Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
You can lead an OSASer to water, but you can't make him get baptised
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Originally posted by Thunderchild
1. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23) - Ah yes. Those who have been set free from sin and are enslaved to God are indeed the recipients of eternal life as a gift. (Romans 6:22) Now of course, it follows that those who are not enslaved to God, having formerly been enslaved to him, still retain the gift of eternal life. Well ... no - such people are not enslaved to God. They have once more become slaves of sin. The gifts are available to whom? Those who are enslaved to God. not to those who once were.
2. for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:29) Quite correct - they are irrevocable. Unfortunately for OSAS, they are granted only to those who are obedient. (ahem... "irrevocable" is a very pretty word, but it doesn't properly translate [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"]ametamelhta[/font] now, does it.) [font="BSTGreek,Symbol,Greek"]ametamelhta[/font] actually means "without repentance" - which quite clearly shows that GOD will not revoke them - but it says nothing about whether the person concerned may reject them.
3. eternal life is a gift from God (premise 1) The premise is but half baked. Eternal life is a gift from God to those who are and remain obedient. As shown by the very passage cited.
4. gifts from God are irrevocable / impossible to retract (premise 2) indeed - God does not retract these gifts. However, a faulty translation makes it possible to assume, based on this particular passage and without any attempt to reconcile this passage with other relevant passages to believe that this means the gifts cannot be rejected.
5. Therefore, eternal life is impossible to retract. Based on a faulty interpretation of one word, based on a premise that only takes into account only a portion of the facts, the logical conclusion is made. The problem with logic is the law of GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). Logic can only process data made available, and a "logical" conclusion based on flawed data is flawed. The data provided for logic to process in this case is extremely flawed.
Yes indeed, worldly logic can be VERY impressive.
Ephesians 5:5-6 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
It might be said of the foregoing, that "of course an idolater who does such things will have no inheritence in heaven." Or it might be said that "the person will be saved, but will inherit none of the riches of heaven beyond salvation." Colossians 3 obliterates any possibility that those objections might be valid.
Colossians 3: 5-7 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and <B>idolaters</B>, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor <B>idolaters</B>, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
I was astonished that I had missed this in my reading of Colossians. So I went back and studied the book. Where is the "screaming OSAS"? Is it in verse 1:9-12?Whats funny is that the book of col screams OSAS.
I think he was merely contrasting the "circumcision of the spirit through Christ" (grace), with the "circumcision of the flesh under LAW". I don't think he meant any insinuation on permanency here. Besides, Col2, the "CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST" is defined as "buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead." Do you think our RECEIVING Christ and our own FAITH has anything to do with this? (See 2:6) If the "circumcision of Christ" is through our own FAITH, what happens if that faith ENDS???Well for starters in verse 11 of chapter two..who saves you? Christ. its also pretty clear the analogy here used is circumsion, which, once done cannot be undone. Also in verse 13 it says he forgave ALL YOU SINS. Not just all your sins you had done, but all of them, past present and future.
If therefore ye-were-raised with Christ, the-things above seek, where the Christ is at right-hand of God sitting; the-things above mind, not the-things on the earth; ye-died for, and your-life has-been-hid-with the Christ in God." Word-for-word-from-Greek. What translation do you use, with the words, "no one can snatch you away, including yourself"? Where is "what God did you cannot undo"?Verse 3 in chapter 3 also shows that you can not longer be lost because you are hidden with Christ that none shall be able to snatch you away, including yourself, since God did it man cannot undo it.
Oh I think you read it closely enough to see that since I didn't find "predestination" in Colossians, I turned to Galatians---where it says things like, "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him", and "you are severed from Christ, you are fallen from grace". I think he really meant "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace"...Just a question Ben, My bible doesn't have a "chapter 5" so can you tell me what book you are reading from? Thanks.
MMmmmm, hmmmm...OSAS is a valid Biblical view.
"For if I rebuild what I once destroyed (serving law rather than grace), I prove myself to be a transgressor...""
Glad you pointed this out. This is paul telling us that if you continue in unrepentant sin, you probably aren't a christian. Great verse.
This is a faulty conclusion. I hope that we agree on the essence of salvation---it being "fellowship with/in/through Christ" (1Jn1:3-6). Fellowship is a two way street. We do not save ourselves, yet there are verses that SAY we save ourselves. (1Tim4:16 for ex.) The dynamic behind those verses, is that we have a choice in that fellowship---precisely expressed by Jude: "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on you most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep youselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."The very notion of losing salvation goes against the foundation of our original inheretence of eternal life. By us having to maintain it, it says we have to earn it. And we all know salvation cannot be earned.
. You hafta read the verses exactly as they are written. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, but Romans 5:8 says "He loved us before we were saved"---if we deny Him and fall because of faithlessness (2Tim2:11-13), will He not still love us, though we PERISH?Nothing can separate us from the love of God, NOTHING. Nothing can take us out of the Father's hand, NOTHING.
Originally posted by Ben johnson
Gr8 post, Snup! But what did you mean by, "A gift is not free if it has to be accepted."? A gift only becomes a gift, WHEN it is accepted. The gift of God is eternal life---through Christ---and He must be received. 1Jn1:12, Col2:6.
Originally posted by SnuP
Accually I am saying that it is maintained by keeping a open heart, by remaining in Christ, by simply having a relationship with God.
These are not works. They are atributes of being a son of God.