Why the sabbath was made before sin !

Cribstyl · Aug 3, 2009

capbook said:
Yes it is not, is the covenant in the verse below is the ten commandments?

Gen 21:32
32 Thus they made a covenant at Beersheba. So Abimelech rose with Phichol, the commander of his army, and they returned to the land of the Philistines.
NKJV

It is not, as covenant defined as - An agreement between two people or two groups that involves promises on the part of each to the other. The concept of covenant between God and His people is one of the most important theological truths of the Bible.

(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

You know it's not the Old Covenant, so why even present it at all?

In post #77 you identified the Old Covenant as contained in Ex 19:5-8.
It appears from reading the chapter and the verses you presented, the people's words were in anticipation of what God would say to them.
Ex 24 presents the covenant as all the words that God spoke from Sinai included the ten commandments.

Exd 24:8And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

My initial dialog with you is to hopefully identify the Old Covenant, not what it's not.

Exd 34:27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

Exd 34:28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Deut 5 seems to articulate the covenant that was given at Horeb(Sinai)

Deu 5:2

Texts say that the covenant is the ten commandments, you said NO,....Care to explain?

Respectfully
CRIB

capbook · Aug 3, 2009

As the word covenant defined by NIBD - as an agreement between two people or two groups that involves promises on the part of each to the other. The concept of covenant between God and His people is one of the most important theological truths of the Bible.

(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publisher)

I believe that;
1. Covenant - means an agreement, promises, compact etc.,
2. Words of the covenant - as the ten commandments,
3. Tablets of the covenant - as the ten commandments,
4. Ark of the covenant - as the case where inside is the ten commandments.

Another definition of covenant from TWOT below;

282aOT:1285 tyr]B= ‎(‎b®rit‎) covenant between nations: a treaty, alliance of friendship; between individuals: a pledge or agreement; with obligation between monarch and subjects: a constitution; between God and man: a covenant accompanied by signs, sacrifices, and a solemn oath that sealed the relationship with promises of blessing for keeping the covenant and curses for breaking it.

[FONT=&quot](from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright © 1980 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)

In NKJV, the word "covenant" appear 313 times and I believe it means agreement, compact, promises and etc, as defined above.

[/FONT]

Cribstyl · Aug 4, 2009

capbook said:
As the word covenant defined by NIBD - as an agreement between two people or two groups that involves promises on the part of each to the other. The concept of covenant between God and His people is one of the most important theological truths of the Bible.

(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright © 1986, Thomas Nelson Publisher)

I believe that;
1. Covenant - means an agreement, promises, compact etc.,
2. Words of the covenant - as the ten commandments,
3. Tablets of the covenant - as the ten commandments,
4. Ark of the covenant - as the case where inside is the ten commandments.

Another definition of covenant from TWOT below;

282aOT:1285 tyr]B= ‎(‎b®rit‎) covenant between nations: a treaty, alliance of friendship; between individuals: a pledge or agreement; with obligation between monarch and subjects: a constitution; between God and man: a covenant accompanied by signs, sacrifices, and a solemn oath that sealed the relationship with promises of blessing for keeping the covenant and curses for breaking it.

[FONT=&quot](from Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament. Copyright © 1980 by The Moody Bible Institute of Chicago. All rights reserved. Used by permission.)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]In NKJV, the word "covenant" appear 313 times and I believe it means agreement, compact, promises and etc, as defined above.

[/FONT][/FONT]

Thank you

........
What would you say is the Old Covenant?

What would you say is the New Covenant?

CRIB

capbook · Aug 4, 2009

Cribstyl said:
Thank you ........
What would you say is the Old Covenant?

What would you say is the New Covenant?

CRIB

To me, before the giving of the ten commandments an agreement/covenant (meeting of minds) between God and the people of Israel, this I considered the old covenant, please find verse below especially those I colored red;

Ex 19:5-8
5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
7 So Moses went back and summoned the elders of the people and set before them all the words the Lord had commanded him to speak.
8 The people all responded together, "We will do everything the Lord has said." So Moses brought their answer back to the Lord.
NIV

And this I consider as the new covenant, please find verse below;

Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
NKJV

As the first/old covenant was found faulty (always violated) in verse 7, a new covenant God had made in verse 8 and 10.
For them to always feel and be reminded, God put His laws in their mind and write them on their hearts instead from the tablets of stone. And He will be their God, and they shall be His people.

