Eteral life is impossible to retract.

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Thunderchild

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Romans 11:26?
For one who is so fond of pointing out the Greek definitions, LouisBooth, you seem strangely reticent to point out the Greek word used for "all" in that passage, and its definition.

The word is [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"] pa" [/font] which has a meaning very different from [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"] pan [/font] "without exception."

The word [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"](pa")[/font] is that same which is used in the passage where the Pharisees are quoted as saying of Jesus, "the whole [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"] (pa")[/font] world has gone after him." - Quite clearly [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"](pa")[/font] does not mean "without exception," but "all classes of."
 
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Thunderchild

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1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) - Ah yes. Those who have been set free from sin and are enslaved to God are indeed the recipients of eternal life as a gift. (Romans 6:22) Now of course, it follows that those who are not enslaved to God, having formerly been enslaved to him, still retain the gift of eternal life. Well ... no - such people are not enslaved to God. They have once more become slaves of sin. The gifts are available to whom? Those who are enslaved to God. not to those who once were.

2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) Quite correct - they are irrevocable. Unfortunately for OSAS, they are granted only to those who are obedient. (ahem... "irrevocable" is a very pretty word, but it doesn't properly translate [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"]ametamelhta[/font] now, does it.) [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"]ametamelhta[/font] actually means "without repentance" - which quite clearly shows that GOD will not revoke them - but it says nothing about whether the person concerned may reject them.

3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1) The premise is but half baked. Eternal life is a gift from God to those who are and remain obedient. As shown by the very passage cited.

4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2) indeed - God does not retract these gifts. However, a faulty translation makes it possible to assume, based on this particular passage and without any attempt to reconcile this passage with other relevant passages to believe that this means the gifts cannot be rejected.

5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract. Based on a faulty interpretation of one word, based on a premise that only takes into account only a portion of the facts, the logical conclusion is made. The problem with logic is the law of GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). Logic can only process data made available, and a "logical" conclusion based on flawed data is flawed. The data provided for logic to process in this case is extremely flawed.

Yes indeed, worldly logic can be VERY impressive.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

It might be said of the foregoing, that "of course an idolater who does such things will have no inheritence in heaven." Or it might be said that "the person will be saved, but will inherit none of the riches of heaven beyond salvation." Colossians 3 obliterates any possibility that those objections might be valid.

Colossians 3: 5-7 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and <B>idolaters</B>, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor <B>idolaters</B>, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
 
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DaveKerwin

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Originally posted by Thunderchild
1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) - Ah yes. Those who have been set free from sin and are enslaved to God are indeed the recipients of eternal life as a gift. (Romans 6:22) Now of course, it follows that those who are not enslaved to God, having formerly been enslaved to him, still retain the gift of eternal life. Well ... no - such people are not enslaved to God. They have once more become slaves of sin. The gifts are available to whom? Those who are enslaved to God. not to those who once were.

2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) Quite correct - they are irrevocable. Unfortunately for OSAS, they are granted only to those who are obedient. (ahem... "irrevocable" is a very pretty word, but it doesn't properly translate [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"]ametamelhta[/font] now, does it.) [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"]ametamelhta[/font] actually means "without repentance" - which quite clearly shows that GOD will not revoke them - but it says nothing about whether the person concerned may reject them.

3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1) The premise is but half baked. Eternal life is a gift from God to those who are and remain obedient. As shown by the very passage cited.

4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2) indeed - God does not retract these gifts. However, a faulty translation makes it possible to assume, based on this particular passage and without any attempt to reconcile this passage with other relevant passages to believe that this means the gifts cannot be rejected.

5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract. Based on a faulty interpretation of one word, based on a premise that only takes into account only a portion of the facts, the logical conclusion is made. The problem with logic is the law of GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). Logic can only process data made available, and a "logical" conclusion based on flawed data is flawed. The data provided for logic to process in this case is extremely flawed.

Yes indeed, worldly logic can be VERY impressive.

Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

It might be said of the foregoing, that "of course an idolater who does such things will have no inheritence in heaven." Or it might be said that "the person will be saved, but will inherit none of the riches of heaven beyond salvation." Colossians 3 obliterates any possibility that those objections might be valid.

Colossians 3: 5-7 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and <B>idolaters</B>, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor <B>idolaters</B>, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,


ok, here we go.

premise 1 responce:
It does not follow that people who are "not enslaved to God" are disinherited from the gift of eternal life. Let me remind you that no matter what we do, we cannot earn that gift. It is given to us based upon our inability to attain it. If you wanna talk Romans 6, then lets do it. We are under grace, not under law. Our former selves were crucified with Jesus an we are not freed from the penalty of sin. If I am free from the penalty of sin, then I WILL share in Christ's resurrection, as I have already shared in his death. Jesus put sin to death once and for all, which is why we are dead to sin and now we are alive in Christ. I can never been dead in Christ, because Christ rose from the dead, and we will rise as well. (by the way, verse 22 of chapter six had NO implication that we could no longer be slaves to God. If anything, it says again how we are set free from sin.) We are enslaved to God, we are righteous, and not by our own merit. Premise one stands by itself because scripture speaks for itself. God's gift to us is eternal life, which is by faith in Christ.

premise 2 responce:
We agree that God cannot revoke his gift to us. But this notion of US revoking it seems unbiblical.

premise 3 responce:
There is nothing wrong with premise 3. It follows.

premise 4 responce:
Again with the unbiblical rejection theory, not true.

conclusion responce:
I see no extreme flaw for the conclusion. See my responce to premise 1.


Nice job calling it wordly logic. How is this even possible when I quote scripture... ? Wordly logic would use something outside of God's word.

Those scripture you quoted: No where does it say the people doing those acts are christians. The people mentioned will not inherit the kingdom of God because they are dead in their sins. Paul talked about people who call themselves a brother, yet behave immorally, and how we should be far from them. But the verses you quoted do not say that these people who are idolaters call themselves brothers. And like you quoted in the last verse from Corithians, the UNrighteous will not inheret the kingdom. That is very true, no unrighteous person will inheret the kingdom. But for we who believe, we are righteous by faith. We are righteous not on our own merit, but from the sacrifice Christ paid. So for the person who believes in Jesus, there is no unrighteousness, they are saved.
 
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LouisBooth

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"Note also that the verse says:: YOU STAND BY FAITH. I think that speaks for itself.
"

You're leaving out the ending of the argument MissS. Paul's conclusion is that Israel will be saved despite the fact of not believing in Christ. Thus I showed you the example you asked for :)


"The Scriptures clearly indicate that there is something to be said for having a healthy fear of the Lord"

I agree, fear of power in terms of respect. I fear my father when I was young in terms of he was my father. As I grew older the "fear" turned into a profound respect because of his 'station'. Its not fear as in I'm scared of him. It would be more aptly described as reverant awe. OSAS believes in this as well.
 
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LouisBooth

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"They have once more become slaves of sin. "

Noooo...a slave doesn't change their masters. It can't. See hosea for a great example.

"which quite clearly shows that GOD will not revoke them - but it says nothing about whether the person concerned may reject them. "

Actually the word you refer to "without repentance" is directed to the elect, not to God. The elect cannot repent of the gift. check your context ;)

"Ephesians 5:5-6 "

that's right and this verse shows that christians don't do that :) as does the col verse. The process of not doing it takes time however, and Paul acknowledges that in col in verse 2 and 8 in chapter 3 of col. So these verses again show that OSAS is a valid biblical postion :)

Whats funny is that the book of col screams OSAS. In verse 11 we see that salvation is a christ matter. He does it, thus we cannot undo it. (in chapter 2).
 
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Ben johnson

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Whats funny is that the book of col screams OSAS.
I was astonished that I had missed this in my reading of Colossians. So I went back and studied the book. Where is the "screaming OSAS"? Is it in verse 1:9-12?

