Tithing and WOF

You mean you give "the tithe" itself because you love God...that's great.

But, do you "tithe the tithe"?

The tithe is the 10%...but tithing is done with the mouth, and it pleases God, so can't it all be done because it's something God wants done and we're going to do it out of loving that which God desires???

If one loves God...what would be wrong with doing what He says do???

Like it, or not, God has desires...and those that do His desire will be blessed with His presence...

John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Last time I checked...red words win...meaning, Jesus knows what He's talkin 'bout and we'd be good to believe that and act on it...because we love Him!

Either way you slice it, we need to do what God wants us to do...

KM Richards said:

You mean you give "the tithe" itself because you love God...that's great.

But, do you "tithe the tithe"?

The tithe is the 10%...but tithing is done with the mouth, and it pleases God, so can't it all be done because it's something God wants done and we're going to do it out of loving that which God desires???

.

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What you say is true!



Do you understand how to do what you say?

still kinda wanting answers to these 3 questions..... i was hoping we could reason things through..... everyone has their reasons for what they believe..... but there must be a way to find out for sure what GOD wants.... any position can be questioned.... but not attacked.... attacking is like accusing.... the devil is the accuser of the brethren.... we can't win each other to the truth if we are attacking them.... questioning should be sufficient to discover the truth....

HolySpiritWOF said:

ABlessedMan said:

If one believes that the OT tithe carries forward, then yes, absolutely. But somtimes...one tithe (tithe of the herd in Lev 27:32) is the tenth under the rod, and in this case the blemished animal will be taken with the unblemished; they are not to be distinguished, but they are holy unto the Lord.

Your tithe and your offerings are to be holy and pure. It is speculated that this is what the issue with Cain's offering was: it was not holy and pure; not his best.

Now all this goes for New Testament giving with a happy heart as well. You should never just plunk money into the bucket without thinking about it. This is a holy relationship between us and Father God. He is Holy -- would we treat Him as anything less?

Remember too that for the non-tithe believer the PRINCIPLE of the tithe is the thing that we are participating in. The tithe would be a physical requirement layed over a commandment of God. That commandment, to give back to our Father, is still intact. So all aspects of the PRINCIPLE of giving are still intact -- we just don't count out 10%; we still should count out the best.

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1. if the OT believers were to bring the full 10% into the storehouse..... then why would we NT believers not do at least that?..... why would we WANT to STOP that practice?..... why would we want to give less than 10%?.....

2. and like you said if it comes forward into the NT then it comes untouched.... exactly as was prescribed in the OT..... if it is altered in ANY way from the OT..... then who decides how much and in what ways to alter it?..... again... there are no specific commands on the altering of the tithe.....

3. and if we bring the tithe forward into the NT altered..... then any alteration should be acceptable..... thus the happy heart giver can alter it any way he has decided in his heart.....

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there must be a way to find out for sure what GOD wants

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God has provided the tools for this...the Word, and the Holy Ghost!

KM Richards said:

You mean you give "the tithe" itself because you love God...that's great.

But, do you "tithe the tithe"?

The tithe is the 10%...but tithing is done with the mouth, and it pleases God, so can't it all be done because it's something God wants done and we're going to do it out of loving that which God desires???

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It can, but it often is not.

I'm curious though; can you provide a scriptural basis for your belief that the act of "tithing" is done with the mouth? I am unaware of any scripture that equates tithing to a verbal exercise.

KM Richards said:

You mean you give "the tithe" itself because you love God...that's great.
But, do you "tithe the tithe"?
The tithe is the 10%...but tithing is done with the mouth, and it pleases God, so can't it all be done because it's something God wants done and we're going to do it out of loving that which God desires???
If one loves God...what would be wrong with doing what He says do???
Like it, or not, God has desires...and those that do His desire will be blessed with His presence...
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Last time I checked...red words win...meaning, Jesus knows what He's talkin 'bout and we'd be good to believe that and act on it...because we love Him!
Either way you slice it, we need to do what God wants us to do...

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hi KM.... wanted to hear what you have on these questions.... i am trying to find the truth about tithing..... if the OT tithe should be carried over to the NT then i want to do it that way..... if it doesn't carry over to the NT then i want to know what GOD wants..... i really am interested in your answers to these questions......

1. do you carry the tithe over from the OT unaltered?..... do you do EXACTLY as mal 3:10 says?..... heave offering and all?....

