Why the sabbath was made before sin !

[Avonia]

Without the Bible, there is plenty of history to confirm that humans behave badly. Your post seems to suggest that, if men were never told they were bad, they would never behave badly.

Religion has been a good modality - but it is not the only one. Any world view, or circumstance, that furthers the illusion of separation - which is really a confusion of identity - furthers bad behavior.

Who are we to be? Is perfection our calling?

We talk about perfection an end point. This is a source of confusion. If there was an end point of perfection we reached upon arrival in Heaven, it would be intolerable.

Creation is an unfolding.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Religion has been a good modality - but it is not the only one. Any world view, or circumstance, that furthers the illusion of separation - which is really a confusion of identity - furthers bad behavior.

I can see reasons why this might be true, especially since you've phrased it as "furthers bad behavior" (as opposed to creating the bad behavior).

We talk about perfection an end point. This is a source of confusion. If there was an end point of perfection we reached upon arrival in Heaven, it would be intolerable. Creation is an unfolding.

Would you agree that the creator is more interested in the journey and less interested in the destination? I have always wondered whether this may be true.

BFA

 

[Sophia7]

Yea, it seems that those who are not vegetarians feel a lack of perfection to a degree that they make plans to become one for spiritual reasons. There seem to be an understanding among SDA about perfection that will cause Christ's soon return.

That depends on which Adventists you talk to. I've been both vegetarian and non-vegetarian as an Adventist. I was not raised vegetarian. My reasons for not eating meat never included the belief that vegetarianism made me more spiritual or more perfect or would cause Christ to return sooner. Those ideas were foreign to my personal experience since I was not raised in a very traditional Adventist home, and my parents were not all that fond of Ellen White's writings. However, I do know some Adventists who believe as you describe.

 

[Avonia]

My reasons for not eating meat never included the belief that vegetarianism made me more spiritual or more perfect or would cause Christ to return sooner.

This is what's so crazy about belief. It's a poor substitute for knowledge. We know so much about how food affects the body. And we know from our own experience what makes us feel healthy - and what doesn't. The Bible is a really poor reference when it comes to diet.

I eat what helps me function well in the world - for the most part. For me, that's a vegetarian diet. For others, it may not be. One thing I did discover a few years ago is the power of fasting. I was taught how to fast by a woman with great knowledge on the issue - and how to do it so it's not a shock to the body. What I've discovered is that this produces a clarity that's really wonderful. Again, I don't know if that would be true for everyone - some people may just get hungry. But I do, so clearly, remember how much I disliked those Sabbath fasts as a child.

However, I do know some Adventists who believe as you describe.

My experience of Adventism has been greatly more diverse than what many others have described. I think this is because of me, because of where I have lived, and because of things I seek to know. And probably a little chance. But it has been valuable to hear the range of experience of other people.


Now to the OP - sort of. Sophia, as you have noticed, I rarely participate in the Sabbath OPs. However, I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

What's your experience been?

 

[Sophia7]

This is what's so crazy about belief. It's a poor substitute for knowledge. We know so much about how food affects the body. And we know from our own experience what makes us feel healthy - and what doesn't. The Bible is a really poor reference when it comes to diet.

I eat what helps me function well in the world - for the most part. For me, that's a vegetarian diet. For others, it may not be. One thing I did discover a few years ago is the power of fasting. I was taught how to fast by a woman with great knowledge on the issue - and how to do it so it's not a shock to the body. What I've discovered is that this produces a clarity that's really wonderful. Again, I don't know if that would be true for everyone - some people may just get hungry. But I do, so clearly, remember how much I disliked those Sabbath fasts as a child.

I agree that what works for one person as far as diet may not work for everyone. Even at different stages of our lives, our dietary needs change; at least mine have.

My experience of Adventism has been greatly more diverse than what many others have described. I think this is because of me, because of where I have lived, and because of things I seek to know. And probably a little chance. But it has been valuable to hear the range of experience of other people.

I also find it valuable to hear the experiences of others.

Now to the OP - sort of. Sophia, as you have noticed, I rarely participate in the Sabbath OPs. However, I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

What's your experience been?

I think that you make a good point about Sabbath practices/rituals/traditions having changed over time. Most Adventists that I know don't actually keep the Sabbath according to the OT law, and I disagree with the false dichotomy that Adventism imposes on the law, with the ten commandments as the line of demarcation between "moral" and "ceremonial" obligations. I have no problem with it if people want to observe a modified or evolved or "blossomed" Sabbath. If they find it spiritually beneficial, I wouldn't want to take that away from them. I just don't believe that seventh-day Sabbath observance is a universal, eternally binding moral requirement.

