To Tithe or not to Tithe, That is the question?

GaryArnold said:

Regarding my claim that Abraham did NOT own the spoils of war, please note:

The king of Sodom had an original right both to the persons and to the goods, and it would bear a debate whether Abram’s acquired right by rescue would supersede his title and extinguish it; but, to prevent all quarrels, the king of Sodom makes this fair proposal (v. 21).
--Should the Church Teach Tithing by Dr. Russell Earl Kelly, pages 24-25

But taking either side of the issue, Abraham tithed from the spoils and NOT from his regular income or wealth, and there is no other example of Abraham tithing in the scriptures.

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That is a great book,and great site!
The tithe proponents use Abraham,yet they don't use the ONE TIME example,do they?

Here is the link,to that site.

Should the Church Teach Tithing? Taboo Answer

Svt4Him said:

If that is the clear expectation, then tithe according to how the law was written. The tenth animal who passes under the rod is brought to the temple, not a temple, the temple, and you eat it there.

Giving 10 percent of you income is a tradition that has the potential to bind people, and that is something to get bent out of shape about. I was told I need to tithe to the church before helping my mom, and my mother-in-law, both widows with no income. That is a different gospel.

As for getting bent out of shape, why dies it always end up being an ad hominem when contrary ideas are posted? Who exactly is bent out of shape?

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If you would bother to actually read what I said, I think its pretty clear that I'm not a proponent of a tithe requirement (ie 'you must give 10%')

When I say there is a clear expectation that Christians will give to the Church I am referring to two things.

#1 It is clear in the New Testament that the ministers who serve the Church are to be paid for their work. Secondly it is also clear that the Church was intended to undertake "charity" work in the community and the first Church did this by giving a weekly dole to widows and orphans (who in their society had no other means of support).

Where do you think the money to pay ministers and to fund charity for orphans and widows came from? Obviously it comes from the congregation giving to the Church. So while there isn't a command "You must give thus and thus to the Church" there is a clear expectation that Christians will give.

#2 Paul collected a special offering from the Asian churches to help the impoverished Jerusalem church. Further, he told the Asian churches that he had the right to expect them to pay him and pay for his room and board but that he didn't because he wanted to make extra sure that nothing got in the way of his witnessing the gospel to them.

#3 From the very beginning "giving alms" was taught as part of Christian devotion and morality. This can be seen in the Didache which is probably the earliest written Christian document aside from the bible. It is a set of instructions for Christians probably written during the life time of the Apostles. In this letter it gives instructions regarding money. Pertinant to this discussion, it warns that Christians should be careful about who they give their 'alms' to (offerings or charitable giving).


There is no requirement of tithe, and you aren't going to be cursed for not giving 10%. Just like you aren't automatically going to have a check drop into your lap for 100 times what you give. Giving is not some magic formula either positively or negatively.

However, generosity and charity are Christian moral virtues that need to be taught and fostered. The Church as a whole has a duty to do good works in the community, especially helping the poor and those who are unable to help themselves. Christians individually should support that and participate in it.

Simon_Templar said:

There is no requirement of tithe, and you aren't going to be cursed for not giving 10%. Just like you aren't automatically going to have a check drop into your lap for 100 times what you give. Giving is not some magic formula either positively or negatively.

However, generosity and charity are Christian moral virtues that need to be taught and fostered. The Church as a whole has a duty to do good works in the community, especially helping the poor and those who are unable to help themselves. Christians individually should support that and participate in it.

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Agreed 100%

This become abundantly clear when you look at the first tithe:

I'll try again:

You will note Melchizedek brought out bread and wine (do I need to explain?) and then blessed Abram.

In response to being blessed, Abram tithed as an act of thanksgiving.


In Short -

Are we commanded to tithe - absolutely NOT

Our tithe should be like our thanksgivings and praise, spontaneous and from the heart, even when we don't feel like it.

Splitting hairs over the law.... blah, blah, blah, the differences between tithe and offering, blah, blah, blah... is completely missing the beauty of tithing and this form of worship/thanksgiving.

BOTH ends are wrong, because of the motive...

Ministers who shackle the people with demands for payment, or if you don't give you won't be blessed are just as wrong and just as bad as the individuals who come up with every reason they can find not to tithe.

Both are greed and both need to be repented of.

BTW - here is a GREAT book on tithing and giving from the Founder of the modern Word of Faith movement:





Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:


1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”


2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”


3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”


4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.


5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”


(Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)


Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,”



Hagin wrote.
Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.
Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?




LINK

But to answer the question

Yes you should tithe - but if your hearts not right, keep your money.