2. if you alter the mal 3:10 tithing how have you altered it from the original?..... and why?.....

3. how does tithing the tithe with your mouth compare to GOD'S original commandment?..... do you do that EXACTLY as written in the OT or do you alter that from the original?..... where is the tithing the tithe with your mouth found in scripture?.....

kinda hoping for answers to these questions..... how can this issue be examined if it isn't questioned and answered straight and clear?..... the TRUTH will be able to stand any scrutiny..... but error will always crumble and fall.... i would like to see this subject properly and thoroughly questioned from all sides..... once it is made clear then clear decisions can be made..... right now there are differing understandings of scripture.....

ps. i found this on tithing the tithe from - http://www.ncfallc.com/Salvation-Prayer-and-Tithing.7.htm
is this what you were meaning?....

Now, along with "planting" or what we call (giving), this is something I learned from Dr. Fredrick K. C. Price, that is you have to keep ’watering" your seed by confessing the Word and saying, "In the name of Jesus, I believe I receive the windows-of heaven blessing", and I added to this by saying thank you God for giving me/us the keys to the Kingdom. Each time you proclaim this confession, while walking in line with God’s principles, you make inroads into the spirit-realm and bring your blessings forth from the spirit world into the physical world. In the spirit world, such a confession keeps your seed (whatever you are believeing and confessing) growing. When you systematically continue to make your confessions relative to your tithes and offerings, Satan cannot touch your blessings. But when you fail to adhere to the directives given in God’s word, Satan can and will steal your blessings and there is nothing God can do about it.

(Deuteronomy 26:1-19),
its from this scripture we also learn about "Tithing." The tithe is a tenth, but once you calculated your tenth you should tithe the tenth,which requires words to be spoken out of your mouth. In other words you begin tithing the tenth.
Another thing to remember about our Father He looks at the heart and knows your desire to tithe. You do better by giving offerings out of love for the furtherance of the Gospel
(Luke 6:38),
and God will honor your giving, and after you give with understanding read Luke 6:38 and began confessing Thank you Lord that men/women are giving into my bossom (wallet, bank account, etc) pressed down shaken together and running over. Now, you are positioning yourself for increase,

Quick answers first...then everything rolled into one:

HolySpiritWOF said:

1. if the OT believers were to bring the full 10% into the storehouse..... then why would we NT believers not do at least that?..... why would we WANT to STOP that practice?..... why would we want to give less than 10%?.....

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Because the OT 10% was law. It is based upon the principles of God. And there is no reason to give less, but now you are appealing to emotion and not the Word; while there is truth in what you are after here, this is a bad way to determine theology.

HolySpiritWOF said:

2. and like you said if it comes forward into the NT then it comes untouched.... exactly as was prescribed in the OT..... if it is altered in ANY way from the OT..... then who decides how much and in what ways to alter it?..... again... there are no specific commands on the altering of the tithe.....

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"if it is altered" -- if it is, then you have gone against God's commandments. So nobody gets to "decide how much ... to alter it." Again, this is IF it comes forward untouched.

HolySpiritWOF said:

3. and if we bring the tithe forward into the NT altered..... then any alteration should be acceptable..... thus the happy heart giver can alter it any way he has decided in his heart.....

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We can't bring it forward altered; we must apply the Word and see where God wants us.

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There are many things that were done in the OT that were "changed" in the NT. You were allowed to give a writ of divorce to your wife in OT law; in the NT Jesus calls this adultery.

We can't pick and choose what we want to bring forward, nor can we decide to alter that which does come forward. God decides. His Word clearly demarks what and where and how we are to do things.

There are many things that were spelled out in the law. And we are told that we are not under the law any longer but under grace. And we are told that if we want to follow just one law, then we must follow all of them:
In pointing this out, Paul is not going to list every single law that we could possibly choose. He chose circumcision as the example (and said in v6 that it doesn't matter if you get circumcised or not! It is not the act of circumcision but the lawful adherence). He said that if one chose circumcision because of the law, then you have placed yourself under ALL law.

But there is a penalty for placing yourself back under the law:
Personally, I don't think that falling from grace is a good thing. But that's just me.

So then the question becomes: is the tithe (10%, not just giving) part of the law? Circumcision is said by Paul to be part of the law and it was a thing that was given 430 years before the tablets were cut (before the Law).... you get the parallel.

