[open] A Seeker Has Some Questions That I Think You Can Answer

seebs

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Is it possible for me to be converted with the following condition?

Yes.

That people are generally good.

I believe this. I also believe people are generally fallen; I also believe people are generally being redeemed. To ignore any one of these is problematic. To deny evil is to deny the potential for redemption. To deny redemption is to despair. To deny good makes the whole thing a joke.

That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

In the sense of "belief" as in "assent to propositions", I agree.

That said, there are a number of things I believe without proof, and indeed, nearly everything I believe is contingent on things that I cannot prove.

Sometimes, you have to punt. But yes; always look for good evidence first.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

This may be the hardest one. What do you do on things that logic and reason can't answer? If you reject them out of hand, then you're not gonna get very far on anything. If you take logic and reason as far as they will go, but no farther, and accept their limitations, they make an excellent core strategy.

That fear should never guide decisions.

Amen!

That new ideas should be examined.

That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

Absolutely agreed on both parts.

The condition is that no part of your attempt to convert me can override any of these tenets. The other option is to show that the tenet you override is not worth being a tenet. I ask this because every attempt to convert me has failed with this condition.

Well, I'm not much of one for "trying to convert people". You get to make up your own mind.

I can tell you that I pretty much agree with your tenets, and that I have ended up as a fairly zealous Christian.

The big questions, I think, are:

1. Why be Christian?
2. Why believe in God?

The answers to these are closely related. And no, neither is "some guy said so."

I am not very comfortable with unproven claims. I was raised by feral mathematicians, and I consider empirical evidence a poor substitute for real knowledge, which comes in the form of formal proofs. Empiricism might tell me what is; proofs tell me what can be.

This leads to a problem. How do I know anything? What do I make of my experiences? It is useless to deny that I have experiences; I have them, they are directly present, and all that's really at issue is how to interpret them. The interpretation which seems to have naturally arisen before I was even thinking about the question is that the sensations I have are in some way related to things external to me, most of the time. There are exceptions; sometimes I hear a high-pitched noise in one ear, or experience mild itching when nothing is touching me. Sometimes I dream.

Nonetheless, by and large, my conclusion has been that my experiences are of things. I further confirm this in two ways. First, I check for consistency of my experiences; second, I check them with the experiences of other people.

One category of experience, called "the numinous" by C. S. Lewis, is the thing that happens when people have religious experiences. I have some experiences like this; more sometimes than others. Since my general policy is to treat experiences as though they are experiences of something, I assume that something is happening. But what?

Most religions seem to have developed out of an attempt to answer this question.

A central theme of my experiences of whatever-this-is has been healing and compassion. I am not naturally a kind or patient person, but through some thing greater than me, I have become kinder and more patient. I know what it is like to have self-control, and I know what it is like to be stopped by something other than me, and sometimes, when I have experienced that sickening dread, the knowledge that I lost the leash again and I am about to do something I will always regret, I have found that it didn't happen, and a Presence was with me.

Over time, I have come to have a sense of what this presence is like. I have found that I know people in many religions who share this experience, although their words to describe it vary.

Of the various religions out there, I accepted Christianity, because I found that I recognized the person of Jesus in the Gospels as the One who has been with me. I am reasonably sure that the term "God" is an attempt to explain this experience, and I find that this experience is reflected in the Gospels. This is enough to make me a Christian.

I don't even understand attempts to convert people based on threatening them with God. When I was six, do you think you could have frightened me into going home, by telling me that if I didn't go home, my mother would come for me? No. (I know that some people would have been frightened by those words; it terrifies and saddens me.)

God is love, and perfect love casts out fear. Fear is not a motivation to do the right thing.

Pragmatically, supernaturalist or not, the teachings of Jesus work. There is a strange and even terrifying power in the way that loving your enemies transforms your experience of them. It is a thing of wonder. I can never go back.

Some of this, you will note, is rather more experiential, and rather less rigidly argued, than you might think appropriate from your tenets. This is because the question of value is inherently beyond the scope of logic. You can reason from a value judgement to a course of action, but you cannot reason to a value judgement; you must always start with one.

Hope this helps!
 
