with [all] angels and authorities and powers made subservient to Him.

The Rich Man:

Luke 16:23-25
23 And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.

Also proves Abraham's God wasn't the God of the Qur'an who chose Muhammad.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is are encouraged to investigate all religions, and to appreciate truth no matter where it is found.

Truth is not found in doctrines of demons like Qur'an has and Baha'u'llah, etc. I've already proven it by scripture that it's both Sinful and false.

Jonathan95 · May 9, 2012

Arthra said:
3
: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also: its body of adherents

Baha'i is unorthodox.

Where's the "mutual respect' Jonathan? Always playing the "demon" card I see... Give it a break Jonathan...

2 Timothy 3:16
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),

"In reality thou art spiritually hungry and athirst for the Water of Life. Therefore I send thee spiritual food and bestow upon thee the Water of Life Eternal. That food is the divine advices and exhortations revealed in the Tablets and the spiritual outpourings of the breath of the Holy Spirit. I hope ere long it will reach thee and thou wilt behold what an exhilaration and beatitude it produceth and what cheerfulness and serenity and what heavenly emotions it createth!"

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1)

Baha'u'llah doesn't bestow Water of Life or provide spiritual food.

BruceDLimber said:
Only in your not-so-humble opinion.

And you're STILL ignoring the fact that Susan has a Ph. D. (IOW, a doctorate) in Mid-Eastern studies and is a university professor.

It is therefore HER JOB to read and know all this stuff and to be able to discuss it intelligently!

So you gain no points for telling her she needs to be ignorant.

Got that now, I hope?

Bruce

She's not ignorant if she doesn't study doctrines of demons. Also, I just gave The Word of God.

2 Timothy 3:16
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God’s will in thought, purpose, and action),

Jonathan95 · May 9, 2012

I forgot.. Do Muslims believe in Jesus resurrection, and do Baha'i people believe in it? I notice how much I use "Baha'i people", like it was a TRIBE, lol.

Romans 10:9
Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Arthra · May 9, 2012

Jonathan ...Jonathan.. beloved of David!

18:3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

(King James Bible, 1 Kings)

Give it a break...!

Jonathan95 · May 9, 2012

I still have no answers to my questions about Muslims and Baha'i about Jesus being God etc. If Muslims don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh, they are Anti-Christ (1 John 4:3).

1 John 5:20
And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.

LoAmmi · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
I still have no answers to my questions about Muslims and Baha'i about Jesus being God etc. If Muslims don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh, they are Anti-Christ (1 John 4:3).

One of the biggest ways anything can turn me off is for it to say "if you aren't with us, you're against us". The New Testament has that in spades where I don't find the same to be true in the Tanakh. The Jewish people are a separate people, but I don't see where it says we should be against everybody else. In fact, we are to treat the stranger as a native born.

LoAmmi · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
Wrong. I've heard Satan twice. Smith Wigglesworth saw Satan once sitting in his bedroom, and he just turned over to sleep. So he exists. Also, I know a deliverance minster (among other things), who saw Satan, as a lion in her room, and he pounced her, and she could feel the fur against her cheek.

Satan is a singular being that can only be in one place at a time, correct?

smaneck · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
Christianity was not once a cult.

Do you even know what a cult is?

You didn't feel the presence of God. The presence of God is not in a place like Baha'i gardens.

It is sad how in order to feel secure in your own religion you have to deny the experience of others.

Baha'i has doctrines of demons

LOL. The Baha'i Faith does not even believe in demons.

They don't believe in him.

I don't have to read John's Gospel to find out whether Muslims believe in Christ. The Qur'an tells me that.

The bible makes it clear Muhammad is a false prophet.

Nonsense.

Mark 13:22
False Christs (Messiahs) and false prophets will arise and show signs and [work] miracles to deceive and lead astray, if possible, even the elect (those God has chosen out for Himself).

That doesn't mean there won't be real ones.

I don't have a blog, and I don't hate people.

I'm not talking about your own blog, I'm talking about the hate blogs you are cutting and pasting from.