And if the tithe does not come forward, and if God does not change, then we must look to see what the tithe is a PICTURE of: for the OT is a physical picture of the spiritual truth that is given in the NT. And as I see it, tithing is a picture of giving. It is how we take something most important to us (our flocks, our fields, our stuff, our money) and we give it back to God so that it does not become our god; so that our love is properly focused where it most importantly needs to be.

And this is why, I believe, that tithing is not taught in the New Testament; when it is mentioned is it in context to an OT Jew who is still under OT law; and the only principle that is taught in relation to this is giving, and giving with a happy heart. The tutorial of 10% gives way to our free will decision to serve and bless our Lord.

actually the principle of tithing works, even today! although I stand with those who claim its not biblical for new testiment gentiles, I tithe because Jesus said its hard for a rich man to enter heaven, by all standards if you are buying a house and drive a car you are the richest people on the planet, compared to national standards around the world. I think while the tithe shows God you see Him as your sole support and blessing, Its important to lay up treasure in heaven, this can only be done by giving in a spiritual way. The reason many pastors push tithing, is for their own benifit, yet testimony after testimony will show whether a man gave his money to a wolf in sheeps clothing, in his mind he gave it unto the Lord and God will bless him, but I feel sorry for that greedy wolf that lined his pockets with Gods money.....Yikes!

going back to the OT tithe, the main reason that God asked (or required) the tithe from the israelites was because the job of the levites and priests was to serve God in the temple and to receive the offerings and sacrifices of the people, to perform the rituals, and pray for/interceed for the people. in doing all of that, they didn't have time to raise their own animals, or crops or food. if the offerings were not forthcomming, then they had to leave their jobs at the temple and farm so that they could eat.

So God required a tithe offering to be brought to the temple for the priests and their families. Also the priests were allowed to eat parts of the sacrifice given to God, but other parts or sacrifices were for God only.

So that's one reason for the tithe.

some references:
Restoration of Levitical support: Nehemiah 13:10-12
Inheritance of the tribe of Levi: Deuteronomy 10:6-9
Contribution for the Priests and Levites: Deuteronomy 31:2-10
Reorganization of the Priests and Levites:2 Chronicles 31:11-21

I stand with those who claim its not biblical for new testament gentiles

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If it's "not biblical" for NT believers...that would make is a sin, wouldn't it?

I think a better way to put that would be that you don't believe it's a requirement that God has put on us...but it is if we are to walk with God being co-laborers with Him in the Covenant He has setup between God and the perfect resurrected from the dead Man, Jesus Christ of which we are members with full benefits.

Tithing the tithe is a very important part of the Covenant between God and man...Adam's tithe was taking care of God's tree (knowledge of good-n-evil) and was told to not partake because it did not belong to Adam, it belonged to God.

The same is true with your physical body...it does not belong to you (1 Corinthians 6:19, Romans 12:1), so we really have no right to eat whatever we want, never exercise, etc, etc because it's proven to be bad for the body...I know, that's a whole different thread...

can you provide a scriptural basis for your belief that the act of "tithing" is done with the mouth?

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Deuteronomy 26. Draw the comparisons between the children of Israel being brought out of bondage from Egypt, and ourselves being brought out of bondage to satan with the new birth, and pay close attention to the things God tells His people to say...this is worshipping God with our tithe.

It also references giving to the poor, not giving honor to the dead (that which has been separated from God, such as dead works, idols, etc), worshiping God...all these things God is telling

Deuteronomy 26:3 says "and thou shalt go unto the priest that shall be in those days"...God wrote it like that on purpose, to include the day we live in where Jesus Christ is the High Priest of our confession (see Hebrews 3:1)

Deuteronomy 26:10 tells us to say "and now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me" (see Proverbs 3:9, another reference to paying God His tithe...)

Deuteronomy 26:15 tells us to say to God "Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey"...I always declare God's blessing (since in NT times He has already given us all things that pertain to life and Godliness, see 2 Peter 1:3) which is a direct reference to the Covenant God made with Abraham.

