Islam Pagan

[Jonathan95]

Most Christians don't regard Pentecostals like yourself as orthodox.

I'm not Pentecostal.

After you've read his writings you will be in the position to say that.

I don't need to, I've already gave those verses. Also, a prophet like him isn't prophesied to come.

Also, still no answer? Since this has to do with Jesus death and resurrection, Don't you believe Jesus went to Hades? Not hell, as I said before, sorry. That he got tempted by the devil?

 

[LoAmmi]

I don't need to, I've already gave those verses. Also, a prophet like him isn't prophesied to come.

You would disagree with me when I say a person with Jesus' mission was never prophesied to come. At least I have read the New Testament to make my own determination, however.

 

[smaneck]

Just because it says that before, doesn't mean it isn't speaking of doctrines in the other verse that I gave.

Oh, indeed it does. It is called reading a passage within its context.

Also, Then why does it talk about wisdom right after?

Not right after. A couple of verses later. Paul is off on a different subject by this time.

AMP Bible does like this:

Are you saying that those interpolations I objected to are from the Amplified Bible? A good reason to avoid it, because although it says it takes the context into account, it obviously didn't.

See with your own eyes and not through the eyes of others.

 

[smaneck]

I'm not Pentecostal.

Virtually all of the sources you have cited are Pentecostal as are the people you have talked about in association with healing miracles, etc. When I say Pentecostal I'm not talking about a specific denomination. I'm talking about holiness churches which stress speaking in tongues, healings, etc.

Also, still no answer? Since this has to do with Jesus death and resurrection, Don't you believe Jesus went to Hades?

You wrote this in answer to my saying Baha'is don't believe in demons. I don't see the connection.

That he got tempted by the devil?

I think the story of Jesus' temptation takes place at the beginning of his ministry, not the end. I recognize that the New Testament (unlike the Old) views Satan as a demonic figure. So does the Qur'an for that matter. But the Baha'i scriptures see Satan as the evil whisperer within each of us, not some anti-god outside of us.

 

[Jonathan95]

Oh, indeed it does. It is called reading a passage within its context.

Not right after. A couple of verses later. Paul is off on a different subject by this time.

Are you saying that those interpolations I objected to are from the Amplified Bible? A good reason to avoid it, because although it says it takes the context into account, it obviously didn't.

See with your own eyes and not through the eyes of others.

Just becuase it talks about God's temple, doesn't mean it disproves that v18 is about doctrines.

Also, lets read a few verses before that, and yes Paul talks about wisdom in verse 18 which is right after v17 that I gave you.

Verse 10-15 proves that it's indeed about doctrines. Read the parable of The Wise and Foolish Builders (Matt 7:24-27). Jesus has to be our foundation. I believe Baha'i contradicts that maybe.

1 Corinthians 3:10-18
10 According to the grace (the special endowment for my task) of God bestowed on me, like a skillful architect and master builder I laid [the] foundation, and now another [man] is building upon it. But let each [man] be careful how he builds upon it,
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
12 But if anyone builds upon the Foundation, whether it be with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 The work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.
14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward.
15 But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.(A)
16 Do you not discern and understand that you [the whole church at Corinth] are God’s temple (His sanctuary), and that God’s Spirit has His permanent dwelling in you [to be at home in you, [a]collectively as a church and also individually]?
17 If anyone does hurt to God’s temple or corrupts it [[c]with false doctrines] or destroys it, God will [d]do hurt to him and bring him to the corruption of death and destroy him. For the temple of God is holy (sacred to Him) and that [temple] you [[e]the believing church and its individual believers] are.
18 Let no person deceive himself. If anyone among you supposes that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool [let him discard his worldly discernment and recognize himself as dull, stupid, and foolish, without true learning and scholarship], that he may become [really] wise.

You wrote this in answer to my saying Baha'is don't believe in demons. I don't see the connection.

Jesus went to hades, and he proclaimed victory over Satan.

Also, Jesus ministry was a lot about casting out demons, so you don't believe he did that?

I think the story of Jesus' temptation takes place at the beginning of his ministry, not the end. I recognize that the New Testament (unlike the Old) views Satan as a demonic figure. So does the Qur'an for that matter. But the Baha'i scriptures see Satan as the evil whisperer within each of us, not some anti-god outside of us.

Well that Baha'i view is contrary to the bible then.

 

[Jonathan95]

.

 

[smaneck]

Where does it say that Jesus descended into Hades and preached his victory over Satan? The closest thing I could find is 1 Pet 3:18-20, but it says nothing about Hades or Satan.