Back to the OP, I don't believe that there is any evidence that the weekly Sabbath was established as a commandment for humans at creation. I also don't see why there would have been a need for the Sabbath before sin if humans were in perfect communion with God already.

My personal experience during the past few years has been that the ritual of observing the seventh-day Sabbath from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday, along with all of the different expectations that people attach to it, became a huge burden to me. I'm sure that being a pastor's wife and serving in several very conservative Adventist congregations had something to do with my feeling on that, especially after having been raised in a not very traditional Adventist environment.

Still, I held onto my beliefs on the Sabbath for as long as possible, even after hubby decided to resign from the ministry, although I disagreed with the Adventist view of the law, because I viewed the Sabbath as important to my spiritual experience. I liked the positive aspects of it--spending extra time worshiping God and praying and studying, fellowshiping with family and friends, taking a break from a lot of my mundane household chores.

What I have come to understand, though, is that while those things are important, they are not dependent on the seventh-day Sabbath. The meanings and principles and blessings of the Sabbath that Adventists rightly point to can be experienced on the Sabbath or Sunday or any other day. They are not tied to one day of the week. Although I regularly attend church on Sunday now, I do not view it as a holy day or as a replacement for the seventh-day Sabbath.

Also, I actually liked going to church on Saturday better than I like going to church on Sunday--probably because that's what I was accustomed to. I suppose I'm a creature of habit. However, the Sabbath issue was pretty much the last straw for me in deciding whether or not to leave the Adventist Church. No church is perfect, and I can't say that I completely agree with any other denomination either, but I didn't feel comfortable continuing to call myself an Adventist while disagreeing with that fundamental Adventist belief. So I go to church on Sunday now just because that's when most other churches meet.

 

[Avonia]

Sophia, I appreciate your post.

 

[AzA]

One thing I did discover a few years ago is the power of fasting. I was taught how to fast by a woman with great knowledge on the issue - and how to do it so it's not a shock to the body. What I've discovered is that this produces a clarity that's really wonderful. Again, I don't know if that would be true for everyone - some people may just get hungry. But I do, so clearly, remember how much I disliked those Sabbath fasts as a child.

That's interesting. I don't think I was "taught" by anyone, but my mother did occasionally do fasting with the older ladies in Women's Ministries when I was much younger and sometimes I would be hanging around with her. It wasn't a painful experience but I was mostly unimpressed because of the prayer part, not because of the fasting part.
When I got a bit older, I also discovered the fasting clarity thing you mentioned. It was both about "clarity" and about "clearing." Not physical clearing, lol... but other kinds of clearing.
Then I got into the custom of fasting on mornings I was going to church.
I agree that everyone is different on this. Have a great friend -- Buddhist practitioner -- who has a rough time with fasting. Perhaps a great gift that any spiritual tradition can give a person is teaching them how to love, learn about, and listen to their body. Given all our many hang-ups around food, touch, sex, and clothing, one wonders how much we really know or love the bodies we have. And that in turn may be a downstream domino of our ideas about the physical/material world.

I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

Was this Q only for Sophia or are you taking comments from anybody?

 

[Sophia7]

Sophia, I appreciate your post.

Thank you.

 

[Sophia7]

Was this Q only for Sophia or are you taking comments from anybody?

I can't speak for Avonia, but I'm certainly interested in hearing others' responses to that question if they would like to share.

 

[Avonia]

I can't speak for Avonia, but I'm certainly interested in hearing others' responses to that question if they would like to share.

Absolutely.

 

[JonMiller]

We talk about perfection an end point. This is a source of confusion. If there was an end point of perfection we reached upon arrival in Heaven, it would be intolerable.

Creation is an unfolding.

What do you mean by that?

If you would ask physicists whether they think that we will end up knowing all physical laws/etc at some point, some would say yes and others would say no.

I, personally, would say no... because I don't think the human mind can conceive of everything. Besides the fact that numerous things seem to be outside the realm of what we can do experiments on.

JM

 

[Avonia]

What do you mean by that?

Contrast is essential to creation. Cycles of death and rebirth are intrinsic to creation. We often describe an endpoint of perfection - heaven - devoid of creative properties.

