Why the sabbath was made before sin !

[Byfaithalone1]

If God established the ten commandments before the fall, why did He allow Deuteronoy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-19 to be written?

BFA

Drag-n-drop, do you have any thoughts on this question?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Drag-n-drop, do you have any thoughts on this question? If God established the ten commandments before the fall, why did He allow Deuteronoy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-19 to be written?

BFA

Are you asking me? I do not believe the premise, i.e God established the 10 commandments before the fall...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Are you asking me? I do not believe the premise, i.e God established the 10 commandments before the fall...

No, I was asking Drag-n-Drop. That's why I addressed my question to him/her.

DND, why do you suppose God allowed Deuteronoy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-19 to be written?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

DND, why do you suppose God allowed Deuteronoy 5:1-5 and Galatians 3:15-19 to be written?

For the same reason God allows you to write.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

For the same reason God allows you to write.

I was hoping for a reply that might deal with that which is written in Deut. 5 and Galatians 3, presumably from DND or others who share his viewpoint. From your prior posts, it seems that you do not share DND's viewpoint on this subject. If I've misunderstood, please let me know.

BFA

 

[dragNdrop]

Hi

It's been long. I'm busy working on a study pertaining the 1844 Doctrine and Ellen White's strange visions. I have not had time to deal with Sabbath related issues lately.

In reply to BFA question this is what I'd say:

First let me follow the train of your logic. Deut 5:1-5 prove that God
established a particular Covenant with Israel for the very first time with Israel in Moses' time.

Then I'd presume that the next step is to conclude that the Ten Commandments (which includes the 4th /Sabbath) called the 'tables of
the Covenant' or 'Law of the Covenant' did not exist before Moses because before Moses there was no Covenant. Right ?

Gal 3:15-19 speaks of a covenant and a promise made to Abraham and a law given to Israel 430 yrs latter. This again would prove that there were
no 10 Commandments (incl.Sabbath) before the Fall. Right ?

Is that where you're going with this ? If we're saying this, then without the law how did Abraham, Cain, Joseph know that murder, adultery was sin without the law ?

On another subject. Why don't you guys believe that God was setting and example in Gen 2:1-3 ? I do not get crystal clear your reasons.
Please specify your reasons. Spell your reasons out.

 

[Sophia7]

Hi

It's been long. I'm busy working on a study pertaining the 1844 Doctrine and Ellen White's strange visions. I have not had time to deal with Sabbath related issues lately.

In reply to BFA question this is what I'd say:

First let me follow the train of your logic. Deut 5:1-5 prove that God
established a particular Covenant with Israel for the very first time with Israel in Moses' time.

Then I'd presume that the next step is to conclude that the Ten Commandments (which includes the 4th /Sabbath) called the 'tables of
the Covenant' or 'Law of the Covenant' did not exist before Moses because before Moses there was no Covenant. Right ?

Gal 3:15-19 speaks of a covenant and a promise made to Abraham and a law given to Israel 430 yrs latter. This again would prove that there were
no 10 Commandments (incl.Sabbath) before the Fall. Right ?

Is that where you're going with this ? If we're saying this, then without the law how did Abraham, Cain, Joseph know that murder, adultery was sin without the law ?

On another subject. Why don't you guys believe that God was setting and example in Gen 2:1-3 ? I do not get crystal clear your reasons.
Please specify your reasons. Spell your reasons out.

Do you need a law to tell you that murder is wrong?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Is that where you're going with this?

The Bible teaches that the law was added, not that it always existed.

If we're saying this, then without the law how did Abraham, Cain, Joseph know that murder, adultery was sin without the law?

The same way that persons living since the Seed has come know that sin exists--the Holy Spirit. See John 14 and John 16.

On another subject. Why don't you guys believe that God was setting and example in Gen 2:1-3 ? I do not get crystal clear your reasons. Please specify your reasons. Spell your reasons out.

Because the passage does not say that God was setting an example in Genesis 2:1-3. This idea is wholly based on an assumption. A number of assumptions are connected with it. These include:

(1) God continued to set aside each seventh day as a day of rest,
(2) God will continue to set aside each seventh day as a day of rest throughout eternity,
(3) men who lived prior to Moses set aside each seventh day as a day of rest,
(4) men who lived following Christ's ascension set aside each seventh day as a day of rest,
(5) in Heaven, men will continue to set aside each seventh day as a day of rest,
(6) those who do not set aside each seventh day as a day of rest will one day be in danger of receiving the mark of the beast, and
(7) the issue of setting aside each seventh day as a day of rest will one day be the great dividing wall between those who are of God and those who are not of God.
​

It is problematic when an entire system of theology is built upon a series of assumptions.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

It is problematic when an entire system of theology is built upon a series of assumptions.

I assume you understand the application of this one-liner to Christianity - not just Adventism.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I assume you understand the application of this one-liner to Christianity - not just Adventism.