Balance said:

BTW - here is a GREAT book on tithing and giving from the Founder of the modern Word of Faith movement:

Here are a few of the points Hagin made in The Midas Touch:


1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”


2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”


3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”


4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.


5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”


(Many evangelists who appear on Christian television today use this bogus claim. Usually they insist that the miraculous debt cancellation will occur only if a person “gives right now,” as if the anointing for this miracle suddenly evaporates after the prime time viewing hour. This manipulative claim is more akin to witchcraft than Christian belief.)


Hagin condemned other hairbrained gimmicks designed to trick audiences into emptying their wallets. He was especially incensed when a preacher told his radio listeners that he would take their prayer requests to Jesus’ empty tomb in Jerusalem and pray over them there—if donors included a special love gift. “What that radio preacher really wanted was more people to send in offerings,”



Hagin wrote.
Thanks to the recent resurgence in bizarre donation schemes promoted by American charismatics, the prosperity gospel is back under the nation’s microscope. It’s time to revisit Hagin’s concerns and find a biblical balance.
Hagin told his followers: “Overemphasizing or adding to what the Bible actually teaches invariably does more harm than good.” If the man who pioneered the modern concept of biblical prosperity blew the whistle on his own movement, wouldn’t it make sense for us to listen to his admonition?




LINK

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A good word thanks for posting it. gg

Balance said:

Gen 14:18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said:
“ Blessed be Abram of God Most High,
Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.
​

You will note Melchizedek brought out bread and wine (do I need to explain?) and then blessed Abram...

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This is a good catch. A lot of people (including me for most of my life) totally miss the fact that the King of Salem brought out bread and wine. I am always amazed how much the New Testament is foreshadowed and symbolized in the old.

Tithing isn't a New Covenant principle.
Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war. It doesn't mean that he hunted down Melchizedek every time one of his flock gave birth to give him 1/10 of it.

Jesus himself accepted free will offerings and not the tithe. He couldn't by the law receive a tithe because He was of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. It was the tribe of Levi that Israel was to tithe to because they couldn't inherit land - therefore they couldn't grow food for themselves or have flocks. There inheritance was God and they were set apart to care for the things of God. So God made provision for them by instituting the tithe so that they could eat. In turn the Levites were to take a 10th of that and care for the widows, orphans and strangers (which they detested).

If the law stipulated that the tithe was for the Levites, then a preacher today couldn't demand a tithe unless they can prove that they are a Levite. This would be impossible to do because all genealogical records were kept in the temple and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the records as well.
From a New Covenant position, the book of Revelation says that He has made us (that would be every believer) Kings and Priests unto our God. If that is the case, then who do you tithe to? The book of Acts shows the New Covenant intention for giving... They all gave and it was distributed to each household as any one had need.
Paul says that we should give what we purpose in our heart cheerfully.

God had to place a command on giving in the Old Covenant because of the hardness of man's hearts. Had He not done so, the Priesthood would have starved to death.

1Sam1:6-7 said:

Tithing isn't a New Covenant principle.
Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils of war. It doesn't mean that he hunted down Melchizedek every time one of his flock gave birth to give him 1/10 of it.

Jesus himself accepted free will offerings and not the tithe. He couldn't by the law receive a tithe because He was of the tribe of Judah, not Levi. It was the tribe of Levi that Israel was to tithe to because they couldn't inherit land - therefore they couldn't grow food for themselves or have flocks. There inheritance was God and they were set apart to care for the things of God. So God made provision for them by instituting the tithe so that they could eat. In turn the Levites were to take a 10th of that and care for the widows, orphans and strangers (which they detested).

If the law stipulated that the tithe was for the Levites, then a preacher today couldn't demand a tithe unless they can prove that they are a Levite. This would be impossible to do because all genealogical records were kept in the temple and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD and the records as well.
From a New Covenant position, the book of Revelation says that He has made us (that would be every believer) Kings and Priests unto our God. If that is the case, then who do you tithe to? The book of Acts shows the New Covenant intention for giving... They all gave and it was distributed to each household as any one had need.
Paul says that we should give what we purpose in our heart cheerfully.

God had to place a command on giving in the Old Covenant because of the hardness of man's hearts. Had He not done so, the Priesthood would have starved to death.

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Very well said! Good biblical teaching there!

Four things the NT gentiles were told to be taught in acts. Tithing was I guess the runner up fifth, but that's still up in the air.

Svt4Him said:

Four things the NT gentiles were told to be taught in acts. Tithing was I guess the runner up fifth, but that's still up in the air.

