Homosexuality (Give me your opinion)

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LightHorseman

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Lighthorseman,
So we need to debate the meaning of Common Sense now?
Nope. I know what it means, I just explained it.

Which is pleasure. Dangerous generalisation that, so likewise paedophilia is functional because it does for the paedophile what it sets out to achieve? No, sex is not functional between a man and a pre-pubescent child, nor is it functional between two people of the same sex.
Pleasure can't be a function? I think you are mistaking functionality with morality. They aren't the same thing.


No, being something is not a function.
You're about to tie yourself up in semantic gibberish. Again. If only FUNCTIONAL things are acceptable to God, and BEING SOMETHING isn't a function, then I guess BEING left handed or BEING red haired is sinful.


There is no couple in question, I referred to the need for the species having two sexes
To reproduce. Duh. Were you away that day in year 7 biology?

However the ability to reproduce does NOT automatically make one an excelent parent, just as lacking the ability does not necessarily make one incapable of being a wonderful parent, or remove the desire to be one.
 
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catolico

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For those in doubt, to reiterate, the Bible clearly shows that homosexuality is abhored by God: Lev 20

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

It boggles the mind that some might imply that this means anything other than sex between two men.

is a simple and straightforward translation
 
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CreedIsChrist

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Not to mention any act involving the penis, since it is an excretary structure, and biological structures may ONLY be one or the other, sex organs or digestive/urinary/excretory, NEVER of dual purpose.

No, the urethra, and kidneys, is the excretory structure, not the reproductive organs themselves.

It just so happens that the urethra and the seminal glands or uterus are connected.
 
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David Brider

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However the ability to reproduce does NOT automatically make one an excelent parent, just as lacking the ability does not necessarily make one incapable of being a wonderful parent, or remove the desire to be one.

And more importantly, desire or intention to reproduce is not necessarily the reason why two people fall in love, get together as a couple, and (in many cases) get married. Hence, the fact that any given couple is incapable of reproduction doesn't make that couple's relationship a dysfunctional one.

Indeed, in using ability to reproduce as an indicator of whether or not a relationship is dysfunctional, brightmorningstar (whoops, sorry, "Phinehas2") is using the word "dysfunctional" in a sense in which it isn't normally used.

David.
 
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Phinehas2

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Lighthorseman,
Nope. I know what it means, I just explained it.
If you knew what it means you wouldn’t be defending what is dysfunctional and unnatural as normal. So maybe we do need to debate it to see the differences each other understands.

Which is pleasure. Dangerous generalisation that, so likewise paedophilia is functional because it does for the paedophile what it sets out to achieve? No, sex is not functional between a man and a pre-pubescent child, nor is it functional between two people of the same sex.
Pleasure can't be a function? I think you are mistaking functionality with morality. They aren't the same thing.
Sorry, so what is the function of sexual interaction between the same sex? How does it occur? If I poke my finger up my nose is it sexual interaction, or is a sexual organ required. Why is the anus a sexual organ and not the nose?

No, being something is not a function.
You're about to tie yourself up in semantic gibberish. [/quote[ So you must therefore think being something is a function. Can we go back to the meaning of common sense again please.
To reproduce. Duh. Were you away that day in year 7 biology?
So if one sex cant sexually reproduce with its sexual organs where is the function?


However the ability to reproduce does NOT automatically make one an excelent parent,
the inability to reproduce doesn’t make one a parent at all.

What you are referring to is a step or adoptive parent, not a biological one. Disordered and dysfunctional thinking again.
 
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David Brider

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For those in doubt, to reiterate, the Bible clearly shows that homosexuality is abhored by God: Lev 20

"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable."

It boggles the mind that some might imply that this means anything other than sex between two men.

And yet, as I pointed out elsewhere (possibly in this thread, possibly in another one) the fact that when that verse is used in Leviticus 18:22 it follows a dozen or so verses which all use a phrase translated as "do not have sexual relations with...", and then this verse suddenly uses this rather clunky expression "do not lie with a man as with a woman" (if memory serves me, the literal translation is something like "do not lie with a man the lyings of a woman," or something unwieldy like that) suggests to me that maybe the writer is not intending for this verse to refer to sexual relations. If that, as you put it, boggles your mind, then that's fair enough.

But even if we could ascertain that the verse to which you're referring clearly and unambiguously refers to male-male sexual intercourse, that's still a long way from the Bible clearly showing that homosexuality is abhorred by God, because homosexuality and male-male sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

David.
 
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catolico

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For those who might claim that homosexuality has no adverse affect on society I disagree.

First, studies have shown that homosexuals represent only 1-2% of the population. Also, by far the majority of people are heterosexual and in fact the idea of having homosexual sex is a very uncomfortable and unnatural idea.