"We have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with all power according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanx to the Father who has qualified us to share in the inheritance..."

Maybe it's in verse 1:21-23:

"Although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach, if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not be moved away from the hope of the gospel (Jesus)..." (OH YEAH, this is "empty hyperbole", negative-rhetorical-hypothetical can't REALLY HAPPEN". Do you believe Paul didn't-really-mean-it as he wrote this?)

Verse 2:6? "As you have received Christ, so walk in Him."

Maybe it's in verse 2:8:

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world rather than according to Christ." Is "being taken captive through deception, against Christ", compatible with being-saved? Or is Paul once again just "hyperbolating"?

How about in chapter 3?

"IF you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above; set your mind on above not on the Earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. THEREFORE CONSIDER the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, greed & idolatry. For it is on account of these things that the wrath of God is coming. Put them all aside, anger, wrath, malice, slander, abusive speech; do not lie, ...put on compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, forbearance, forgiveness, beyond all put on love which is the perfect bond of unity. Let the peace of Christ rule your hearts, let the word of Christ dwell richly in you..."

I dunno, it really sounds like all these traits are choices. Just as Peter writes in 2:1:5-11. The "walk-in-the-flesh" vs "walk-in-the-Spirit", is mirrored in Rom8---where it warns us, "if we WALK IN THE FLESH, it is SPIRITUAL DEATH..."

I don't see any "screaming-of-OSAS" in all of Colossians. Could you have meant Galatians?

1:6 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel..." These-who-desert-Christ, are they still saved? "If we, or an angel from Heaven preach a gospel contrary to that which we HAVE preached, let him be accursed." They're following a different gospel, an accursed one, but they're still saved? Or maybe they weren't really saved in the FIRST place?

In Chapter 2, "If you, being a Jew, live like Gentiles and not Jews, how is it you compel Gentiles to live like Jews? We are Jews by nature, and not sinners from among Gentiles; netertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ---even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law. ...For if I rebuild what I once destroyed (serving law rather than grace), I prove myself to be a transgressor..."

Chapter 3: "You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus was publicly crucified? Did you recieve the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now perfected by the flesh? ...NO one is justified by the law..."

Chapter 5: "KEEP STANDING FIRM and do not be subject AGAIN to a yoke of slavery. If you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. He who receives circumcision, is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you have FALLEN FROM GRACE, you who are seeking to be justified by law. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. I have confidence in you in the Lord, that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. ...Walk in the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh is in oposition to the Spirit. The deeds of the flesh are (list)... And those who practice these fleshly deeds shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And the deeds of the Spirit are (list)... If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit."

Tell me, do you think Paul was writing to Galatians that he considered fallen from salvation? (Because of a striving-after-law, their turning-from-grace?) "You have been SEVERED from CHRIST, you have FALLEN FROM GRACE!" Can it mean anything else? Or can this somehow be bent to mean, "OH he's just saying IF, he doesn't REALLY think some have fallen! Empty gum-flapping-hyperbole! Negative rhetorical hypothetical! Paul doesn't really MEAN IT!!!"



Does he?
 
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LouisBooth

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"Where is the "screaming OSAS"? "

Well for starters in verse 11 of chapter two..who saves you? Christ. its also pretty clear the analogy here used is circumsion, which, once done cannot be undone. Also in verse 13 it says he forgave ALL YOU SINS. Not just all your sins you had done, but all of them, past present and future.

Verse 3 in chapter 3 also shows that you can not longer be lost because you are hidden with Christ that none shall be able to snatch you away, including yourself, since God did it man cannot undo it.

This book screams OSAS, showing in quite a few places it was God that has the power to do this thing, thus we do not have the power to undo what God has done.

Remember ben, you are not your own, you were bought at a price, thus you can't choose to walk away. :)

"For if I rebuild what I once destroyed (serving law rather than grace), I prove myself to be a transgressor...""