 

[smaneck]

1 Corinthians 3:10-18

Try posting that passage without all the interpolations. It reads completely differently.

What does Revelation 22:18 say about interpolating scripture?

 

[LoAmmi]

Try posting that passage without all the interpolations. It reads completely differently.

They are also redundant. "Christ" "Messiah" "Anointed One" are all the same.

 

[Jonathan95]

Virtually all of the sources you have cited are Pentecostal as are the people you have talked about in association with healing miracles, etc. When I say Pentecostal I'm not talking about a specific denomination. I'm talking about holiness churches which stress speaking in tongues, healings, etc.



You wrote this in answer to my saying Baha'is don't believe in demons. I don't see the connection.



I think the story of Jesus' temptation takes place at the beginning of his ministry, not the end. I recognize that the New Testament (unlike the Old) views Satan as a demonic figure. So does the Qur'an for that matter. But the Baha'i scriptures see Satan as the evil whisperer within each of us, not some anti-god outside of us.

Where does it say that Jesus descended into Hades and preached his victory over Satan? The closest thing I could find is 1 Pet 3:18-20, but it says nothing about Hades or Satan.

Matthew 12:40
For even as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth

Have you read Book of Jonah? Otherwise you might not understand, maybe.


1 Pet 3:19 "...spirits in prison,"

That's hades, read the verse below.

Acts 2:31
He, foreseeing this, spoke [by foreknowledge] of the resurrection of the Christ (the Messiah) that He was not deserted [in death] and left in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor did His body know decay or see destruction.

In our behalf Jesus entered the great battle against the devil and sin to give us righteousness and eternal life. He died on the cross, he was so tempted in Gethsemane, so obviously as he made a way to Heaven through the cross, (Satan defeated - since people will enter heaven).. so what he proclaimed in Hades was obviously victory over Satan.


Jude 6 informs us that the devil’s present state of existence is in hell with his evil angels. There they are being kept in darkness and bound in everlasting chains for their final day of judgment on the last day.

Jude 6: . . . and angels, who did not keep their sphere of authority but deserted their own habitation, he has kept in everlasting bonds under the darkness of hell for judgment on the great Day.

1 Peter 3:19 tells us that the devil and his angels are bound in prison, that is hell, where the exalted Christ Jesus descended to proclaim his victory over them.

1Peter 3:19: . . . in which he went and preached to those in prison, . . .

2 Peter 2:4 confirms what we learned in the two previous verses. The devil and his angels have been sent to hell, where they are being held in gloomy dungeons for their final judgment and ultimate defeat.

2 Peter 2:4: For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but handed them over for judgment, holding them in chains of darkness in hell; . . .

We might wonder how the devil and his angels feel about the Lord having bound them in hell for the judgment that is to come to them. The following passages provide some insights.

From Luke 8:30, 31 we learn the devil and his angels have no desire to be condemned to the abyss of hell where they will be tormented.

Luke 8:30 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” and he said, “Legion,” became many demons had entered into him.
Luke 8:31 And they kept imploring him that he should not command them to go away into the abyss.

 

[Jonathan95]

Try posting that passage without all the interpolations. It reads completely differently.

What does Revelation 22:18 say about interpolating scripture?

Rev 22:18 talks about adding to the Book of Revelation, notice the "..in this book".. But there's another one:

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

I don't know what interpolations are. Is it these [ ] ??

I don't add to scripture, neither does Amplified Bible, I believe.


Version Information

The Amplified Bible was the first Bible project of The Lockman Foundation. It attempts to take both word meaning and context into account in order to accurately translate the original text from one language into another. The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says. Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method. The Amplified Bible present on the Bible Gateway matches the 1987 printing.

 

[smaneck]

Rev 22:18 talks about adding to the Book of Revelation, notice the "..in this book"..

Yes, it is talking specifically about the Book of Revelation, but do you think the principle does not apply to other passages of scripture. Do you think it is okay to add words to scripture like is done with those passages which you have been posted.

Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

I don't know what interpolations are. Is it these [ ] ??

It is what is in those brackets, not the brackets themselves. They are adding words to the scriptures and distorting its meaning.

I don't add to scripture, neither does Amplified Bible, I believe.

That is precisely what the stuff in those brackets do.

Version Information

I don't care what it thinks it is doing, I'm talking about what I see it doing. If you want to discuss scripture then use a version which is actually a translation without someone else interpolating their own interpretation into it.

 

[Jonathan95]

Yes, it is talking specifically about the Book of Revelation, but do you think the principle does not apply to other passages of scripture. Do you think it is okay to add words to scripture like is done with those passages which you have been posted.