What I have seen living outside of the US for some time now in a country where homosexuality is not widely condoned nor accepted is the still apparent camaraderie among men and people in general. It is not uncommon for men to greet other men who are complete strangers with a smile and start up a conversation, as it is considered civil.

It used to be this way in the US by all accounts. However, not anymore. More and more it is interpreted in the "street" that if a man is overtly friendly or smiles excessively to other men that this behavior means they are homosexual. I learned this the hard way in the Army in the 80's. Raised a Catholic I led somewhat a sheltered life and tried to apply my loving values in the real world. More often than not I was considered to be a homosexual, which was disconcerting to say the least. Nonetheless, I had to make a change unfortunately.

It wasn't until I moved to the Dominican Republic with out wife and kids some years back that I saw how much camaraderie is valued here. No longer would I considered a homosexual for being friendly. The difference between the DR and the US with respect to societal interaction too is just as far reaching. Here, people are open and it is not only ok to look at small children and smile, one can talk to them as well. People here know their neighbors and if they see an acquaintance out in town, they will track them down and talk to them. While the DR is a poor country and has an inefficient corrupt government still this aspect is superior to the US and Europe.

If people doubt what I say try see if people will even look at you passing by in the street. For that matter, try smiling to a guy (if you are a man) and striking up a conversation. I can assure you of the reaction in by far the majority of the cases.

The fact is the fear being "hit on" by homosexual is very much alive and well and normal in the US and is a simple knee jerk reaction to something that the majority of people find unappealing. Worse is the effect of not wanting to provoke such advances; people become reserved or downright antisocial. In fact, even I a devout Catholic found I had become borderline antisocial at times in my "public" demeanor.

As we human beings thrive on interpersonal contact, "love" in it's simple and most basic form, homosexuality quells this very natural manifestation of our humanness. I further propose this is why anymore people are becoming more and more downright antisocial in public, as the "calming effect" of this natural and good feature of humanity is all but being quashed. I think it could be postulated that there are other serious side effects of this coldening and hardening of our society due to the forced acceptance of homosexuality.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Isn't everyone getting a bit tied up with the whole idea of 'functions'? Things do what they can do, there's no manual ascribed to each categorised part. From an evolutionary point of view, if there is a selection pressure, then the parts involved have evolved to suit that pressure. If there is a selection pressure benefiting anal sex (or, more generally, male-male and/or female-female sex), then the body will evolve to suit it (subject to the armada of other selection pressures, of course).

It just so happens that making anal sex pleasurable confers benefits to the human species, and few (if any) detriments. So if you really want to get obsessed with 'functions', anal sex is the function of penises and anuses.

But like the notion of 'information', 'function' is a bogus idea in biology, beyond contrivances conjured up for human convenience. Don't get confused between the map with the territory.
 
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LittleNipper

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What is the function of reading a book? Watching a Star Trek movie? Engaging in conversation at a coffee shop?

No matter what one does it should be done as unto the LORD.

Colossians 3:17
and all, whatever ye may do in word or in work, do all things in the name of the Lord Jesus -- giving thanks to the God and Father, through him.
 
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Phinehas2

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b&wpac4,

What is the function of reading a book? Watching a Star Trek movie? Engaging in conversation at a coffee shop?
That’s a question, I wanted an answer. To your question, it is functional to reading a book, it is not functional to read a carrot. It is functional for the two sexes to interact sexually using their sexual organs, but one sex alone cant function sexually as only one sexual organ of the two exists.
 
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pwfaith

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Edit to add:
I just wanted to correct this bit of misinformation. When used correctly, the failure rate of condoms in only about 2% (source).

When used correctly (aka perfect-use) being the key lol And it really depends on the source...

14% failure rate - Overview: Birth Control : American Pregnancy Association

2% failure rate with perfect use - 15% actual use - Birth Control Failure Rates

15% Typical-use failure rate - 2% Perfect-use failure rate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods

We've been using condoms since about 2002 (off and on, due to obviously not needing them during pregnancy). We ended up in that 2% with perfect use :) Perfect use is what the failure rate is (or should be) if used correctly every time (meaning the right size is used, it's put on correctly, etc and it still malfunctions - breaks, comes off, or sperm just gets through anyway). Obviously it has a very high rate of typical use. And for teens, these numbers go WAY up! Up to almost 36%. It can also depend on the type of condom I believe - latex is better.