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DarkProphet

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As you've been honest here, I'll try to say this nicely--you might want to reconsider your approach. They way you've started both these threads seems a bit like....a guy takes to wearing armor under his clothes in case he gets mugged, but nobody attacks him, so he starts dressing up in designer clothes and strutting around, but still nobody attacks, so he makes sure his armor is still good and he gets all decked out in his Armani suit and leaves some money hanging out of his pocket, walks through the worst part of town at night and yells "Here I am, completely alone, come and get me!" He wants to see how well his armor holds up, but doesn't realize that most people don't just instinctively lunge at vulnerable-looking targets.

You must understand that these are real tenets that I live by so to say they are "armor" is not really a fair statement. As for the rest of your analogy... from what I have seen Christians tend to evangelize to people who are having trouble in there lives or are otherwise in an emotionally weak state. I have not presented myself as such so I would not say I am trying to present myself as a vulnerable target.

Maybe, rather than posing as conversion-bait, just ask "I'm trying to learn more about Christianity. In your view, could these principles fit into it? Why or why not?"

You are right that this probably not the best way to get information as you are not evangelicals but if it is not to much trouble, consider it a hypothetical and indulge me. I did not call it a hypothetical earlier because if you manage to show me something new about Christianity I would consider it. In any case what I'm trying to find out is how Christianity is presented to newcomers rather then see to if these principles could fit in Christianity.

As for why I believe in Christ...I'm seem to be in the middle of some sort of conversion at the moment, and am not available to answer theological questions concerning personal beliefs. Please leave your name and question, and I will get back to you as soon as I've figured out what the heck is going on in my head. Honestly, I'm not sure right now. It's quite possible that I won't believe in any God at all in two years, but so far I have not seen a compelling reason to give up that belief.

What I have seen compelling evidence for is that the Body of Christ (either, those who follow Christ the man/God, or those who follow Christ, the symbolic figure-head of a certain philosophical system; however you want to look at it) is not just another name for Christianity. I have found no reason to continue allying myself with Christianity. My allegiance is to the preservation and service of humanity, and the teachings of Christ are the purest and best guide I have found--the only system and teacher I can cling to with the full knowledge that I will never have to break that allegiance because my ally has stopped supporting my cause. I have stopped identifying as "Christian," because, as I said earlier, the religion can mean anything to anybody. And for some, I think it is very good and very beneficial, but for others it is used as a weapon.

You have successfully separated religion and God, and for that I congratulate you. Many Christians I have talked to think they are one and same.

Why have I not critically examined my belief in Christ as God (as opposed to Christ as the symbolic figure-head of a philosophically)?: Well, honestly, because I'm not sure it matters at all, and I am sure that, in my case, it does not matter enough to warrent the mental and emotional strain. What I mean when I say that I have rejected Christianity is that I simply don't care about whether, for example, Christ was all human and all God, or just a little less than all God, or any of the myriad other permutations of that belief you can find. I don't think that there's any way a human could possibly know that, if the question even makes any sense at all. So, I find theology interesting, but I don't think that we can "save" ourselves by believing in the right version of it. Why not abandon the concept of God and Christ altogether, and simply live by what I believe is right?

Might be pure existentialism--I know the belief is useful and meaningful to me.

What it comes down to, though, is that theology has become such an unimportant part of my belief system that, even if I were to find conclusive proof that none of it was true, it wouldn't matter much. I can accept the idea that the story of Christ is just a beautiful metaphore. I don't believe that, but I could accept it, and it wouldn't change much about the way I live. But, like I said a paragraph or so earlier, I don't think there is any way a human could know something like that or prove it true or false, and I've already got this belief in my head and heart.
So, summing up: it's there now. I have found no compelling reason to try to dig it out, it would be extremely painful to do so, and ultimately, there would be no point. So, I'll let it go. Yes, I believe in God and Christ. I believe many other things too, about theology, and have many more ideas about how God and the spiritual world could function, that would be interesting if true, and that I see no reason to strongly disbelieve, but also don't see any reason to believe. I guess I'm saving them as notes from when I go create my own universe.;)

You describe your current belief as almost as remnant of a past belief. It would seem that being a Christian and a humanist really is counterintuitive.
 