I suspect if you drop a rock on your foot in "heaven" it's going to hurt. And there will be many things we will "learn the hard way." We will come up short and evolve through trial and error. And some will make a royal mess - just as they do here. And have to clean it up.

That doesn't mean there can not be a movement toward greater symmetry.

 

[AzA]

I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

What's your experience been?

Experiences, qualities, rituals, meanings... Let's see.

I check out of my usual professional work, and check in with my natural and chosen family. My people are scattered in lots of places and it can be especially nice to reconnect with them when they're not all spinning around like tops.

Friday nights unless I have something going on with others, I might light some candles and do some quiet meditation. Will often soak my footsies and read. And also often ground by playing around with my bass guitar. Talk to my mother.

Saturdays may or may not involve church or other collective rituals; this depends on where I am. I don't watch TV much normally, and watch even less on Saturdays mostly because I don't have cable and what I would want to watch (nature stuff) I don't have easy access to. I might do a shift at a local charity I like to work with. Was recently in another city and it was the nicest thing to walk around a local market and talk with the vendors there. I had some really cool conversations with some of those people... they taught me some stuff, I taught them some stuff. I will also probably draw or write; space for both is beginning to show up on Sabbath these days. And more music. If I can get out into grass, I will. If not, I'll go in my head. Take a nap. Call some more of my folks.

This is all sacred for me. It's a recharge and a connecting on as many levels of my person as is appropriate. The elements could happen on any day of the week and often do.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Now to the OP - sort of. Sophia, as you have noticed, I rarely participate in the Sabbath OPs. However, I'm curious what experiences, or qualities, or rituals, or meanings you still have for Sabbath? I ask the question because even if I went to church on Sunday, I would still equally value Sabbath.

Said more simply, I think Sabbath has blossomed since the time of the COI because of the meanings, rituals, practices and sacred traditions that have developed since then - having nothing to do with Saturday vs. Sunday. And equally accessible to those who don't view Saturday as the "correct day of worship."

What's your experience been?

I know that I'm not Sophia, but found the question fascinating nonetheless. Hope you won't mind my intrusion.

From my perspective, a day of rest can actually be a good and even necessary thing. However, I don't sense the need for rest to occur the same day every week. Further, I don't confuse a day of rest with the only permissible day for worship. Both rest and worship can (and should) occur throughout the week.

There are a few sabbath traditions that my family started that I still enjoy. None of them are Biblically-mandated and all are based solely on personal preference. I would hardly impose such practices on anyone else.

AZA: I check out of my usual professional work, and check in with my natural and chosen family. My people are scattered in lots of places and it can be especially nice to reconnect with them when they're not all spinning around like tops.

Friday nights unless I have something going on with others, I might light some candles and do some quiet meditation. Will often soak my footsies and read. And also often ground by playing around with my bass guitar. Talk to my mother.

Saturdays may or may not involve church or other collective rituals; this depends on where I am. I don't watch TV much normally, and watch even less on Saturdays mostly because I don't have cable and what I would want to watch (nature stuff) I don't have easy access to. I might do a shift at a local charity I like to work with. Was recently in another city and it was the nicest thing to walk around a local market and talk with the vendors there. I had some really cool conversations with some of those people... they taught me some stuff, I taught them some stuff. I will also probably draw or write; space for both is beginning to show up on Sabbath these days. And more music. If I can get out into grass, I will. If not, I'll go in my head. Take a nap. Call some more of my folks.

This is all sacred for me. It's a recharge and a connecting on as many levels of my person as is appropriate. The elements could happen on any day of the week and often do.

I could hardly find fault with that.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

I know that I'm not Sophia, but found the question fascinating nonetheless. Hope you won't mind my intrusion.

Thanks for the contribution.

 

[dragNdrop]

Was the sabbath made before sin ? Does Gen 2:1-3 give us a clear picture on this ?
Why is this matter subjected to symantics and technicalities ?

Let's take an honest loook at Gen 2:1-3.