For condoms, the typical failure rate is about 12%, somewhat worse than birth-control pills (8%), but better than the diaphragm (18%), withdrawal (19%) and rhythm (20%). [Source: "Contraceptive Technology," Irvington Press, and Family Planning Perspectives journal.] Researchers know that, as with other methods, the failure figures include many couples who don't use contraception every time. If couples used condoms consistently and correctly, researchers estimate, the condom's failure rate would plummet to 2% or 3%, or perhaps even less.
An estimated 2% to 5% of condoms tear during use. Most of those failures are thought to stem from misuse, not inherent flaws. When condoms do break despite being used correctly, it's probably caused by hidden weaknesses in the rubber. Consumer Reports: Condom Reliability
Ok after reading that we have 2 that fall under their "typical failure rate" too lol we were not consistent with them at that point and time but I don't really blame that on the condom :D and our other one fell under the "perfect use" but we think we've fixed that now. :)
 
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pwfaith

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Hmmm ...does the above description not apply to whatever sexual organs are being used by either gays or straights? When one really looks at this closely sex in general is pretty obscene. Is this the best idea God could come up with? Sex should be banned, period!

Actually, rubbing noses ...or better still, ears ...would have been far more hygienic.

Then again . . .

That's not true at all. Unless there is an infection or STD involved, the penis and vagina are quite sanitary. No issues with the way God created sex here :blush:
 
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Wiccan_Child

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For those who might claim that homosexuality has no adverse affect on society I disagree.

First, studies have shown that homosexuals represent only 1-2% of the population.
And 0.06% of people have Dwarfism. If a minority group is deemed immoral and harmful to society if it has a prevalence of less than 5%, then why don't you consider Little People to be inherently detrimental to society? While their short stature poses health risks to them, what detriment do they post to soceity?

Or could it be the prevalence of a particular minority is no bearing on its inherent morality?

Also, by far the majority of people are heterosexual and in fact the idea of having homosexual sex is a very uncomfortable and unnatural idea.
For you. The majority of heterosexuals don't think about homosexual sex, and vice versa. But the internal 'ick' factor is to be expected regardless of the morality of homosexuality: heterosexuals, by definition, aren't attracted to their own sex, so, by definition, same-sex sex doesn't appeal to them*. Likewise, homosexuals aren't attracted to the opposite sex, so opposite-sex sex holds little attraction to them.

In other words, that heterosexuals are generally turned off by same-sex sex, that's neither surprising nor pertinent.

*A caveat: same-sex sex that involves their sex. Same-sex sex that involves the opposite sex (e.g., a man watching two women, or a woman watching two men) does not cause that same internal 'ick' factor. Straight men don't like male-male sex because they're not attracted to men, but they like female-female sex because they're attracted to females. This is a gross oversimplification, but you get my point.

What I have seen living outside of the US for some time now in a country where homosexuality is not widely condoned nor accepted is the still apparent camaraderie among men and people in general. It is not uncommon for men to greet other men who are complete strangers with a smile and start up a conversation, as it is considered civil.

It used to be this way in the US by all accounts. However, not anymore. More and more it is interpreted in the "street" that if a man is overtly friendly or smiles excessively to other men that this behavior means they are homosexual. I learned this the hard way in the Army in the 80's. Raised a Catholic I led somewhat a sheltered life and tried to apply my loving values in the real world. More often than not I was considered to be a homosexual, which was disconcerting to say the least. Nonetheless, I had to make a change unfortunately.

It wasn't until I moved to the Dominican Republic with out wife and kids some years back that I saw how much camaraderie is valued here. No longer would I considered a homosexual for being friendly. The difference between the DR and the US with respect to societal interaction too is just as far reaching. Here, people are open and it is not only ok to look at small children and smile, one can talk to them as well. People here know their neighbors and if they see an acquaintance out in town, they will track them down and talk to them. While the DR is a poor country and has an inefficient corrupt government still this aspect is superior to the US and Europe.
I agree with you thus far, except for the bit about Europe. I have never been accused of being homosexual for being friendly towards a stranger of my own sex, for the simple reason that no one over here (in the UK, at least) gives a monkey's. Sure, there are anti-gay people lurking in the shadows, but, by and large, it's a non-issue.
But I agree that, in the US, there is a curious social stigma associated with being attracted to one sex or the other (or both, or, indeed, neither).

If people doubt what I say try see if people will even look at you passing by in the street. For that matter, try smiling to a guy (if you are a man) and striking up a conversation. I can assure you of the reaction in by far the majority of the cases.