Deuteronomy 26:17-19 says that God we are challenging and confirming (KJV calls it "avouched") God to follow His own statues (which He obviously cannot fail at...I use this to declare unto Him what He says about Him honoring His own Word), and we are challenged by God to be His peculiar people (see 2 Corinthians 6:17), to keep His commandments (see John 14:21), and be a "holy people unto the LORD thy God"

All of this should be spoken before God in prayer as you ready your tithe (10% of your FIRST FRUITS...that's the overall amount you make before taxes and withholding are taken out), as worship unto Him...I also do it in conjunction with taking communion, and all in all it may take me anywhere from one hour to two hours to get through all this as I end up with many tears of joy/thanksgiving unto God as it is a prayer session of praise unto God...He is always in attendance! It's always a glorious time in the Lord.

Will God strike you dead if you simply mumble a few words before plunkin your money in the offering bucket? No. Will you go to hell if you don't take time to worship God by tithing the tithe? No...but He would LOVE your coming to Him and spending time with Him in giving something that does in fact belong to Him..as He has said to bring it to Him...in NT times, it's about worshiping direct! Them guys in the OT just wish they had it as good as we do!

This is about the blessing of Abraham...something near and dear to God's heart, His Blood Covenant with man...you know, the one that required Jesus to taste of death for all people (Hebrews 2:9) just so the Father could start filling His house, which is His dream....God's dream is man's dominion!...walking with Him, of course...

In the OT, God had all the tribes pay tithes to the tribe of Levi (a covenant of everlasting priesthood)....who ministered in God's behalf to the people.

Hebrews 7:4-17
Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Psalms 110:4
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

God is clearly speaking about Jesus Christ...

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise

What promise???... Deuteronomy 28, the blessing of the Covenant God made with man thru Abraham

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Abraham was just an entry point back into the earth, so God could make Covenant with the second (and last) Adam to restore what Adam lost...

God is clearly speaking about Jesus Christ...

In the NT, God has a very similar MO here in that Jesus has setup a ministry to the people in His behalf...

Ephesians 4:8, 11,12
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men....
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ

Among other things, the tithe being paid by members of the Body of Christ pays for Jesus ministering to His people! He is taking the tithe and turns right back around and spends it on His Body to further it's growth so His Body is fit to take the Gospel to the world! Jesus is collecting 10% to spend on His Body, so yes this is a requirement just like love your fellow believer is a requirement as these are connected.

Just like in OT times...in the NT God desires for those that work in His ministry to do it full time so they can devote themselves to edification of Jesus' Body without having to work secular jobs which contaminates God's ministers with this world's muck and mire. Those called to the five-fold ministry are to remain pure before God so they can hear what the Lord is saying to the church. They should NOT be poor...if they are, it's a very bad reflection of Jesus...one we do not need to be projecting to the world. (the world hates us anyway, so let's all be rich so we can bankroll some Gospel going out!...that's what being financially rich is about to God...and in it all, He'll take very good care of us personally)

God desires for "meat" to be in His house for His people (see Malachi 3:10, and Hebrews 5:14), as He wants a full grown mature "man" (all of us together in Jesus) to work with in the earth for His purposes...

Since Jesus holds the Office before God of High Priest, after the order of Melchisedec, He is still doing with us exactly what Melchisedec did with Abraham, which is commanding "the Blessing" upon him who has the promises...which is us (Jesus didn't need salvation, He purchased that for us resulting in the promises and the blessing of God found in Deuteronomy 28).

Malachi 3:10,11
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now (remember Duet 27?) herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Excellent promises...only available to tithers!

So, this has to do with covenant participation (He does His part, we do our part...walking together in agreement with each other, the way God wants it!) more than "the law", even though God did include this in the law (to point out that not tithing the tithe is not right before God), and with Jesus still accepting tithes as the High Priest before God...Wow, I GET to tithe the tithe and participate in the perfect, never ending Covenant between God and man!...

This is a privilege, wouldn't you agree???...Or not....it is to me and many others in the Body of Christ!

KM Richards said:

All of this should be spoken before God in prayer as you ready your tithe (10% of your FIRST FRUITS...that's the overall amount you make before taxes and withholding are taken out), as worship unto Him...

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First of all, thank you for taking the time to thoroughly explain your beliefs. I truly do appreciate that. I now understand clearly what you mean when you say "tithe the tithe".

But what would you say to someone like me, a person who "gave the tithe", and then "tithed the tithe" and still struggled immensely?

There was a time in my life when I just "bucket-plunked". Oddly enough, when I was bucket-plunkin' tithing, I was more blessed financially than when I "tithed" the tithe. In fact, when I was "tithing the tithe", that was the absolute worst time in my life financially speaking, and I nearly lost my house to foreclosure. To make things even more bizarre, it was not until about 6 months after I stopped "tithing" that I was blessed with the largest increase and promotion I'd ever received in my life.