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LOL

If Jesus has your heart he will have your purse.
Jesus said to love our neighbor as yourself. Do we? Would we buy something for ourselves while our neighbor is in need? Justifying it because God has blessed us and we have fulfilled our requirements by tithing?

LOL - Take all of me Lord, just not my money.

ydouxist said:

LOL

If Jesus has your heart he will have your purse.
Jesus said to love our neighbor as yourself. Do we? Would we buy something for ourselves while our neighbor is in need? Justifying it because God has blessed us and we have fulfilled our requirements by tithing?

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Oh, I'm sorry, I think we're talking about the law, which is the context it was taught in. So if that is the understanding, then it can be understood that that part of the law is no longer applicable. Tithing is a law.

It always amazes me though how people equate not tithing with not giving anything to God. Tithing is a law that requires certain, not all but certain, professions to give to bring to the temple and eat it there. Giving shows what's in our hearts. But I get the feeling when people make that claim it's to simply enforce a tradition that has been taught for a while...although in some cases it's self-serving.

Hopefully that answers your question.

Christians are going to have different views on this. I kinda agree with the-law-no-longer-applies christians who say you should give what you can. Some people need that ten percent to make the bills.

Some churches are large and need to keep the money coming in for activities, the pastor, admistration, and etc. Where else to they get the money from? They become a non profit and tell people to tithe because that is what a good Christian does. If you don't you won't be blessed.

The reality, in my opinion, God blesses you anyway, whether you tithe or not.

Bottom Line: If you go to church every sunday ( the reason why the church is there in the first place) then tithe what you can. The church needs to be financially supported by those who use it.

Svt4Him said:

Tithing is a law.

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Svt4Him said:

. Tithing is a law that requires certain,.

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And to some people Tithing is anything BUT a law. And our views are very different because of that.

ydouxist said:

LOL

If Jesus has your heart he will have your purse.
Jesus said to love our neighbor as yourself. Do we? Would we buy something for ourselves while our neighbor is in need? Justifying it because God has blessed us and we have fulfilled our requirements by tithing?

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Are you asking if we are fulfilling our requirements by tithing or are you saying we are?

Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Interestingly enough, I was reading Hebrews chapter 7 last night and this scripture jumped right out at me. If you look at this scripture you will see that the LEVITES were commanded to take tithes of the people (Israel). It was part of the law. No one can prove that they are of the levitical priesthood today and even if they could, they no longer hold the office of the priesthood because it belongs to all born again believers who are in Christ, our high priest. Tithing is an OC mentality (law) and is done away with.

1Sam1:6-7 said:

Hebrews 7:5
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Interestingly enough, I was reading Hebrews chapter 7 last night and this scripture jumped right out at me. If you look at this scripture you will see that the LEVITES were commanded to take tithes of the people (Israel). It was part of the law. No one can prove that they are of the levitical priesthood today and even if they could, they no longer hold the office of the priesthood because it belongs to all born again believers who are in Christ, our high priest. Tithing is an OC mentality (law) and is done away with.

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Your points are really good and biblical. I'm sure you understand that there are people who have accepted teachings at a young age in their Christian walk that promoted tithing, so they will not be all that receptive to how simple the truth is like you just presented.

Mar 12:41Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many [who were] rich put in much.

Mar 12:42Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, [fn] which make a quadrans.

Mar 12:43So He called His disciples to [Himself] and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;

Mar 12:44for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

She was giving out of a heart of full trust in God to sustain her not a regulation.

gratefulgrace said:

She was giving out of a heart of full trust in God to sustain her not a regulation.

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I have heard many people say that God blesses them because they tithe but then when I ask them if they tithe on the gross or the net they almost always tell me the net. So, when I ask them if they tithe on their income tax return, the answer is almost always "no."
I have even witnessed where tithers accused non tithers of not being born again. Even though the non tithers were more apt to reach out to those that are in need.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Tithing is the law and if you rely on "paying" your tithe to be blessed by God then you have made yourself a transgressor of the law if you don't pay tithes to a Levite or pay every cent that is due. There is so much more to tithing then the 10% that is taught in the church which ultimately places people under the law. According to Paul, when you go back to the law, you are fallen from grace.

If you want to give 10% of your money, that is all well and good. But God doesn't bless us or provide salvation to us because we are good and we give a tenth of our income. He blesses us because of what Jesus did... Jesus fulfilled the law. Only when we realize that it's a gift will our hearts change and we will stop trying to buy the blessing of God that Jesus purchased for us. Then out of a heart of gratitude and love we will have a heart to give. There is no more curse of the law because Jesus became a curse for us, therefore Malachi 3 is being used as a tool to beat people into a law that is abolished. Just sayin'. I am now stepping down from my soap box!