1. Do Muslims believe Jesus is God? (John 1:1, John 8:24, Phil 2:6)

Generally, no, though they do accept he is the Word of God as John 1:1 states. Shi'ites would accept He is a Manifestation of God. Phil 2:6 says Jesus in the form of God, not the essence. I'm not sure why you think John 8:24 is relevant. I would presume that the reference to "he" is to the Messiah.

It is true that John's Gospel appears to stress the divinity of Christ more than others but these passages need to be read in the context of John 10:24

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, I have said you are gods[a]? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God cameand Scripture cannot be set aside 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, I am Gods Son?

3. Do they believe in the atonement? (Rom 3:25, 1 Cor 6:11, Heb 2:17)?

No, because most Muslims don't believe Jesus was crucified. Personally, I think this is a result of a misunderstanding of a particular verse of the Qur'an.

4. Imputation of divine righteousness to the ungodly through faith alone apart from any works. (Romans 4:36).
5. Saved by grace through faith, as a gift of God? (Eph 2:8).

I think most of them would agree with James on this question:

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

(King James Bible, James)

Do they believe in all this? Also, do you?
No?:

Like James, I see faith and works as inextricably intertwined. But faith is primary. As to what I believe about atonement, I have written a long post on this subject which I can either send you privately or repost if you want to start another thread on this. But it is too long for this thread.

You have to stop reading the Qur'an and those Baha'i scripture, Zoroaster, Buddha, etc. They are false prophets and/or teachers. Read 1 Cor 3:17, 1 Tim 6:3-4 and Eph 4:14 below.
m.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone does hurt to Gods temple or corrupts it [ with false doctrines] or destroys it, God will do hurt to him and bring him to the corruption of death and destroy him. For the temple of God is holy (sacred to Him) and that [temple] you [ the believing church and its individual believers] are.

I hate to break it to you but your interpolations are distorting the meaning of this passage It is clearly a reference to the human body, not to the church or its doctrines. Read the passage immediately before it.

3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

1 Timothy 6:3-4
3 But if anyone teaches otherwise and does not assent to the sound and wholesome messages of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and the teaching which is in agreement with godliness (piety toward God),

Except you are mostly quoting Paul to refute Muhammad not what Jesus himself says.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

LoAmmi said:
or is Paul talking about people within the Church here? I am honestly not sure.

Actually Paul didn't write Timothy. It is a second century work and is most definitely speaking of disputes within the church.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

BruceDLimber said:
Simply false, as is shown here!:

Based on Combating Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan, here are the criteria for determining "cults":

Personally, I think all this 'cult' talk is sheer nonsense. Let's see how many of these apply to Christianity.

Dangerous Cults: Commercial operations and/or mandatory donations (often large percentages) by members.

How many churches tithe? And how many Catholic monasteries produce things for sell like cheese or wine?

Dangerous Cults: Cults usually have a central living figure who often lives on income from adherents.

Which reinforces my original assertion that every religion starts out as cult. They are nearly all founded by some charismatic person like Christ.

4. Investigation of truth.

Dangerous Cults: Members are often told that it is dangerous to investigate other religions.

Like Jonathan does?

5. Behavior control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Persons may be told where to live, what to wear, or what (and how much) to eat. Sleep and freedom to travel or move about may be limited.

Which makes all Christian monasteries cults.

6. Thought control as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: There is often use of "thought-stopping" techniques such as chanting or speaking in tongues for long periods of time, setting up a type of hypnotic atmosphere.

Like Jonathan's church?

7. Emotional control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation or forced confession, and indoctrination against leaving the group.

Again, something which applies to various Christian churches.

Dangerous Cults: People who leave cults are often considered to be dangerous and are usually shunned.

As the scriptural passages Jonathan was just quoting urged.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
Baha'i is unorthodox.

Most Christians don't regard Pentecostals like yourself as orthodox.

Baha'u'llah doesn't bestow Water of Life or provide spiritual food.