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seebs

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You have successfully separated religion and God, and for that I congratulate you. Many Christians I have talked to think they are one and same.

Consider the large number of Republicans, and Democrats too, in the US who believe that their party is patriotism.

We love to talk up the groups we identify with, while condemning others. If you would understand Christianity, you must learn to filter out the human frailties of the Christians telling you about it. :)

You describe your current belief as almost as remnant of a past belief. It would seem that being a Christian and a humanist really is counterintuitive.

For most mainstream institutional Christianity, this is the case. There are powerful counterexamples; Tony Campolo is a great speaker. My favorite of his quotes is "Tonight, I'm going to tell you three things. The first is that, last night, thirty thousand children died from starvation or malnutrition-related issues. The second is that you don't care. The third is that you're more upset that I said "care" than you are that thirty thousand children died."

Only he didn't say "don't care" in those words exactly; he said them in words that would violate the rules of the site to use. Even if one were attempting to encourage people to care about thirty thousand dead children.

It seems to me that Jesus was rather a humanist, and that the tendency of Christianity to turn into an institution focused on building up its own power rather than actually doing its job is the inherent fate of institutional power structures.
 
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DarkProphet

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The big questions, I think, are:

1. Why be Christian?
2. Why believe in God?

If I were to ask those questions directly I would get answers like, "To be saved" or "To bask in God's glory" or something along those lines. The thing is that if you are an unbeliever then you don't value those things and as such you never have a reason to be a Christian or to believe in God, at least from my point of view. So I suppose I'm looking for what would turn an unbeliever into a believer.

The answers to these are closely related. And no, neither is "some guy said so."

Unfortunately it would seem this is exactly why many Christians call themselves Christian.

I am not very comfortable with unproven claims. I was raised by feral mathematicians, and I consider empirical evidence a poor substitute for real knowledge, which comes in the form of formal proofs. Empiricism might tell me what is; proofs tell me what can be.

This leads to a problem. How do I know anything? What do I make of my experiences? It is useless to deny that I have experiences; I have them, they are directly present, and all that's really at issue is how to interpret them. The interpretation which seems to have naturally arisen before I was even thinking about the question is that the sensations I have are in some way related to things external to me, most of the time. There are exceptions; sometimes I hear a high-pitched noise in one ear, or experience mild itching when nothing is touching me. Sometimes I dream.

Nonetheless, by and large, my conclusion has been that my experiences are of things. I further confirm this in two ways. First, I check for consistency of my experiences; second, I check them with the experiences of other people.

I will agree that experiences exist.

One category of experience, called "the numinous" by C. S. Lewis, is the thing that happens when people have religious experiences. I have some experiences like this; more sometimes than others. Since my general policy is to treat experiences as though they are experiences of something, I assume that something is happening. But what?

Most religions seem to have developed out of an attempt to answer this question.

A central theme of my experiences of whatever-this-is has been healing and compassion. I am not naturally a kind or patient person, but through some thing greater than me, I have become kinder and more patient. I know what it is like to have self-control, and I know what it is like to be stopped by something other than me, and sometimes, when I have experienced that sickening dread, the knowledge that I lost the leash again and I am about to do something I will always regret, I have found that it didn't happen, and a Presence was with me.

Over time, I have come to have a sense of what this presence is like. I have found that I know people in many religions who share this experience, although their words to describe it vary.

This reminds me of a friend of mine that franticly called me one night to share his "religious" experience. He told me that he was awakened from his sleep but couldn't move and that he felt a presence in the room with him. He later googled the symptoms and found that it really was sleep paralysis.

Of the various religions out there, I accepted Christianity, because I found that I recognized the person of Jesus in the Gospels as the One who has been with me. I am reasonably sure that the term "God" is an attempt to explain this experience, and I find that this experience is reflected in the Gospels. This is enough to make me a Christian.

I take it then you looked at other religions?

Fear is not a motivation to do the right thing.

Exactly.

Pragmatically, supernaturalist or not, the teachings of Jesus work. There is a strange and even terrifying power in the way that loving your enemies transforms your experience of them. It is a thing of wonder. I can never go back.

