Do Good People Go To Hell?

I understand where you are coming from BUT do not agree with your comment; look closer at what these verses are saying. As I commented earlier God is not calling all men now that is why people are not coming to Christ. You cannot come unless God draws and if He is not drawing you have no freewill of your own to come.

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I must disagree with you here, God is calling all men now.as I quoted Jesus says "and the Spirit will convict the world of sin righteousness and Judgement......." and also "and I when I am lifeted up will draw all me to myself," God is calling all men unto himself scriptures it seems are plain on this that Gods Spirit does strive with all men, but there will come a time when He will not.
I agree that you cannot come unless God draws, but I see the scriptures to teach that God is drawing all men, not that He only draws some now and the rest later, we know that acts talks about Steven and what he said to the council who were trying him "you stiffnecked and uncircumcized in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit, as did your fathers......" how could they resist the Spirit if He was not calling to them? What is there to resist?


Mark

MarkEvan said:

I must disagree with you here, God is calling all men now.as I quoted Jesus says "and the Spirit will convict the world of sin righteousness and Judgement......." and also "and I when I am lifeted up will draw all me to myself," God is calling all men unto himself scriptures it seems are plain on this that Gods Spirit does strive with all men, but there will come a time when He will not.
I agree that you cannot come unless God draws, but I see the scriptures to teach that God is drawing all men, not that He only draws some now and the rest later, we know that acts talks about Steven and what he said to the council who were trying him "you stiffnecked and uncircumcized in heart and ears, you do always resist the Holy Spirit, as did your fathers......" how could they resist the Spirit if He was not calling to them? What is there to resist?


Mark

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Steven was speaking to the Jews and I agree this fits a lot of people. BUT there are a lot of reasons why people are not coming to God and I agree there are stiff necked and uncircumcised believers that are so religious and hard headed they cannot see beyond their doctrines; but does that include all of the lost; I do not think so. There are billions of people who are bound by communism, Buddhism and let us not forget Muslins and drugs, and sin or what ever bondage that are not in a place where they can hear the gospel let alone receive. It is God’s timing not ours.
The ultimate victory of the purpose is also clear. "For as in Adam all die, even so in the Christ shall all be made alive." [1 Corinthians 15:22].

"In Adam....in the Christ." Briefly note this little word "in" coming from the Greek word "en" which can equally be translated three different ways-- IN, WITH, BY. Thus we could rightly say, BY ADAM death passed upon all men, and BY CHRIST shall all men be made alive. All the negativity that has unfolded because of the transgression of Adam, shall ultimately be dealt with, and swallowed up into life because of the righteousness of the Christ.

Some men seek to qualify this with their various arguments, but as relative to this particular verse, the coverage is such, that at best one could only argue that only those who are outside of the touch of the sin of Adam would also be exempt from the salvation of Christ. For any part of the creation which felt the sting of death via Adam, must now also enjoy the salvation of the life of Jesus Christ our Lord. The "alls" are inclusive of both realms. "But where sin abounded, grace did MUCH MORE abound: that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto age-abiding life by Jesus Christ our Lord." [Romans 5:20-21].

With the ultimate victory secure, then the next thing which needs to be understood is Paul's clarifying statement, "BUT every man in his own order." [1 Corinthians 15:23]. That ALL shall enjoy the life of Christ is wonderful. The Word is true, and fulfillment shall be realized. But how much confusion and frustration is removed when we understand that they come "every man in his own order." GOD IS A GOD OF ORDER, harmony and balance, with a plan and purpose which is unfolding by degrees and executed by His grace to bring every order, rank of men, into salvation according to the cycles of time which He has measured out for this purpose.

God had a savior before He had a sinner; for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth.

I think I'm getting confused on what you're trying to advocate for... it sounded like universalism, but now I am wondering if it's more of a post apocalyptic redemption plan...

I wonder if you could lay out for me, in order, who you believe gets saved ultimately and when?