 

[NaLuvena]

The latest arguments from my SDA friend, made me see that the Sabbat was indeed set before Creation.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]“[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And on the seventh [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]eventh day from all his [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]work which he had made.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]3[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]blessed[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] the [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]seventh day, and [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]sanctified[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] it:[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] because [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” Gen 2:1-3[/FONT]

“For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea,
and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” Exod 20:11

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]There are two ways of interpreting the above passages[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God rested on a seventh day after six days of creation. Afterwards He declared all [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]the future Saturdays as holy.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Now since the Sabbath was made before sin it cannot fallout due to the Cross. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]How [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]can the Cross replace an institution made before there was sin ? How can it replace [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]an institution that has nothing to do with humanity's depravity or sin ? [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God by laying that first Saturday aside for his rest, was sanctifying that first [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Saturday. ([/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Remember that to sanctify something is to set it apart for God's use.)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]This understanding does not demand that we believe that God was declaring all [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Saturdays holy before Moses came.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As for the view that God just blessed the first Saturday and not all Saturdays my friend asked a very real question[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]: Was God tired that he should need rest on a seventh day ?. Was not God doing this for our example ? I NOTICED THAT NON OF US COULD CHALLENGE MY FRIENDS 'ARGUMENTS.
[/FONT]
Now this opens a new dimension of thought in this debate. If God set a Sabbath before sin or the Fall then the Cross which is a sin solution has nothing to do ith it's sanctity.

Fascinating thread!!!!

I am a non SDA christian, who recently decided to start keeping the Sabbath (Friday evening to Saturday evening). I got to this point from reading the Bible and praying, about this, as I wanted to follow God, wherever He led me.

The "Sabbath command" begins with the word "Remember" (Exodus 20:8), which is used because God is calling the Israelites to remember or recall an event that happened before that time.

Also in Exodus 16, Moses tells the leaders of the Israelites that the 7th day of gathering manna was "a sabbath day" - A Sabbath day, indicative of it being one of many.

I believe that God did this because he had finished creating the world and rested, signifying the end of His creation work, and instituted the Sabbath as a sign that the world and all that is in it, was created by Him.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Fascinating thread!!!!

I am a non SDA christian, who recently decided to start keeping the Sabbath (Friday evening to Saturday evening). I got to this point from reading the Bible and praying, about this, as I wanted to follow God, wherever He led me.

I am glad that the sabbath is a blessing for you.

The "Sabbath command" begins with the word "Remember" (Exodus 20:8), which is used because God is calling the Israelites to remember or recall an event that happened before that time.

Not necessarily. "Remember" can refer to a command I received today and not merely a command I received yesterday. However, in the case of the sabbath, the use of "remember" as found in Exodus 20 relates to a command given by God in Exodus 16 (as you've noted below).

Also in Exodus 16, Moses tells the leaders of the Israelites that the 7th day of gathering manna was "a sabbath day" - A Sabbath day, indicative of it being one of many. I believe that God did this because he had finished creating the world and rested, signifying the end of His creation work, and instituted the Sabbath as a sign that the world and all that is in it, was created by Him.

Do you view the seventh-day sabbath as being:

(1) A memorial of creation;
(2) A memorial of the exodus from Egypt;
(3) A shadow that pointed to Jesus Christ; or
(4) All of the above?
​

BFA

P.S. DND has asked us to study "the sabbath" as described in Gen 2:1-3, but he has failed to show us where the sabbath is even mentioned in Gen. 2:1-3.

 

[dragNdrop]

The main battle of the ideas is in the interpretation of Exod 20:11 and Gen2:2-3.

Some believe that these passages mean that after God created for six days , he rested on the seventh and thus blessed all future Saturdays.

Some believe that these chapters merely tell us how the first Saturday, not all saturday became blessed.

In such cases we have to stop and analyse to see which of the two views stand the bible test.

 

[NaLuvena]

I am glad that the sabbath is a blessing for you.

Thanks...it is.

Not necessarily. "Remember" can refer to a command I received today and not merely a command I received yesterday. However, in the case of the sabbath, the use of "remember" as found in Exodus 20 relates to a command given by God in Exodus 16 (as you've noted below).

So you're saying that the Sabbath only started from Exodus 16?

Funnily enough, the commandment ties the Sabbath to the rest in the creation week, which is found in Genesis 2.

Do you view the seventh-day sabbath as being:

(1) A memorial of creation;
(2) A memorial of the exodus from Egypt;
(3) A shadow that pointed to Jesus Christ; or
(4) All of the above?
​

BFA

(4) All of the above.

P.S. DND has asked us to study "the sabbath" as described in Gen 2:1-3, but he has failed to show us where the sabbath is even mentioned in Gen. 2:1-3.

I think he means the seventh day that God rested.