My pastor, whom I love dearly and is a great friend, has always asked people who do not tithe, "How's that working out for you?", and my answer after over 2 years is, pretty good. I give to more ministries than ever before, I support my church both with my finances and my time, and I make more than enough money for my wife to stay at home with our 2 children.

See, I would agree with almost everything you say concerning how we should give, except I would substitute the word "giving" for "tithing". Giving should indeed be a privilege and an act of worship to God.

KM Richards said:

Malachi 3:10,11
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now (remember Duet 27?) herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Excellent promises...only available to tithers!

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I used to believe that too. But then, God led me to this passage of scripture;
The first thing I noted in this passage was the principle of sowing and reaping; he who sows sparingly shall reap sparingly, and he who sows abundantly shall reap abundantly. The next thing I noted was that each person should give as he has made up in his own mind and purposed in his heart. It then goes on to clarify that we should not give under compulsion. If tithing is indeed a "requirement", then it is also a compulsive act.

It then goes on to say that God "is unwilling to abandon or do without" a person whose "heart is in his giving". If God is unwilling to abandon a cheerful giver, it seems unlikely that He's just going to let the devourer run amuck in our finances.

Further, it says that God's grace will come to you in abundance as you sow generously, so that you may be self-sufficient and able to give when it is needed. By giving generously, we are "enriched in all things and in every way" so that we can be generous and cheerful in our giving. These are some pretty great promises for giving as we have made up in our own mind and purposed in our heart.

Now I'm not trying to convince you of my beliefs, and I'm almost certain that you'd say the passage I've referenced deals with "offerings" and not the "tithe". However, I just wanted to share with you my beliefs, just as you've shared with me yours.

I consider it a privilege, an honor and an act of worship to give generously to the work of God.

probinson said:

If tithing is indeed a "requirement", then it is also a compulsive act.

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If that's true...then all instructions in the NT are also under compulsion...that's why God says He loves a cheerful giver...one who is doing what God said to do, but has decided that they LOVE God's instructions and are overjoyed to do what He says do...regardless of what it is!

God also says to love...but ministers rarely tell people it is a COMMANDMENT...but it is a commandment...so that would also be under compulsion to the guy that just don't feel like loving...and there's a bunch of them refusing to give love!


Those scriptures are further confirmation that God wants us to grow financially which can only be done thru sowing and reaping....which is ultimately what the tithe is about, investing in what God is doing.

Sounds like maybe you used to pay more attention to what you were doing...instead of paying attention to what God is doing.

This is all God's idea to worship with our giving, so maybe you didn't have revelation of tithing the tithe and were doing it in your own strength. Nothing wrong starting out in the flesh acting on what God said and growing from there...everyone has to start somewhere, and in most cases yes we start in the flesh (after all...we are all still in the flesh ya know) based on the written Word of God only...that's the planting part...

If you are giving more than 10% and you are worshiping God in your giving and are sincere, I'd just keep doing what the Lord is leading you to do.

The bottom line is to be led of the Lord...and do what He is telling YOU to do...If what you are saying is true, then it sounds like God is blessing you financially...but does He want to take you higher in this???

Like, are you dealing in millions of dollars yet? If not, you have plenty of room to grow as there are many places that kind of money can be put to further the Gospel.

He never stops growing us up ya know....






.

You know, come to think of it...there are plenty of scriptures in the NT that say we are to "obey"....anyone who decides they don't want to "obey" will claim that under Grace, this is putting them under compulsion because they refuse to give their obedience, therefore they are not being cheerful giving of themselves.

Aren't we supposed to give our lives, to live FOR Jesus???

Here's a few on "obey"... sounds like lots of "compulsion" goin on here...


Acts 5:29
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 7:39
To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt

Romans 2:8
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Galatians 3:1
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 5:7
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Ephesians 6:1
Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

Colossians 3:20
Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 Thessalonians 3:14
And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Titus 3:1
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Peter 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

KM Richards said:

If that's true...then all instructions in the NT are also under compulsion...that's why God says He loves a cheerful giver...one who is doing what God said to do, but has decided that they LOVE God's instructions and are overjoyed to do what He says do...regardless of what it is!