Good people? All of human righteousness is like filthy rags in the sight of God. We are all stained with our own putrid sin, which can only be purged by the blood of Christ, whom God sent for us even though we deserved nothing. That's God's love.

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On the contrary, we are God's special creation, whom He loves and treasures passionately. He regards us as we regard our children. Our slightest efforts in the right direction fill Him with delight.

All sinners, thus all humans except the incarnate Christ, deserve infinite punishment.

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Given God cares for us as His children, punishment is be corrective. Eternal punishment is not corrective. It is sadistic.

To add to what others say, no man can do good apart from God,

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Observation of the world shows this to be not the case. Much good is done by those who know nothing of God/

FaithHopeAndLove said:

On the contrary, we are God's special creation, whom He loves and treasures passionately. He regards us as we regard our children. Our slightest efforts in the right direction fill Him with delight.



Given God cares for us as His children, punishment is be corrective. Eternal punishment is not corrective. It is sadistic.



Observation of the world shows this to be not the case. Much good is done by those who know nothing of God/

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Can you back any of this up with Scripture?

MezzaMorta said:

I would have to say no, i think life is more about what we do, rather than what we belive. Simply haveing faith is not what makes us good people, it is that we justify that faith though good works which help others. If someone helps others, even though they don't have Christ i belive that they fufilled the ends of the means which is religion, thus God will look faviourbly towards them. As he said the law is writen in all of our hearts, so even those who do not know God and Christ can abide by it.

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"Why callest 'them' good? there is none good but one, that is, God. If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" ...the 'notion' that we are 'good' cannot be verified by scripture, as it is written, "There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." which is why Jesus said, "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

jad123 said:

Can you back any of this up with Scripture?

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yes

Do good people go to hell?

Yes, if anyone has rejected Christ or has backslide, they will go to hell. They send themselves there.
The bible tells us that only Jesus Christ can cleanse us from sin. No one can cleanse themselves. Job 9:30-31, Pr 20:9, Jer 2:22.

Hell is prepared for Satan and his angels, but if the sinners and the ungodly take his mark, they will be cast into the lake of fire (hell) and will be tormented by fire with no rest day or night.

No matter how good a person is, if they have not been borned again, they can't enter in heaven. There are alot of good people here on earth, who are more willing to help in a time of need rather than a person claiming to be a Christian.

FaithHopeAndLove said:

Eternal punishment is not corrective. It is sadistic.

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"no rest day and night forever and ever."
Eternal punishment is the case. It can't be reasoned away by philosophy.

PillsburyDoughboy said:

I think that there is no way that God can be so cruel as to send good people to hell. Isn't doing good deeds doing God's work, and also those who do God's work, if they have never excepted God in there hearts are they realy going to hell? And what about tribes and other countrys that never herd of God. Just because they never herd of God is God realy going to send them to hell? Not only that, but what about native americans? Are they realy worshiping the wrong God? They worship the great spirit in the sky. Wouldn't that be the same thing? They were just never eduacated on God in those days. They worshiped what they believed to be a great spirit in the sky that created all life. Just because they didn't know the whole story did they go to hell? That is awful to think God would do that. It's the same with others that don't know the facts about God but worship him the way they think is right.

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Hi PD.

The thing about this is that by the time Christ returns, everyone will have heard the Gospel. The book of Revelation makes that perfectly clear. God said that it is not His desire for anyone to perish, but for all to come to repentance. John 3:3 says unles one is born again, he/she will in no way enter the kingdom of heaven. Regardless of how good of person you are and the good things you did, personal repentance and accepting Jesus Christ as you Lord and Savor is what is required to be righteous in God's eyes. Both Jesus and John the Baptist taught that in the book of Matthew.

God loves us. We all know that. And that's why He gives us time to repent and come to Him ONLY through Jesus Christ. The bible says there is no name under heaven by which we must be saved. Any other way is wrong and is called a doctrine of demons (that means trying to be good and 'righteous' without Christ). There are many doctrines all over the world that teach this and I strongly encourage every christian to not even adhere to them and seek to do the same for others. They come in many forms, such as the ones the OP has mentioned.