I hope and pray for your understanding on what I meant.

Thank you and God bless.

capbook

dragNdrop · Aug 5, 2009

CapBook

Your argument is weakened by the fact that the Ten Commandments are called
the tables of the Covenant.

"And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread,
nor drank water. And He wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the
Ten Commandments.." Exod 34:28

It is a waste of time to try and argue that the Ten Commandments were not a Law of the Covenant.

capbook · Aug 5, 2009

dragNdrop said:
CapBook

Your argument is weakened by the fact that the Ten Commandments are called
the tables of the Covenant.

"And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread,
nor drank water. And He wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the
Ten Commandments.." Exod 34:28

It is a waste of time to try and argue that the Ten Commandments were a Law of the Covenant.

Thanks for the comments, God bless.

MLEN · Aug 6, 2009

Hi,

My absolute favorite scripture about the Sabbath is found in Isaiah 56:2-8 because it speaks of how anyone (Jew or non-Jew) who keeps the Sabbath will be blessed. In this passage, the non-Jew is referred to as "the stranger".

Otherwise, you may type in the word `sabbath' where required under the Super Bible Search tab of the following world wide web link page to get a full list of every mention of it in the entire Bible:

crcbermuda.com

In this list, we find passages to show that Christ's closest followers (the apostles) continued to keep the Sabbath even after our Savior was nailed to the cross.

God Bless

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 7, 2009

Your argument is weakened by the fact that the Ten Commandments are called
the tables of the Covenant.

In what way does this fact alter the discussion in this thread? No one is denying that the ten commandments were the basis of the old covenant. However, we are noticing that the new covenant is not like the old (see Hebrews 8 and Luke 22:20).

"And he was there with Jehovah forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread,

nor drank water. And He wrote upon the tablets the words of the covenant, the
Ten Commandments.." Exod 34:28

Do you advocate for all of the God-given commands set out in the chapter you cited (i.e. Exodus 34)? Does the SDA denomination? If not, why not?

It is a waste of time to try and argue that the Ten Commandments were a Law of the Covenant.

What does 2 Corinthians 3 tell us?

BFA

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 7, 2009

MLEN said:
Otherwise, you may type in the word `sabbath' where required under the Super Bible Search tab of the following world wide web link page to get a full list of every mention of it in the entire Bible:

This is a fascinating study. Thank you for suggesting it MLEN.

At the heart of SDA theology, we find the human assumption that the sabbath is separate from other God-given laws. When a person conducts a study of every mention of the word "sabbath" in Scripture, one quickly notices that this claim made by the SDA denomination is not confirmed in Scripture. In fact, there is a direct link between the seventh day sabbath and other practices that the SDA denomination views as "ceremonial."

For example, in Exodus 34, God writes with His own finger His commands and He includes not only the seventh day sabbath, but also the feast of unleavened bread, the passover, the feast of weeks and the feast of ingathering.

It would seem that God made no mistake in Exodus 34, for He consistently groups the sabbaths together with practices that even SDAs believe have been fulfilled. These practices include new moons, holy convocations and festivals, burnt offerings, grain offerings, shewbread, the 7-year rest and frankincense.

