Originally posted by DaveKerwin
He loves on us and asks for our love back.
I agree that God loves Christians, but where we seem to differ is that I don't believe love (that's biblical love, not the feeling of love) is given to all man, at least not in the form of salvitic grace. And just for the record, I don't believe it has anything to do with what man does first. I also am not familiar with where the Bible tells us that God asks for anything, much less our love. We are commanded to keep God's commandments, which includes "love the Lord with all your heart and soul and mind. Could you please share with me where you read that God "asks" us to love Him?
Only in our choosing him do we show we truely love him. If God made us robots, he could have made us love him, but it would not be real love. What saved me was neither him knocking or me opening the door. Neither the offer of grace or the acceptance of it. It is multifaceted as far as I can see it. The offer was always on the table, but I accepted. It takes two to tango. It was the offer and the acceptance together, I think.
So, you do believe that until you "accepted," God's will could not be made manifest in your life? What I'm asking is, if you believe it was God's Will that you be saved, and you had the capability to "deny" or "reject" God, then essentially, you had the ability to stop the Will of God. Doesn't that sound like you're saying that your will for your life is more powerful than God's Will for your life?
If I pray for a dodge viper srt10, he is likely not to make one magically appear in my driveway. If I pray for humility and a servant's heart, he is most likely to respond. If I do not pray for a servant's heart, I may not ever be much of a servant (not that this is some magical prayer of jabez type of formula, this is just an example.) I also believe that God will withhold certain things from us based on what we decide to do.
Hmmm...do you think God is responding to your prayer? You don't think that God's Plan was complete when it was sovereignly put into place? For example, let's say it is God's Will that you learn compassion. How would He bring this about? I would think the best way to do it is put you in a position where you needed compassion, thereby teaching you how to give it. His plan had included these measures from the get go. Do you believe, in that case, if you instead prayed for the ability to evangelize God would instead give you your desire? It really, really, seems like you keep implying that the Will of the Father is subject to your will. Do you even see that coming across like that?
God does not sit around and twiddle his thumbs. See the above explanation.
That's exactly what it seems like you are saying. You said God's "offer was always on the table." His offer, however, did not make your salvation manifest, right? It was not until you accepted that you were doing the tango, right? According to you, your salvation was not made manifest until you accepted, right?
I had no faith until he saved me, and faith was not in us when we were born. So far so good. I think God matures the faith we give him. If we give him just a mustard seed, he will accept it and make it grow.
This whole paragraph is contradictory. You say you had no faith until He saved you and there was no faith in you when you were born, but you have said that the reason you are saved is because you put you faith in Him. Even here you say "God matures the faith we give Him." I don't get it. You just said we had no faith to give Him. Where did the faith come from that you put in Him to be saved?
Do you think we are unable to present any faith at all ??
When? Before or after we're saved?
When I said that, I meant this : The grace of God (forgiveness of sins) comes at the moment we believe. Before we accept Christ, we are unforgiven. If we are unforgiven, we have not grace.
If you have no grace what was it that even enabled you to repent and believe in the first place? Do you believe it is part of the makeup of fallen man to be able to commit the righteous action of putting faith (which you said isn't there until after we're saved) in Christ?
I have not seen this statement true in scripture. Do you have a verse to show two different types of grace ?
Well, there's plenty of verses that show this. The most apparent being the one I posted in post number 40:
Matthew 5:45
He makes His sun rise <B>on the evil and on the good</B>, and sends rain <B>on the just and on the unjust</B>.
Obviously God's salvitic grace is not bestowed upon those that He chooses to leave in their fallen state. It is His salvitic grace that enables man to become a believer. Even most of fallen man are not as bad as they could be. We're not all Jeffrey Dahlmers. It is God's grace that keeps man, saved and unsaved, from being as depraved as he possibly could be.
What are you trying to prove with this ? The holy spirit is in us, yes, he indwells us. Yes, we love knowing God's love for us. The bible also says that he who has been forgiven much, loves much. I can say for myself that when I recognize how God has loved me, and how he has forgiven me, I love him so much more.
Again, "love" in the Bible is an action word. It is not a feeling. When the Bible says "God loves us" it means He does something for us, something we need. That thing we need is salvation. He does not extend that love to all men. The fact that you know God's love for you and can return that love by keeping His commandments is purely by His grace. Also, he who has not been forgiven can not love. Love is not in him.
I don't see it necessarily as an action.
Uhhh...why not?
What do you see Romans 10: 9-10 to say ??
Do you know what confess means? It means agree. "Believing" in your heart (seat of reason, inner man, intellect) and confessing (agreeing) with your mouth that Jesus is your Savior are fruits of
being saved, not the means by which we attain our salvation. There are only about a trillion verses
(exaggeration) that state that if our actions, i.e., believing, confession, are the means or method by which we are saved then we have something to boast about. I believe that is what most do. They boast that they have made the right decision.
I quoted it because it says we are saved through faith. And you seem to disagree with that notion.
On the contrary, that is exactly what I believe. I just believe that faith unto salvation is something that God gives us. As a matter of fact, you seem to believe that too. You have said that you "had no faith until He saved you" and "faith was not in us when we were born."
But it's right there in Ephesians. I see verse 5 to say that God saved us while we were yet sinners and while we were dead because of our transgressions. We have always been unable to not sin, and always unable to save ourselves. God has united us with Christ because we are unable to save ourselves. What else can it be saying ?
Nothing. That is exactly what it is saying.
I do not believe I loved God before he saved me.
Yet you believe you put all your trust, faith, belief and effort into serving Him? Strange. Why, if you did not love Him before He saved you, did you strive to please Him by dedicating your life to Him?
What made you and I choose him was the reality of our sin.
No. When we were fallen we loved our flesh. We loved our sin. What made us turn from that is purely His grace.
The difference between us and non believers is that we know of God's love and decided to love him back.
We know of God's love because we are the recipient of God's love. And, we received it
before we gave it back.
There are many people who you know that are unaware of the love of Christ, and would love God back if they only knew. Same for me.
Dave, Dave, Dave. You still think that God's Will is so tenuous that the thing standing in the way is that someone doesn't know of His love? How did God ever accomplish anything in our lives before we "decided" to help Him out?
Okay brother, there it is. Try and research what I've said. I'll do the same for what you've posted.
God bless
Hi Ben!