Also, when you have some time, read Ephesians 5:5-7. Those particular verses are for those who think being that a good person is enough to go to heaven.

PD said:

And what about the great Steve Irwin, aka The Crocodile Hunter, he did God's work every day. He made his living saving God's creations and education people about them so that would understand them and grow to love them as much as he loves them. He peobaly saved several species from extinction not to mention all the animals lives he had saved. I don't know if he was a religious man but if he wasn't did he go to hell? Did God send to hell one of the greates animla rights activist? Did God send to hell the man that saved the lives of thousands, maybe millions of his precious creations? I don't think so.

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Always remember, God looks at motives more so than methods. What we think is good may not be what God thinks is good. And that's what makes the difference. As far as The Crocodile Hunter goes, I don't think anyone knows where he's going to spend eternity, as that has nothing to do with any of us. Therefore, don't worry about it. Never base christianity and God's goodness on other people's lives and leave that as absolute. Find out how good God is for yourself.

Finally, it is dangerous to place our opinions/viewpoints above God's rule and principles. They stand forever and are no respector of persons.

Hope this helps.

Now what do you mean by this? Everyone on earth after the apocalypse will be saved... but do you mean to say that this applies to every human, even those who live now?

Ben12 said:

Acts 15:16

After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18
19 Acts 15: 16 (NAS)
'AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,
17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,'​

Acts 15: 16 (HCSB)
After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,
17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,says the Lord who does these things,
18 which have been known from long ago.​

Acts 15 16 (NIRV)
" 'After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent.
I will rebuild what was destroyed. I will make it what it used to be.
17 Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.'​

​

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Matthew 5: 13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.


12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'[b]
18that have been known for ages.[c]
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

Why worry about how difficult it is for the gentiles to turn to God if all will be saved anyways?

residue, from the strong's:

1) left remaining

or remnant.

Sorry last few days I have been working. Did I say something or did I quote scripture?

Webster: apoc·a·lypse
Middle English, revelation, Revelation, from Anglo-French apocalipse, from Late Latin apocalypsis, from Greek apokalypsis, from apokalyptein to uncover, from apo- + kalyptein to cover. I prefer the Greek

Obviously my approach to scripture is totally different then yours; I do not literalize the Book of Revelations for a few reasons. First reason John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day; no where does it say that what was written down in Revelations is literal; but it does give us a key on how we should approach this deep and awesome and spiritual book of the Bible.

The Bible is full of mysteries (mystery in the Greek language means a sacred secret and used 27 times in NT); The Bible pages are full hidden spiritual mysteries especially when you consider parables types and shadows, patterns not even including the culture and language barriers. The Bible is the blue print of truth; the Holy Spirit within us is the engineer or architect who is the only source of interpreting it.

Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context. Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without. NOTICE THE VERY FIRST VERSE……………………




This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

I truly believe God’s Word is hidden for many reasons; that is why there are so many creed, religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library. When I see a symbol and apply to Revelations it needs to be used over and over again thought out the Bible; the lampstand is one small example: What an important symbol and I believe it has much to do with Isaiah 11:2 and the seven spirits of God that God has ordained to give us understanding.


The lamp stand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thoughts; I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna and this is especially true in this book.

Lampstand

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. It takes heat and fire to purify many different precious metals; gold (Devine life); silver (redemption); brass (judgment); iron (will) and many other precious stones that are found in our earth; One Biblical exception is a pearl; the only jewel that comes from life.


The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God. Isaiah 11:2. Fire comes from the Greek word “pur” which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and purgatory and is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit.

Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp either; for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the Day of Atonement.

Any of these symbolisms I mentioned above and many more are pregnant with hundreds of scriptures that when you put them together show us not what we are saying about a thing; but what God’s Word is saying to those who have ears.

Christians who love truth and are not afraid to seek, ask and knock beyond the traditions of man really need to look on a basic dogma of religion “hell”. Religion today is no different then the Jews in Jesus day; where all that matters to them are their traditions. There are so many loop holes for example most new translations do not even put the word hell in their Bibles.