Glad you pointed this out. This is paul telling us that if you continue in unrepentant sin, you probably aren't a christian. Great verse.

"Tell me, do you think Paul was writing to Galatians that he considered fallen from salvation? "

*chuckles* If you read the passage he is telling them that they don't need the law anymore and to try and live by it is senceless. Just a question Ben, My bible doesn't have a "chapter 5" so can you tell me what book you are reading from? Thanks.


OSAS is a valid biblical view.
 
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Ben johnson

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Well for starters in verse 11 of chapter two..who saves you? Christ. its also pretty clear the analogy here used is circumsion, which, once done cannot be undone. Also in verse 13 it says he forgave ALL YOU SINS. Not just all your sins you had done, but all of them, past present and future.
I think he was merely contrasting the "circumcision of the spirit through Christ" (grace), with the "circumcision of the flesh under LAW". I don't think he meant any insinuation on permanency here. Besides, Col2, the "CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST" is defined as "buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead." Do you think our RECEIVING Christ and our own FAITH has anything to do with this? (See 2:6) If the "circumcision of Christ" is through our own FAITH, what happens if that faith ENDS???
Verse 3 in chapter 3 also shows that you can not longer be lost because you are hidden with Christ that none shall be able to snatch you away, including yourself, since God did it man cannot undo it.
If therefore ye-were-raised with Christ, the-things above seek, where the Christ is at right-hand of God sitting; the-things above mind, not the-things on the earth; ye-died for, and your-life has-been-hid-with the Christ in God." Word-for-word-from-Greek. What translation do you use, with the words, "no one can snatch you away, including yourself"? Where is "what God did you cannot undo"?
Just a question Ben, My bible doesn't have a "chapter 5" so can you tell me what book you are reading from? Thanks.
Oh I think you read it closely enough to see that since I didn't find "predestination" in Colossians, I turned to Galatians---where it says things like, "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him", and "you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace". I think he really meant "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace"...
OSAS is a valid Biblical view.
MMmmmm, hmmmm...

;)
 
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LouisBooth

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"I think he was merely contrasting the "circumcision of the spirit through Christ" (grace), with the "circumcision of the flesh under LAW". "

Nope, for there is nothing in the surrounding passage before it that implies that. Circumsicion was a perminent thing, they jews knew that Ben, that's why he used that analogy.

"If the "circumcision of Christ" is through our own FAITH, what happens if that faith ENDS???"

Its not. In that passage its clearly said that it is done by Christ.

"Word-for-word-from-Greek. What translation do you use, with the words, "no one can snatch you away, including yourself"? Where is "what God did you cannot undo"?"

that's what the passage says Ben. You are hidden with Christ, the things that make you sin, their authority taken away. You cannot revoke what God has given you.


"I turned to Galatians---where it says things like, "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him", and "you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace". I think he really meant "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace"..."

In galatians you have to put it in perspective. These people told by people that they needed to follow Jewish law to be saved. In that context chapter 5 in Galatians is enlightening.

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him", and "you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace"

In the context I have described it is because they are trying to find salvation through the law, which is not a christian thing. So Paul is saying if you claim to be a christian don't say you have to live by the law. he is NOT saying you can fall away. Problem solved. OSAS again is shown to be the biblical valid postion.
 
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SnuP

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"For if I rebuild what I once destroyed (serving law rather than grace), I prove myself to be a transgressor...""

Glad you pointed this out. This is paul telling us that if you continue in unrepentant sin, you probably aren't a christian. Great verse.

Louis, he could not have even distroyed it unless he was saved because only Christ can distroy the work of the law in us. Our only part is agreement.
 
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DaveKerwin

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Something cannot be lost that we were unable to gain in the first place. The nature of salvation is God coming in and saving us because we were unable to save ourselves. The very notion of losing salvation goes against the foundation of our original inheretence of eternal life. By us having to maintain it, it says we have to earn it. And we all know salvation cannot be earned. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, NOTHING. Nothing can take us out of the Father's hand, NOTHING.