The fact is the fear being "hit on" by homosexual is very much alive and well and normal in the US and is a simple knee jerk reaction to something that the majority of people find unappealing. Worse is the effect of not wanting to provoke such advances; people become reserved or downright antisocial. In fact, even I a devout Catholic found I had become borderline antisocial at times in my "public" demeanor.
While a tragic comment on society and culture in the US, it seems you're arguing against the social stigma against homosexuality, rather than homosexuality itself. As I said above, in the UK, because no one cares whether you're gay or not, no one cares if one man is overly friendly to another (maybe he's gay, maybe he's drunk, maybe he's just full of joie de vivre). Is the existence of this lamentable social stigma not then a case against

As we human beings thrive on interpersonal contact, "love" in it's simple and most basic form, homosexuality quells this very natural manifestation of our humanness. I further propose this is why anymore people are becoming more and more downright antisocial in public, as the "calming effect" of this natural and good feature of humanity is all but being quashed. I think it could be postulated that there are other serious side effects of this coldening and hardening of our society due to the forced acceptance of homosexuality.
If there was some sort of 'forced' acceptance of homosexuality, that would negate the effect you talked about. As it happens, there's nothing forced about it: people are growing up, and new generations no longer see it as this dark perversion that the older generation generally did. The moral zeitgeist moves on, and the stubborn will always moan about a past lost to some perceived activism.

Did you know that those opposed to interracial marriage labelled lawmakers as 'activist judges'? Sound familiar?
And when did activism become a bad thing :scratch:

Anyway. Your three objections, 1) that homosexuality is rare, 2)that same-sex sex is generally unappealing to heterosexuals, and 3) that the social stigma in US society against homosexuality has created an air of distrust towards percieved homosexuals, are not objections to homosexuality. They're either irrelevant as objections, or objections to something else entirely.
 
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Maren

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And yet, as I pointed out elsewhere (possibly in this thread, possibly in another one) the fact that when that verse is used in Leviticus 18:22 it follows a dozen or so verses which all use a phrase translated as "do not have sexual relations with...", and then this verse suddenly uses this rather clunky expression "do not lie with a man as with a woman" (if memory serves me, the literal translation is something like "do not lie with a man the lyings of a woman," or something unwieldy like that) suggests to me that maybe the writer is not intending for this verse to refer to sexual relations. If that, as you put it, boggles your mind, then that's fair enough.

But even if we could ascertain that the verse to which you're referring clearly and unambiguously refers to male-male sexual intercourse, that's still a long way from the Bible clearly showing that homosexuality is abhorred by God, because homosexuality and male-male sexual intercourse are not the same thing.

David.

Yes, the actually direct translation of Leviticus is, "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman". To be fair, lyings is typically interepreted as bed, so it would be "And with a male you shall not lay bed of a woman." So, to me, the clear translation would be much closer to the idea that a married man having sex with another male is a sin (that it is still adultery).

It is also worth noting that the list of sins requiring death between Leviticus and Deuteronomy largely line up with one exception. Leviticus (at least as some people here understand it) requires death for homosexual acts and Deuteronomy spells out death for having sex with a temple prostitute (an acolyte of a Pagan religion who would have sex as part of religious rites). As such, there are many who believe -- and again based on the odd wording of Leviticus -- that the sin is actually having sex with a male (likely a castrated male) temple prostitute. They further support this by pointing out Romans 1 is talking of pagan religious rites that were performed in Greece in Paul's time.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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That's not true at all. Unless there is an infection or STD involved, the penis and vagina are quite sanitary. No issues with the way God created sex here :blush:
Tell that to people with phimosis. I don't have it, but man it looks painful. And then there are women with, erm, overly dry vaginas. And then there's general sterility conditions. Indeed, all the faults and flaws of the human body (including the ones that would point to bad design, had we been designed).

Basically, yea. Oh, and female-female sex is the safest form of sex. If we're going by safety, you should be a lesbian.
 
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Fenny the Fox

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If people doubt what I say try see if people will even look at you passing by in the street. For that matter, try smiling to a guy (if you are a man) and striking up a conversation. I can assure you of the reaction in by far the majority of the cases.

The fact is the fear being "hit on" by homosexual is very much alive and well and normal in the US and is a simple knee jerk reaction to something that the majority of people find unappealing. Worse is the effect of not wanting to provoke such advances; people become reserved or downright antisocial. In fact, even I a devout Catholic found I had become borderline antisocial at times in my "public" demeanor.

As we human beings thrive on interpersonal contact, "love" in it's simple and most basic form, homosexuality quells this very natural manifestation of our humanness. I further propose this is why anymore people are becoming more and more downright antisocial in public, as the "calming effect" of this natural and good feature of humanity is all but being quashed. I think it could be postulated that there are other serious side effects of this coldening and hardening of our society due to the forced acceptance of homosexuality.


Interestingly, I do this often. Smile at random people. Say hello to them. Even TALK to them. I have never once had someone assume I was "hitting on them".

They may have assumed I was rather eccentric - which would be correct.
They may have assumed I was nice and/or polite.
They may have assumed any number of things.

But I have not once had someone assume I was hitting on them. Or even think I might be gay - as far as I have seen, at least - just because I am smiling at them, or talking to them at random in line, or in the store, or what-have-you.
 
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