We say we look at truth as Christians; but in reality we are looking at it so often though someone else’s understanding and ignoring what the Bible truly has to say. If there is a hell then how God can be a God of love, peace, joy, longsuffering. Why there are so many verses that declare God will save all; redeem all, reconcile, deliver all. What is greater the blood of Jesus or the sin of Adam.

PillsburyDoughboy said:

I think that there is no way that God can be so cruel as to send good people to hell. Isn't doing good deeds doing God's work, and also those who do God's work, if they have never excepted God in there hearts are they realy going to hell? And what about tribes and other countrys that never herd of God. Just because they never herd of God is God realy going to send them to hell? Not only that, but what about native americans? Are they realy worshiping the wrong God? They worship the great spirit in the sky. Wouldn't that be the same thing? They were just never eduacated on God in those days. They worshiped what they believed to be a great spirit in the sky that created all life. Just because they didn't know the whole story did they go to hell? That is awful to think God would do that. It's the same with others that don't know the facts about God but worship him the way they think is right.

And what about the great Steve Irwin, aka The Crocodile Hunter, he did God's work every day. He made his living saving God's creations and education people about them so that would understand them and grow to love them as much as he loves them. He peobaly saved several species from extinction not to mention all the animals lives he had saved. I don't know if he was a religious man but if he wasn't did he go to hell? Did God send to hell one of the greates animla rights activist? Did God send to hell the man that saved the lives of thousands, maybe millions of his precious creations? I don't think so.

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Ben, it seems to me that you're viewing "GOODNESS" in your own eyes instead of what GOD views as "GOODNESS".

How does one contend that a person is "good" when they reject His only Son that DIED to save them???
How is someone GOOD when they spit on His commands and refuse to obey Him?

Are people actually "GOOD" who live their lives according to their own will and beliefs while denying Jesus Christ?
Ignoring Him all their lives? Refusing to glorify Him or thank Him?

I think you're viewing humanity in HUMAN TERMS rather than by God's holy standards.
How is SIN supposed to enter a perfect heaven and not permeate all souls again???
Do you actually think that some sin is OK in God's book to enter heaven and eternally exist if God is supposed to wipe out all sin so it stops its inevitable fruition of death, rebellion and destruction of souls?

Actually if Hell doesn't exist, then God becomes a liar and death never ends - neither does evil!
I think you should stick to scripture and stop leaning on your own flawed human understanding.

"every way seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction". God WARNS US repeatedly in that Bible to Believe, repent, and obey - that there is only one way to God, along with the vivid and harsh consequences of not doing so.

The only people being sent to hell are those who refuse submission to the SON OF GOD who came to ransom them from that very fate.

GOD DEFINES WHAT/WHO IS GOOD - NOT US.

Nadiine said:

Ben, it seems to me that you're viewing "GOODNESS" in your own eyes instead of what GOD views as "GOODNESS".

How does one contend that a person is "good" when they reject His only Son that DIED to save them???
How is someone GOOD when they spit on His commands and refuse to obey Him?

Are people actually "GOOD" who live their lives according to their own will and beliefs while denying Jesus Christ?
Ignoring Him all their lives? Refusing to glorify Him or thank Him?

I think you're viewing humanity in HUMAN TERMS rather than by God's holy standards.
How is SIN supposed to enter a perfect heaven and not permeate all souls again???
Do you actually think that some sin is OK in God's book to enter heaven and eternally exist if God is supposed to wipe out all sin so it stops its inevitable fruition of death, rebellion and destruction of souls?

Actually if Hell doesn't exist, then God becomes a liar and death never ends - neither does evil!
I think you should stick to scripture and stop leaning on your own flawed human understanding.

"every way seems right to a man, but the end thereof is destruction". God WARNS US repeatedly in that Bible to Believe, repent, and obey - that there is only one way to God, along with the vivid and harsh consequences of not doing so.