I agree with Jim Elliot, and I feel passion the same way he does. This is what he said. Think about this for a while.

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
 
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SnuP

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Your right it cannot be lost but it can be given back just like all free gifts. A gift is not free if it has to be accepted. To believe that it can not be given back then we have lost our ability to chose sin or righteousness.

Love is not love if it is forced. To say that God forces salvation or forces you to keep salvation is not in line with God is love. Love never forces its own will.
 
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Ben johnson

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Gr8 post, Snup! But what did you mean by, "A gift is not free if it has to be accepted."? A gift only becomes a gift, WHEN it is accepted. The gift of God is eternal life---through Christ---and He must be received. 1Jn1:12, Col2:6.
The very notion of losing salvation goes against the foundation of our original inheretence of eternal life. By us having to maintain it, it says we have to earn it. And we all know salvation cannot be earned.
This is a faulty conclusion. I hope that we agree on the essence of salvation---it being "fellowship with/in/through Christ" (1Jn1:3-6). Fellowship is a two way street. We do not save ourselves, yet there are verses that SAY we save ourselves. (1Tim4:16 for ex.) The dynamic behind those verses, is that we have a choice in that fellowship---precisely expressed by Jude: "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on you most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep youselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

Fellowship is salvation. "He who HAS the Son, HAS THE LIFE. He who has not the Son of God has not the life. I write this that you ...may KNOW you have eternal life." 1Jn5:12-13 And yet, John writes: "Many deceivers and antichrists have gone out into the world. WATCH YOURSELVES that you might not LOSE what you have GAINED. Anyone who GOES TOO FAR, and does not ABIDE in the teachings of Christ, has not God!" (2:1:7-9) Can it be clearer? We are saved by CHRIST, IN US.

...but He is IN us at OUR DISCRETION! It is up to US to receive Him, AND to abide in Him.

The INHERITANCE is eternal life with God---and it is RESERVED in Heaven for us! (1Pet1:4) We are protected by God, through faith (vs 5) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time...

I hope we also agree, that "the inheritance" is identical to "the promise" (the PROMISE is the INHERITANCE is ETERNAL LIFE). Thus many verses speak of our endurance, perseverance, diligence, in salvation Which is to say, they speak of our abiding in CHRIST. Heb10:36 for one: "For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive the promise". With verses like this (2Pet1:10-11, the EISODOS-GATE will be supplied in NO OTHER WAY) (Col1:21-23), how can "OSAS" possibly persist?

"Abide in ME, and I (will) abide in you. Anyone who does NOT abide in Me is cut off and ...cast into the fire." John15:6 Abiding is salvation! 1Jn4:15-16
Nothing can separate us from the love of God, NOTHING. Nothing can take us out of the Father's hand, NOTHING.
. You hafta read the verses exactly as they are written. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but Romans 5:8 says "He loved us before we were saved"---if we deny Him and fall because of faithlessness (2Tim2:11-13), will He not still love us, though we PERISH?

Sometimes it helps to read the original Greek. Nothing can "HARPAZO-SNATCH" us out of His hand. John10:28. But that word, "harpazo", is the exact word used in 1Thess4 for "rapture"---and it means, "sieze-or-remove-forcibly". Does it preclude voluntary apostasy? No. If it did, it would contradict James 5:19-20, 2Pet2:20-22, Heb6:4-6, and others.

While we are quoting from Romans 5, I like verses 17&18. They sum it up nicely:

"For if by the transgression of one man, death reigned through the one, much more those who RECEIVE the abundance of grace and who RECEIVE the gift of righteousness will reign through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgresion there resulted condemnation to all men, EVEN SO (in exactly the SAME WAY) through one act of righteousness (Jesus-on-the-Cross) there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN."