Please consider for yourself the ways in which the sabbath is grouped together with practices that even SDAs believe are fulfilled:

1. Shewbread and setting out bread

"Some of their relatives of the sons of the Kohathites were over the showbread to prepare it every sabbath." 1 Chronicles 9:32

"This bread is to be set out before the LORD regularly, Sabbath after Sabbath, on behalf of the Israelites, as a lasting covenant." Leviticus 24:8

2. Frankincense
"You shall put pure frankincense on each row that it may be a memorial portion for the bread, even an offering by fire to the LORD. Every sabbath day he shall set it in order before the LORD continually; it is an everlasting covenant for the sons of Israel." Lev. 24:7-8

3. New moons
"He said, "Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor sabbath." And she said, "It will be well." 2 Kings 4:23

"And it shall be from new moon to new moon. And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD." Isaiah 66:23

"Thus says the Lord GOD, "The gate of the inner court facing east shall be shut the six working days; but it shall be opened on the sabbath day and opened on the day of the new moon." Ezekiel 46:1

"Then Solomon offered burnt offerings to the LORD on the altar of the LORD which he had built before the porch; and did so according to the daily rule, offering them up according to the commandment of Moses, for the sabbaths, the new moons and the three annual feasts--the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Booths." 2 Chronicles 8:12-13

"We also placed ourselves under obligation to contribute yearly one third of a shekel for the service of the house of our God: for the showbread, for the continual grain offering, for the continual burnt offering, the sabbaths, the new moon, for the appointed times, for the holy things and for the sin offerings to make atonement for Israel, and all the work of the house of our God." Nehemiah 10:32-33

3. The 7th year rest
"You shall sow your land for six years and gather in its yield, but on the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, so that the needy of your people may eat; and whatever they leave the beast of the field may eat. You are to do the same with your vineyard and your olive grove." Ex. 23:10-11

"During the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard." Lev. 25:4

4. Offerings (Burnt & Grain)
"The burnt offering which the prince shall offer to the LORD on the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish." Ezekiel 46:4

"When the prince provides a freewill offering, a burnt offering, or peace offerings as a freewill offering to the LORD, the gate facing east shall be opened for him And he shall provide his burnt offering and his peace offerings as he does on the sabbath day. Then he shall go out, and the gate shall be shut after he goes out." Ezekiel 46:12

"Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: 'This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering." Numbers 28:9-10

"They are to stand every morning to thank and to praise the LORD, and likewise at evening, and to offer all burnt offerings to the LORD, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the LORD." 1 Chronicles 23:30-31

"He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the LORD." 2 Chronicles 31:3

"Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly." Isaiah 1:13

"It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Ezekiel 45:17

5. Other sabbaths such as Religious festivals or holy convocations
"'Every one of you shall reverence his mother and his father, and you shall keep My sabbaths; I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:3

"The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD. 'These are the LORD's appointed feasts, the sacred assemblies you are to proclaim at their appointed times: The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. On the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins; for seven days you must eat bread made without yeast. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work. For seven days present an offering made to the LORD by fire. And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.' The LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you enter the land I am going to give you and you reap its harvest, bring to the priest a sheaf of the first grain you harvest. He is to wave the sheaf before the LORD so it will be accepted on your behalf; the priest is to wave it on the day after the Sabbath. On the day you wave the sheaf, you must sacrifice as a burnt offering to the LORD a lamb a year old without defect, together with its grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oilan offering made to the LORD by fire, a pleasing aromaand its drink offering of a quarter of a hin of wine. You must not eat any bread, or roasted or new grain, until the very day you bring this offering to your God. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live . . . " Leviticus 23

"You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the LORD." Lev. 26:2

"Behold, I am about to build a house for the name of the LORD my God, dedicating it to Him, to burn fragrant incense before Him and to set out the showbread continually, and to offer burnt offerings morning and evening, on sabbaths and on new moons and on the appointed feasts of the LORD our God, this being required forever in Israel." 2 Chronicles 2:4

"Also I gave them My sabbaths to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them." Ezekiel 20:12

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths." Ezekiel 44:24

"I will also put an end to all her gaiety, Her feasts, her new moons, her sabbaths And all her festal assemblies." Hosea 2:11

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." Col. 2:16-17

BFA

Cribstyl · Aug 8, 2009

BF1 said:
#89

Facts cant hide...sabbath proves to be a sign and also ceromonial.

capbook · Aug 9, 2009

Cribstyl said:
Facts cant hide...sabbath proves to be a sign and also ceromonial.

Fingerwritten Sabbath is not ceremonial.