The only people being sent to hell are those who refuse submission to the SON OF GOD who came to ransom them from that very fate.

GOD DEFINES WHAT/WHO IS GOOD - NOT US.

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I think what I am viewing is not what I see in goodness or what you see in goodness and especially in the so called goodness of a religion; but what the scriptures declare is God’s goodness. There is no goodness in eternal hell and torment, there is no love, no hope; etc. In other words there is NO GOOD NEWS.

Besides we are all unrightous; but Jesus paid that price on Calvary; we have no freewill to choose God; He chooses us (more religious dogma to add to the confusion).

I believe you are viewing God’s Word’s by what you have been taught; not what it is actually saying. We cannot have it both ways eternal hell and torment; or all will be made alive in Christ.

I repeat again what God’s Word declares. "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age ( which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.


Religion is the liar not God; Hell is a religious term and cannot be found in the original language of scripture; it has been so misused, so mistranslated so abused. God will punish (prune) the wicked in the Lake of Fire but the eternally. Death will end; because God will be victorious because of Jesus blood will annihilate sin; but not the people.

They cannot come to Jesus because God has not drawn them; each in "their own order" is God’s plan; not mine or yours.

Ben12 said:

I think what I am viewing is not what I see in goodness or what you see in goodness and especially in the so called goodness of a religion; but what the scriptures declare is God’s goodness. There is no goodness in eternal hell and torment, there is no love, no hope; etc. In other words there is NO GOOD NEWS.

Besides we are all unrightous; but Jesus paid that price on Calvary; we have no freewill to choose God; He chooses us (more religious dogma to add to the confusion).

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I have to wonder what "you must be born again" means then??? The Bible is crystal clear that we have a duty to directly BELIEVE, OPENLY CONFESS, REPENT, and OBEY God upon that genuine inward conversion.
That our lives will start to conform to Christ upon conversion; we change.
Doing good deeds isn't truly goodness, since you have no clue what the MOTIVE behind the charity is in each person. For all you know, they did it to gain recognition for themselves, or needed tax write off's to save from higher tax penalties.
God knows motive.
There are degrees of heaven as there are hell (God is just and fair). "GOOD" people won't be nearly as uncomfortable in hades as horrific evil people.
God can repay deeds in both places - just as people won't have nearly as many good things in heaven as others will who served or obeyed more than another. Why do we seem to think God will repay everyone the same? Some will get alot, some will get next to nothing... etc.

Also, why does the Bible tell us that the road & gates to destruction are WIDE and BROAD and only the FEW find eternal life with God if when He died for sin, He covered EVERYBODY??? What a false verse and concept if Jesus' death just covered everybody equally to get them all into heaven.

I keep seeing people injecting their own personal will into God's words - it's not OUR laws people break, but God's. HIS holy standard is what matters, not what we think holiness is or should be.

GOD is the judge of what is good & right and what salvation is. Again, scripture is crystal clear that only the FEW enter God's rest. Jesus' payment on the cross didn't cover everyone's sins that didn't recieve that payment.
You have to RECIEVE a gift in order to posess it. Someone providing something for you doesn't mean you have it.

If my parents PAY for my college education, but I don't bother to show up or do the work, it doesn't give me a degree. I rejected their payment and the gift was lost.
PEOPLE MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO ENTER GOD'S ETERNAL LIFE He provided for them. Without it, we are DEAD in our sins and must pay for them on our own.
Sin MUST be paid for and done away with; if not by God, then by us - and life is the payment.

opps

Nadiine said:

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I have to wonder what "you must be born again" means then??? The Bible is crystal clear that we have a duty to directly BELIEVE, OPENLY CONFESS, REPENT, and OBEY God upon that genuine inward conversion.
That our lives will start to conform to Christ upon conversion; we change.
Doing good deeds isn't truly goodness, since you have no clue what the MOTIVE behind the charity is in each person. For all you know, they did it to gain recognition for themselves, or needed tax write off's to save from higher tax penalties.
God knows motive.
There are degrees of heaven as there are hell (God is just and fair). "GOOD" people won't be nearly as uncomfortable in hades as horrific evil people.
God can repay deeds in both places - just as people won't have nearly as many good things in heaven as others will who served or obeyed more than another. Why do we seem to think God will repay everyone the same? Some will get alot, some will get next to nothing... etc.