If the greek, hebrew words definitions were posted below every verse I posted, you wouldn't say I added to the word?

It is what is in those brackets, not the brackets themselves. They are adding words to the scriptures and distorting its meaning.

Not distorting, as far as I know. Just read below.

That is precisely what the stuff in those brackets do.

I don't care what it thinks it is doing, I'm talking about what I see it doing. If you want to discuss scripture then use a version which is actually a translation without someone else interpolating their own interpretation into it.

Well I can look up the Greek words, and take the defintion there. Or Hebrew. But it will kinda be the same, and take much more time.


The Amplified Bible tries to remain free of personal interpretation and it is independent of denominational bias. This rendering is a Bible version, an English translation based on the accepted Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek manuscripts. It is based from the American Standard Version of 1901, supplemented by the best available textual findings of the day. This offered better interpretations of textual differences. The translators made a resolute effort to keep the mood of the earliest Book.

Through amplification, the Bible reader gains an enhanced perception of what the Hebrew and Greek listener instinctively understood (as a matter of course). For an example, the English word "love" has 3 Greek words in describing the different levels. Notice how the Amplified Bible brings this out in comparison to the KJV.

 

[smaneck]

If the greek, hebrew words definitions were posted below every verse I posted, you wouldn't say I added to the word?

Obviously the Greek and Hebrew words themselves cannot be interpolations as they are the original text. Anything one posts below a verse is likewise not an interpolation as it is not inserted into the original text. My objection is to the insertion of words within the text and which distorts ones reading of it. If an interpretation is footnoted then a person can decide for themselves whether to accept or reject the interpretation. But what you Amplified Bible is doing is making it difficult to determine what the text itself says.

Well I can look up the Greek words, and take the defintion there. Or Hebrew. But it will kinda be the same, and take much more time.

Why not just use a translation without all of those insertions? Even KJV would do (though it is not without its flaws.

The Amplified Bible tries to remain free of personal interpretation

If it were trying to remain free of personal interpretation those brackets would not be there. They would let the Bible speak for itself.

and it is independent of denominational bias.

Not true. It is published by Zondervan which has a definite theological bias.

Through amplification, the Bible reader gains an enhanced perception of what the Hebrew and Greek listener instinctively understood (as a matter of course). For an example, the English word "love" has 3 Greek words in describing the different levels. Notice how the Amplified Bible brings this out in comparison to the KJV.

Those are in parenthesis, not brackets (though they should be in footnotes.) The material in the brackets contains words and comments not in the original text, nor implied by the Greek. Even Josh McDowell had the following to say about it:

"It is highly interpretive. The theological bias of the amplifier cannot help but show through when the meaning of words and expressions are given. Although the preparers of The Amplified Bible have a high view of the Bible, many of their amplifications" are totally subjective and open to argumentation.
The Amplified Bible should be used only alongside a good translation, never studied by itself."

 

[Jonathan95]

.

Well. About the scriptures I gave. I've proven it's Sin to be studying the Qur'an like that, (whether there are interpolations or not), and that it has doctrine of demons. It's a false doctrine.

Now if you don't want to believe, it's not my problem, I've done mine.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Studying the Qur'an etc like that doesn't go well with Matt 4:4. Or with 2 John 1:9-10.


2 John 1:9-10
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Timothy 2:14
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Matthew 10:14
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.


*Jonathan says: Bye, and shakes off the dust of his feet, and departs*

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm not sure what you mean about 2) ?? Isn't Jesus God?

And man.

The historic and orthodox confession is that Jesus is both God and man. He is a real human being, with a real human mind, a real human soul, and a real human body.

He rose from the dead, bodily, as a human being.

In the same way we will also rise from the dead, bodily, as human beings.

The Christian hope has always been resurrection from the dead. It's not about "going to heaven when we die", it's about at the consummation of time and history, when Christ returns, that the dead will be raised up bodily to eternal and immortal life in the Age to Come--new heavens and new earth, a renewed and restored creation.

The Christian hope is not that we go up to God; but that God comes down to us. It is consistently the biblical message that God is reaching down, coming down, and dwelling down with us in the world. God creates the heavens and the earth and "walks with Adam", God reaches out and calls Abraham out from Ur, God makes Himself known to Moses in the burning bush and guides the people of Israel by pillar of smoke and flame. It is God who reaches out to Elijah in the small gentle whisper. It is God who condescends and unites Himself to human nature in Jesus. It is God who pours out His Spirit upon the Church on Pentecost. It is God who comes down to us in Word and Sacrament. It is God who comes to us in His grace and mercy. It is God who will come down to restore and renew the world, and it is God who comes down to reign and dwell with mankind forever and ever.