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 10, 2009

capbook said:
Fingerwritten Sabbath is not ceremonial.

If a person sets aside the seventh day but does not offer animal sacrifices during it, does that person "keep" the sabbath as God commanded it to be kept?

How is the sabbath to be kept?

Why is the sabbath so closely affiliated with all things that some consider "ceremonial?"

BFA

freeport · Aug 10, 2009

dragNdrop said:
The latest arguments from my SDA friend, made me see that the Sabbat was indeed set before Creation.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And on the seventh [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]eventh day from all his [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]work which he had made.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]blessed[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] the [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]seventh day, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]sanctified[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] it:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] because [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] Gen 2:1-3[/FONT]

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exod 20:11

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]There are two ways of interpreting the above passages[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God rested on a seventh day after six days of creation. Afterwards He declared all [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the future Saturdays as holy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Now since the Sabbath was made before sin it cannot fallout due to the Cross. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]How [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]can the Cross replace an institution made before there was sin ? How can it replace [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]an institution that has nothing to do with humanity's depravity or sin ? [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God by laying that first Saturday aside for his rest, was sanctifying that first [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Saturday. ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Remember that to sanctify something is to set it apart for God's use.)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This understanding does not demand that we believe that God was declaring all [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Saturdays holy before Moses came.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As for the view that God just blessed the first Saturday and not all Saturdays my friend asked a very real question[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]: Was God tired that he should need rest on a seventh day ?. Was not God doing this for our example ? I NOTICED THAT NON OF US COULD CHALLENGE MY FRIENDS 'ARGUMENTS.
[/FONT]
Now this opens a new dimension of thought in this debate. If God set a Sabbath before sin or the Fall then the Cross which is a sin solution has nothing to do ith it's sanctity.

Every day is Holy to God.

The Seventh Day of rest, is also prophecy of the Seventh Day (seven thousand years), the Millennium spoken of in Scripture.

dragNdrop · Aug 13, 2009

Freeport, whilst I appreciate your input, please do not introduce other subjects like a
'Millenium Sabbath', which are good for another occasion.

Cribstyl · Aug 13, 2009

capbook said:
Fingerwritten Sabbath is not ceremonial.

Read the scriptures, Sabbath is a sign, no other of the 10commandments are signs.
The truth is, there is nothing moral about the 4th commandment.
Why?...... Because every day has 24hrs and unless you're told to rest one of 7days, you'd never know you was breaking a commandment.

CRIB

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 13, 2009

Cribstyl said:
The truth is, there is nothing moral about the 4th commandment.

How true. To make the claim that there is something moral about the fourth commandment, one would have to assert that there is something immoral about work.

BFA

NaLuvena · Aug 15, 2009

The 4th commandment is a memorial, to the fact that God is the Creator of the Universe.

Byfaithalone1 · Aug 17, 2009

NaLuvena said:
The 4th commandment is a memorial, to the fact that God is the Creator of the Universe.

If Deuteronomy 5 is accurate, then the fourth commandment must also be considered a memorial or a reminder of the Israelite's exodus from Egypt.

Now, back to my previous post. Is work immoral?

BFA

NaLuvena · Aug 17, 2009

The morality of the work, depends what work you're referring to...work in itself is neither moral or immoral, it's just...work.

Now the text in Deuteronomy 5 is Moses repeating and reinforcing what God had said at Sinai (Exodus 20). Moses linked the Sabbath to the fact that the God who brought them out of Egypt, commanded them to keep it. It was not the reason for the Sabbath.

Deuteronomy 5

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.

15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

In the original utterance, God said the reason for the Sabbath, was for a memorial to His creation of the universe.

Exodus 20

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

NaLuvena · Aug 18, 2009

Byfaithalone1 said:
How true. To make the claim that there is something moral about the fourth commandment, one would have to assert that there is something immoral about work.

BFA

Sorry, you both miss the point.

The morality of the 4th commandment, does not come from the work one abstains from, but from the fact that God commanded it.

The morality, comes from God.

Why the sabbath was made before sin !

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