Also, why does the Bible tell us that the road & gates to destruction are WIDE and BROAD and only the FEW find eternal life with God if when He died for sin, He covered EVERYBODY??? What a false verse and concept if Jesus' death just covered everybody equally to get them all into heaven.

I keep seeing people injecting their own personal will into God's words - it's not OUR laws people break, but God's. HIS holy standard is what matters, not what we think holiness is or should be.

GOD is the judge of what is good & right and what salvation is. Again, scripture is crystal clear that only the FEW enter God's rest. Jesus' payment on the cross didn't cover everyone's sins that didn't recieve that payment.
You have to RECIEVE a gift in order to posess it. Someone providing something for you doesn't mean you have it.

If my parents PAY for my college education, but I don't bother to show up or do the work, it doesn't give me a degree. I rejected their payment and the gift was lost.
PEOPLE MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO ENTER GOD'S ETERNAL LIFE He provided for them. Without it, we are DEAD in our sins and must pay for them on our own.
Sin MUST be paid for and done away with; if not by God, then by us - and life is the payment.

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I agree you must be born again, confesses Jesus as your savior etc; But what I do not agree on is the billion upon billion will go to hell because cannot receive Christ until God has call them by His grace. You loose me with all this eternal hell garbage that is where the corrupt doctrines of religion and translations come in.

I not believe the vast majority of those who declare they are born are born again; again are only justified by faith; they have been told by their religious system they are born again; but only have a basic salvation experience much like the thief on the cross. God’s people do not hear or see what God is saying.





They are like the Children of Israel and know God’s acts; very little of His ways. They only know what little their religion dare teach them.



I find this so amazing that the vast majority of God’s people are so mature in their little religious and hear their preachers, bishops and popes; but actually laugh at the thought of hearing/or seeing what God spirit is unveiling.

You are right about the road and gates to destruction are wide and broad (religion/doctrines of Damnation/eternal hell and torment, etc the negative list goes on) talk about destruction and few receive the life of the ages now; but remember each in their own order.

My parents could pay for something all of their life; but how can you bring the blood of Jesus down to what is possible to humans; There is no sin that will not be totally nailed to His cross. The SIN of Adam is not greater then His blood.

Nadiine said:

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Why do we seem to think God will repay everyone the same? Some will get alot, some will get next to nothing... etc.

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Yes I do.

Matthew 1</SPAN>For the kingdom of the heavens is like a householder who went out with the early morn to hire workmen for his vineyard.
2And having agreed with the workmen for a denarius the day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And having gone out about [the] third hour, he saw others standing in the market-place idle;
4and to them he said, Go also ye into the vineyard, and whatsoever may be just I will give you. And they went their way.
5Again, having gone out about the sixth and ninth hour, he did likewise.
6But about the eleventh [hour], having gone out, he found others standing, and says to them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7They say to him, Because no man has hired us. He says to them, Go also ye into the vineyard [and whatsoever may be just ye shall receive].
8But when the evening was come, the lord of the vineyard says to his steward, Call the workmen and pay [them] their wages, beginning from the last even to the first.
9And when they [who came to work] about the eleventh hour came, they received each a denarius.
10And when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more, and they received also themselves each a denarius.
11And on receiving it they murmured against the master of the house,
12saying, These last have worked one hour, and thou hast made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the heat.
13But he answering said to one of them, [My] friend, I do not wrong thee. Didst thou not agree with me for a denarius?
14Take what is thine and go. But it is my will to give to this last even as to thee:
15is it not lawful for me to do what I will in my own affairs? Is thine eye evil because *I* am good?
16Thus shall the last be first, and the first last; for many are called ones, but few chosen ones.