Absolutely! And if you have any question regarding your assumption about me, check out this post (i.e. post #3 in the thread).

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Do you need a law to tell you that murder is wrong?

There is a difference between an innate sense our relationships within the systems we occupy, and conscience. The first is modulated by reason - we learn into a greater understanding of rightness. The second is imparted - we assume it from others.

Conscience may be helpful while the potential of the innate sense is realized. Conscience may be harmful if it occludes learning.

Unfortunately, the SDA "Sabbath Consciousness" is about conscience, not rightness. This is why many formers felt manipulated by the church.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There is a difference between an innate sense our relationships within the systems we occupy, and conscience. The first is modulated by reason - we learn into a greater understanding of rightness. The second is imparted - we assume it from others.

Conscience may be helpful while the potential of the innate sense is realized. Conscience may be harmful if it occludes learning.

Unfortunately, the SDA "Sabbath Consciousness" is about conscience, not rightness. This is why many formers felt manipulated by the church.

The church? Which church?

It's not an issue of feeling manipulated. It is simply an issue of considering that which justification and salvation are based on. I just haven't found a basis for concluding that a day is coming in which justification and salvation will be contingent upon sabbath keeping. I wasn't manipulated. I reached my own conclusion on the subject independent of that which SDAism teaches.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

I just haven't found a basis for concluding that a day is coming in which justification and salvation will be contingent upon sabbath keeping.

Yes you have. You are also your history.

At least that's what I remember you implying about your history as a SDA. Yes?

 

[Sophia7]

There is a difference between an innate sense our relationships within the systems we occupy, and conscience. The first is modulated by reason - we learn into a greater understanding of rightness. The second is imparted - we assume it from others.

Conscience may be helpful while the potential of the innate sense is realized. Conscience may be harmful if it occludes learning.

Unfortunately, the SDA "Sabbath Consciousness" is about conscience, not rightness. This is why many formers felt manipulated by the church.

Yes, I agree that there is a difference between conscience and an innate sense of rightness or morality. I was referring to the latter in my question (or at least that was my intent). I think that the consciences of many Adventists have been so molded by doctrine, especially the Adventist focus on the law and the Sabbath, that they have a hard time seeing that morality transcends law.

I personally have never felt manipulated by the SDA Church or by any particular people within the Adventist community. I know that many other formers do feel that way (and some even go so far as to call it "spiritual abuse"), but I wasn't raised in a traditional/historic Adventist environment, as many of those who have left were, so that probably affects how I view my whole experience in Adventism.

 

[Avonia]

I think that the consciences of many Adventists have been so molded by doctrine, especially the Adventist focus on the law and the Sabbath, that they have a hard time seeing that morality transcends law.

That's right. And one of the best measures for this is whether or not a person experiences guilt. During one of my first weeks at SDA summer camp, we took a trip into town for an event. I had my first Coca-Cola. An interesting juxtaposition of guilt and euphoria. Even at that age, I had a suspicion that guilt was not an appropriate emotion.

 

[Sophia7]

That's right. And one of the best measures for this is whether or not a person experiences guilt. During one of my first weeks at SDA summer camp, we took a trip into town for an event. I had my first Coca-Cola. An interesting juxtaposition of guilt and euphoria. Even at that age, I had a suspicion that guilt was not an appropriate emotion.

I know what you mean. I've experienced those feelings, too--not over Coke (which wasn't forbidden in my family while I was growing up) but over other things. I suppose we all have hangups like that--little things that most people wouldn't even think about but that evoke such emotions in us. It's not limited to Adventism, but Adventism does seem to instill a lot more of those hangups through its teachings than many other Christian churches.

 

[Avonia]

but Adventism does seem to instill a lot more of those hangups through its teachings than many other Christian churches.

For some of us, there was more emphasis on why we were different than other Christians than that we were Christians. Sabbath, sanctuary, diet, sleep at death - and on.

 

[Cribstyl]

Yea, it seems that those who are not vegetarians feel a lack of perfection to a degree that they make plans to become one for spiritual reasons. There seem to be an understanding among SDA about perfection that will cause Christ's soon return.

 

[Avonia]

Yea, it seems that those who are not vegetarians feel a lack of perfection to a degree that they make plans to become one for spiritual reasons. There seem to be an understanding among SDA about perfection that will cause Christ's soon return.

While this may be true of some Adventists, the larger issue is the Christian teaching of unworthiness. We tell people they were born bad and are then surprised when they behave badly.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

While this may be true of some Adventists, the larger issue is the Christian teaching of unworthiness. We tell people they were born bad and are then surprised when they behave badly.

If there is communication that human rightousness is as filthy rags, the source of this communication is the Bible. We should not be surprised that humans behave badly. Without the Bible, there is plenty of history to confirm that humans behave badly. Your post seems to suggest that, if men were never told they were bad, they would never behave badly. If that is your suggestion, that is quite a claim.

Who are we to be? Is perfection our calling?

BFA