After you've read his writings you will be in the position to say that.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
I still have no answers to my questions about Muslims and Baha'i about Jesus being God etc.

I wrote a rather extensive response. Didn't you read it?

If Muslims don't believe Jesus is God in the flesh, they are Anti-Christ (1 John 4:3).

Not what 1 John 4:2 says. It says anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is the anti-Christ. John is refuting the gnostics who denied that Christ ever had a physical body.

Jonathan95 · May 9, 2012

smaneck said:
Do you even know what a cult is?

It is sad how in order to feel secure in your own religion you have to deny the experience of others.

Not to be secure in my own religion.

LOL. The Baha'i Faith does not even believe in demons.

So you don't believe Jesus went to Hades?

Nonsense.

Yes, he doesn't preach the gospel, (good news). He was a false prophet. I have proven it by verses.

That doesn't mean there won't be real ones.

There wont be "prophets" like Muhammad that gives a new gospel/teachings contrary to the gospel, the sound doctrine. Muhammad deceived many, and led many astray. He was a false prophet, just like Jesus warned such would arise.

1. Do Muslims believe Jesus is God? (John 1:1, John 8:24, Phil 2:6)

Generally, no, though they do accept he is the Word of God as John 1:1 states. Shi'ites would accept He is a Manifestation of God. Phil 2:6 says Jesus in the form of God, not the essence. I'm not sure why you think John 8:24 is relevant. I would presume that the reference to "he" is to the Messiah.

It is true that John's Gospel appears to stress the divinity of Christ more than others but these passages need to be read in the context of John 10:24

Then they have the spirit of Anti-Christ, proof:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh [but would [a]annul, destroy, sever, disunite Him] is not of God [does not proceed from Him]. This [[c]nonconfession] is the [spirit] of the antichrist, [of] which you heard that it was coming, and now it is already in the world.

1 John 5:20
And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is truein His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal.

I hate to break it to you but your interpolations are distorting the meaning of this passage It is clearly a reference to the human body, not to the church or its doctrines. Read the passage immediately before it.

3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

Except you are mostly quoting Paul to refute Muhammad not what Jesus himself says.

Click to expand...

Just because it says that before, doesn't mean it isn't speaking of doctrines in the other verse that I gave.

Also, Then why does it talk about wisdom right after? Obviously it has to do with doctrines, also since Amplified Bible Version says so.

AMP Bible does like this:

It attempts to take both word meaning and context into account in order to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
I forgot.. Do Muslims believe in Jesus resurrection, and do Baha'i people believe in it? I notice how much I use "Baha'i people", like it was a TRIBE, lol.

Since most Muslims don't believe Jesus was ever crucified, they are not likely to believe in the Resurrection. Baha'is believe Jesus was crucified, but we don't see the Resurrection as physical. As Paul writes:

15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(King James Bible, 1 Corinthians)

Jonathan95 · May 9, 2012

smaneck said:
I wrote a rather extensive response. Didn't you read it?

Not what 1 John 4:2 says. It says anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is the anti-Christ. John is refuting the gnostics who denied that Christ ever had a physical body.

Obviously it is about Jesus being God in the flesh?

Matthew Henry's Commentary:

Jesus Christ is to be confessed as the Son of God, the eternal life and Word, that was with the Father from the beginning; as the Son of God that came into, and came in, our human mortal nature, and therein suffered and died at Jerusalem. He who confesses and preaches this, by a mind supernaturally instructed and enlightened therein, does it by the Spirit of God, or God is the author of that illumination.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
So you don't believe Jesus went to Hades?

Relevance?

Then they have the spirit of Anti-Christ, proof:

1 John 4:3
And every spirit which does not acknowledge and confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh

Islam does not deny that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. Again, this is about a battle with gnostics.

smaneck · May 9, 2012

Jonathan95 said:
Obviously it is about Jesus being God in the flesh?

No, it is about the Christ coming in the flesh, which is something the gnostics did not believe.

Matthew Henry's Commentary:

See with your own eyes and not through the eyes of others. Why would I accept this man as an authority?

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