God also says to love...but ministers rarely tell people it is a COMMANDMENT...but it is a commandment...so that would also be under compulsion to the guy that just don't feel like loving...and there's a bunch of them refusing to give love!

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I don't disagree that there are commandments to us in the New Covenant.

However, in my first post to you in this thread, I said this;
We seem to agree on that point.

KM Richards said:

Those scriptures are further confirmation that God wants us to grow financially which can only be done thru sowing and reaping....which is ultimately what the tithe is about, investing in what God is doing.

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I am investing in what God is doing, but I am not tithing.

KM Richards said:

Sounds like maybe you used to pay more attention to what you were doing...instead of paying attention to what God is doing.

This is all God's idea to worship with our giving, so maybe you didn't have revelation of tithing the tithe and were doing it in your own strength. Nothing wrong starting out in the flesh acting on what God said and growing from there...everyone has to start somewhere, and in most cases yes we start in the flesh (after all...we are all still in the flesh ya know) based on the written Word of God only...that's the planting part...

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But what I'm saying, and what you've not yet responded to, is I am more blessed now than I ever was when I was "tithing". Why is that? If in fact the promises are only for those who tithe, why am I so blessed, even though I do not "tithe"?

KM Richards said:

If you are giving more than 10%

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I do not know, nor am I concerned with, the percentage I am giving. I am simply giving as the Lord leads me and purposefully giving in such a way that it is impossible for me to keep track of what I've given.

KM Richards said:

and you are worshiping God in your giving and are sincere, I'd just keep doing what the Lord is leading you to do.

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That's exactly what I plan to do.

KM Richards said:

The bottom line is to be led of the Lord...and do what He is telling YOU to do...If what you are saying is true, then it sounds like God is blessing you financially...but does He want to take you higher in this???

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I'm sure He does. And I'm sure He will, as we continue to follow His leading.

KM Richards said:

Like, are you dealing in millions of dollars yet? If not, you have plenty of room to grow as there are many places that kind of money can be put to further the Gospel.

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Millions of dollars really doesn't interest me all that much. There is certainly plenty of room for me to grow in my finances, but I've never desired millions of dollars.

And even if you are dealing in millions of dollars, you still have plenty of room to grow. 10's of millions, 100's of millions, billions, trillions... I just have no desire at all for that kind of money.

As to furthering the Gospel, there is plenty that can be done to further the Gospel without spending a dime. One doesn't necessarily need a private jet and an international ministry to further the Gospel (although if that's what God calls you to do, I have absolutely no problem with that). I am convinced that if all of us would simply be the Light of Jesus to our world (our workplace, our towns and cities, etc.), the Gospel would be furthered in a very real and lasting way.

KM Richards said:

You know, come to think of it...there are plenty of scriptures in the NT that say we are to "obey"....anyone who decides they don't want to "obey" will claim that under Grace, this is putting them under compulsion because they refuse to give their obedience, therefore they are not being cheerful giving of themselves.

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There are people who use grace as an excuse for blatant and willful disobedience, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about obedience out of Love, not out of compulsion.

probinson said:

I am investing in what God is doing, but I am not tithing.

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That's fine by me...but there are specific promises made to the tither that are not available to you. The level of Covenant participation that you engage in is up to you.

probinson said:

But what I'm saying, and what you've not yet responded to, is I am more blessed now than I ever was when I was "tithing". Why is that? If in fact the promises are only for those who tithe, why am I so blessed, even though I do not "tithe"?

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I guess your experiences trump what God said about it...

I'm just saying what God said...you'll have to work out the details with Him concerning your own life.

probinson said:

Millions of dollars really doesn't interest me all that much. There is certainly plenty of room for me to grow in my finances, but I've never desired millions of dollars.

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If all you are interested in is providing for "us four and now more" (you and your family only)...then I suppose you're good to go then...right?

Never mind all the lost hurting people that a bunch of extra money could be used to reach...no need to concern one's self with those people.

probinson said:

There are people who use grace as an excuse for blatant and willful disobedience, but that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about obedience out of Love, not out of compulsion.

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That's the whole point of tithing the tithe...and it's exactly what God is looking for in His people is that level of obedience






.

KM Richards said:

Malachi 3:10,11
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now (remember Duet 27?) herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.

Excellent promises...only available to tithers!

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Only to the tither?