No "limited atonement", no "divine-installed-salvation", no "selected election". Being saved is "receiving Christ, and abiding IN Him". It is possible to disbelieve, hardened by the deceitfulness of sin and fall away from the living God (Heb3:1-14), to fall away from Christ (Gal5:4), to wander from the truth and perish (James 5:19-20), to fall away from the faith (1Tim4:1), to be taken captive by philosophy and empty deception (Col2:8), to reject faith and suffer shipwreck in regard to faith (1Tim1:19), to have ESCAPED through SAVED KNOWLEDGE but to TURN AWAY from Jesus and again become entangled in world's defilements and overcome (2Pet2:20-22), on and on and on. Where is the Scripture that says "you cannot become unsaved"? There is not one.

We are saved by receiving Jesus, by believing and abiding and walking in Him. Not by what we do, but by what He does in us. We are born again through belief---we do not believe consequently to being born again. God-the-Father gives to God-Jesus, those who believe (Jn6).

Eternal life is impossible to retract.

...by God...

Eternal life is very possible to reject.

...by us...

Diligence, pereverance, abiding, keeping in His love, fellowship, walking in Him, growing in Him, taking every thought captive to the obediance of Christ. Not keeping ourselves saved, but keeping ourselves IN HIM---that HE keeps us saved.

Because salvation is IN CHRIST.

And so are we.

...if we abide.

"By your endurance you will save your souls"! Luke 21:19

"...presented before God holy and blameless and beyond reproach, IF INDEED we continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the gospel" (Col1:22-23---the HOPE is JESUS---1Tim1:1)

"He is ABLE to KEEP you from stumbling and to make you stand in the presence of His glory, blameless with great joy, to the only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord." He is ABLE to KEEP us---and He keeps us THROUGH OUR OWN FAITH...

Therefore, be diligent to make certain of your calling and election...

Walk in faith, walk in Him. Every moment of every day.

"As you RECEIVED CHRIST, so walk in Him."

How can "OSAS" persist?

:)
 
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SnuP

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Originally posted by Ben johnson
Gr8 post, Snup! But what did you mean by, "A gift is not free if it has to be accepted."? A gift only becomes a gift, WHEN it is accepted. The gift of God is eternal life---through Christ---and He must be received. 1Jn1:12, Col2:6.

If some one crames your birthday cake down your throat then it is no longer a gift.&nbsp; It is also not free because you payed the price of losing your freedom to chose in order to recieve.&nbsp; God will not make you recieve anything (salvation, healing, blessing).&nbsp; The gift must be freely given and freely recieved in order to remain a gift.

There are only a few things that we have no choice over.

Everyman's flesh will die, everyman will face judgement, and everyman will worship.
 
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LouisBooth

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"Louis, he could not have even distroyed it unless he was saved because only Christ can distroy the work of the law in us. Our only part is agreement."

Exactly, proving that he would not be a christian in the first place. It would be you destroying it, not christ. Great job snup, you're proving my case for me ;)

"How can "OSAS" persist?"

Because 1. Grace is awesome 2. the bible declares OSAS. That's hot :)
 
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DaveKerwin

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If we can lose our salvation (which is what you are saying), then you are saying it is maintained by works. Works does not maintain our salvation. The righteousness of Christ was imputed to us and it can never go away. I don't find your interpretation to be accurate, which is probably the same thing you say to me. Regardless of who is right, I am going to follow Jesus Christ all my days, so I have nothing to worry about.
 
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DaveKerwin

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Originally posted by SnuP
Accually I am saying that it is maintained by keeping a open heart, by remaining in Christ, by simply having a relationship with God.

These are not works. They are atributes of being a son of God.

No, you are saying it by what a man can do that maintains his salvation. This goes against the qualifications to attain salvation in the first place. If we were unable to attain it, what makes you think we can maintain it? Think about that. How could God expect us to maintain something we were unable to gain? It is by God's Grace we are saved through faith, not by works. God's Grace does not require us to "keeping up our salvation". I am a child of God, and regardless if I run away or not, I will be his child. There is no changing that.
 
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