Jesus does not say we will be "like the angels" "in heaven"; but rather in the resurrection. And only in one way, neither marrying nor given in marriage. It says nothing about gender.

In the resurrection I'm still going to be me. I'm going to have this flesh and bone body. I'm going to have sinew, bone, and tissue. I'm going to be solid and substantial. This body that was formed in my mother's womb is going to live forever. That's what resurrection means. That's why St. Paul writes,

"If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." - Romans 8:11

"...the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself." - Philippians 3:21

Lowly, in this context, does not refer to the inferiority of human flesh (since Jesus' glorious body is likewise human flesh: Luke 24:39); but rather in reference to its estate as perishable and mortal. The body at present deteriorates, it decays and is subject to death. In the resurrection it is imperishable, no longer subject to decay, immortal.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tenebrae]

Whats really scary is how much of this that is found in christian megachurches

What you overlook is that God updates His teachings to us periodically, and His newest teachings make quite explicit what I said above! Further, I will add this:

"Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings."
--(From a letter written on behalf of the head of the Baha'i Faith to an individual believer, November 14, 1947.)




Only partially true (as usual)!

These doctrines do indeed exist, but what they in fact SAY is that because God is One, Supreme, and has no rival or equal! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with Him.

Further, "satan" merely refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.




Simply false, as is shown here!:

Based on Combating Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan, here are the criteria for determining "cults":

1. How new members are found.

Dangerous Cults: With many cults, you don't get to know what you are getting into until after you have made a commitment.

Baha'i Faith: What you see is what you get: there are no secrets.


2. How funding is obtained.

Dangerous Cults: Commercial operations and/or mandatory donations (often large percentages) by members.

Baha'i Faith: Has no commercial businesses, collection plates are never passed, and donations are completely voluntary and accepted from enrolled members only.


3. Charismatic central figure.

Dangerous Cults: Cults usually have a central living figure who often lives on income from adherents.

Baha'i Faith: There is no living central figure in the Baha'i Faith (and there has been none since 1957); government is by bodies freely elected from the membership. There is no clergy, paid or unpaid.


4. Investigation of truth.

Dangerous Cults: Members are often told that it is dangerous to investigate other religions.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is are encouraged to investigate all religions, and to appreciate truth no matter where it is found.


5. Behavior control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Persons may be told where to live, what to wear, or what (and how much) to eat. Sleep and freedom to travel or move about may be limited.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is do not live in communes, but in the world as normal individuals and families. They wear no special or required clothing. The religion has no food requirements other than abstaining from alcohol, and the annual nineteen-day fast during which food and drink is not consumed during daylight hours only. Baha'is may get as much sleep as they want, eat whatever they want, work and live where they want.


6. Thought control as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: There is often use of "thought-stopping" techniques such as chanting or speaking in tongues for long periods of time, setting up a type of hypnotic atmosphere.

Baha'i Faith: Chanting and prayer are not prolonged, nor is their intent to block thought. There is no speaking in tongues. Thought and investigation are encouraged.


7. Emotional control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation or forced confession, and indoctrination against leaving the group.

Baha'i Faith: Confession to and humiliation of others are forbidden. Members are free to leave the Faith at any time if they so choose, without stigma.


8. What happens when people leave the religion.

Dangerous Cults: People who leave cults are often considered to be dangerous and are usually shunned.

Baha'i Faith: Baha'is are generally permitted and encouraged to remain friends with people who leave. The only exception is in the case of a person declared to be a "Covenant breaker" by the Universal House of Justice due to an attempt to split the Baha'i Faith. There is no condemnation of those who voluntarily choose to leave.

o O o

* Hassan, Steven, Combating Cult Mind Control, Park Street Press, One Park Street, Rochester, Vermont 05767, 1988, ISBN 0-89281-311-3. "The Four Components of Mind Control", pages 59-67.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

That's not biblical.

So what?

I never said it was!

Nor is the Bible the only source of truth in existence, little as you appreciate this fact.

I've heard Satan twice.

You will forgive me, I trust, if I'm not impressed by your or others' hallucinations.

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

You gain no points for telling Susan she needs to be ignorant.

She's not ignorant if she doesn't study doctrines of demons.

You ignored what I said: she HAS to study all this stuff in order to be able to teach the curriculum she's expected to present!

So sorry the concept is opaque to you.

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Do Baha'i people believe in [Jesus' Resurrection]?

Yes, Baha'is do believe in Christ's Resurrection; further, we fully satisfy the condition in First John 4:2 and are therefore of God by the criterion of the Bible itself!

Best!

Bruce