"I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes." Who is the devourer? Satan, of course.
According to Jesus, the New Testament believer has authority over Satan (the enemy). And he can not destroy the fruits of my ground, I command it. (What was it you said recently? Last you checked: red letters win. )

Satan can't touch me. Nor can the curse that would whither my crops.

KM Richards said:

That's fine by me...but there are specific promises made to the tither that are not available to you. The level of Covenant participation that you engage in is up to you.

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Interesting. What promises do you believe are not available to me?

KM Richards said:

I guess your experiences trump what God said about it...

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That's not what I said at all.

You said there were promises that were only available to the tither. But I began experiencing those exact promises in far greater way after I stopped tithing. You don't seem to have an answer for why that might be.

KM Richards said:

I'm just saying what God said...you'll have to work out the details with Him concerning your own life.

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I have. If you read earlier in the thread, these aren't beliefs I've arrived at lightly.

I continue to grow in my relationship daily with God.

KM Richards said:

If all you are interested in is providing for "us four and now more" (you and your family only)...then I suppose you're good to go then...right?

Never mind all the lost hurting people that a bunch of extra money could be used to reach...no need to concern one's self with those people.

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This is why I don't like discussing things with many people who so staunchly advocate tithing. Rather than listening to what I've said, you simply accuse me of being selfish and not caring about other people, all because I have no desire to have millions of dollars. But that's not even remotely close to what I've said.

I don't need millions of dollars to reach other people. There are people all throughout my daily life that I can (and do) reach without spending a dime. Additionally, I can (and do) use the financial resources I have to help others in need as well.

This isn't about making sure I have enough to support my family and no one else. It's about using the blessings I receive, no matter how big or small, for His glory.

probinson said:

I don't need millions of dollars to reach other people. There are people all throughout my daily life that I can (and do) reach without spending a dime.

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Then it sounds like you're good to go then...

Let's talk about Malachi for a moment....
Who is Malachi written to? Now I'm not one to suggest that this was Israel and not the church (which Israel is a picture of), but rather focusing on who is the target of this letter? Malachi is telling us that the nation of Israel must be made aware of the contents herein, but who does Malachi speak to throughout?

Let's study...
Verse 6 tells us that the Lord saith, and He saith to the priests (not the people). Verse 7 offers that the offering on the altar of polluted bread is at issue: the priests make the offerings, and accept any offerings that are brought. They are the target of this book.

Chapter 2 is a bit more direct:
Who is God speaking to? Who is God commanding. And in verse 2 He tells the priests that He will send a curse upon them. And if the curse goes to the priests, it will spread to the people.

Now why are they singled out. Didn't the people bring torn, lame and sick offerings? But the priests accepted these and put them upon the altar in their slackness. So who's responsible? Who is God chastising here?
God tells us clearly who's responsible. It is the priests that have the knowledge; the priests who are the messengers.
It is the priests who departed, who caused many [of the people] to stumble (they became slack because the priests allowed for slack offerings); the priests corrupted the covenant. The priests were made contemptible before all the people (the people were not made contemptible before all the people!). The priests picked and chose which part of the law to consider.

Mal 2:13
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Who makes offerings on the altar? The priests. And they defiled it to the point that God would not regard the offering any more.
So who has gone away from the ordinances of God?? We covered it: Mal 2:9 -- the priests are accused by God of being partial in the law. The priests are the ones who have gone away; the priests are being called to return.

Now let's move forward to our famous verse:
In context of the book of Malachi we can see that the priests are the ones who have robbed God because of their slackness concerning the tithes and offerings. They are cursed (see Mal 3:9 with Mal 2:2). They are cursed because they have not upheld the covenant law, and because of this the whole nation is affected.

Another way to look at Malachi 3:8-9 is to ASSUME that it is directed at the nation of Israel (as opposed to the priests). Let's read it that way:
God sounds a bit dyslexic at the end there.

If it is read in context, rightly dividing the Word, we can see what the subject, the context, the target and the meaning are.

By no means are the people absolved from this, for the curse shall spill over and affect them: Mal 3:9 tells us this. But this is written for the priests who should have kept the covenant holy. Who have responsibility to restore the proper use of the covenant and the offerings upon the altar.

Those who lead the sheep are responsible for teaching the covenant properly. If they misuse it for their own good, or for their own comfort (or laziness), then there is a price to pay. That payment may affect the sheep as well. It is important, therefore, that the Covenant that we are part of be taught correctly and completely.