The loving your enemies bit or the golden rule are not unique to Jesus. So I still fail to see why Jesus is needed.

Some of this, you will note, is rather more experiential, and rather less rigidly argued, than you might think appropriate from your tenets. This is because the question of value is inherently beyond the scope of logic. You can reason from a value judgement to a course of action, but you cannot reason to a value judgement; you must always start with one.

What do you mean by value?
 
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seebs

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If I were to ask those questions directly I would get answers like, "To be saved" or "To bask in God's glory" or something along those lines.

Not from me.

Actually, I might go with "saved".

The thing is that if you are an unbeliever then you don't value those things and as such you never have a reason to be a Christian or to believe in God, at least from my point of view. So I suppose I'm looking for what would turn an unbeliever into a believer.

Understanding that everyone's been lying to you about the point.

Salvation does not mean you're bored forever, but at least you're not on fire.

Unfortunately it would seem this is exactly why many Christians call themselves Christian.

A tragedy. However, you do not need to be trapped by their error.

This reminds me of a friend of mine that franticly called me one night to share his "religious" experience. He told me that he was awakened from his sleep but couldn't move and that he felt a presence in the room with him. He later googled the symptoms and found that it really was sleep paralysis.

That kind of thing happens. It is useful to look at alternative theories to explain an experience, rather than just accepting the first theory which comes along.

I take it then you looked at other religions?

Yes. I was "raised Christian", but I went pretty much straight from having no idea what they were talking about to being pretty sure they were full of it. I was pretty hostile to Christianity when I was younger; so far as I could tell, "Christianity" meant being an utter jerk to gays and feeling smug about it.

The loving your enemies bit or the golden rule are not unique to Jesus. So I still fail to see why Jesus is needed.

I don't think you're understanding my argument at all.

I don't think you need to believe in Jesus, any more than you need to believe in Newton, or you need to believe in gravity, for that matter. You will continue to have inertia, and be affected by gravity, no matter what you believe.

However, the better you understand inertia and gravity, the more effectively you can make use of them to plan your actions. And, as a simple matter of fact, Newton was a real person, so believing that he existed is correct.

What do you mean by value?

Value is its own thing; it cannot be defined in terms of other things. Value; morality. The idea that one thing is better than another. Obviously, we all have subjective experiences of preferring one course of action to another.

There is no way to come up with a purely rational set of values that does not ultimately appeal to "but I like this better". You can come up with things like "this way of acting makes people happy", but where do you get the idea that we should make people happy? You can say "if everyone acts like this, I will be happy", but why should that be your goal?

Trying to give a "definition" of value and morality in terms of other things is like trying to explain Z in terms of X and Y. It goes nowhere.

It is also totally unnecessary, as everyone experiences the preference of some things over other things, and disagreements about preferences, so we already understand the question. This is a word for a thing we have experienced; we don't need to explain it in terms of other things, and every attempt to do so fails.
 
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DailyBlessings

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Continuing:
That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.
This is the only one of your statements that I disagree with outright. What is "proof", and has anything tangible ever been proven? I'm a great admirer of the scientific method- observe, experiment, draw conclusions, then test again. In the rational mind, there ought to be no room for any proofs, because we have no reason to believe that anything can be proven beyond question. Any proof is only as strong as the assumptions that underlie it.

Many other Christians, however, might steadfastly agree with you on this point. Those who believe that the Bible is inerrantly and literally true- most Americans, in short- maintain that the mention of something in Scripture is significant enough to prove its virtue. Most Catholics feel essentially the same way about pronouncements from the Vatican, as the Pope is the inheritor of the authority of Christ (in other words, they recognize that much of the Bible is subject to interpretation, but feel that this interpretation should be administered by a person in a direct line of succession from the apostles). The only question, of course, is whether one agrees with the source from which "proof" is flowing.
 
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dies-l

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[1] That people are generally good.

[2] That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

[3] That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

[4] That fear should never guide decisions.

[5] That new ideas should be examined.

[6] That old ideas should be changed if they are found to be wrong.

I have some observations that I would like to share. First of all, I will say that neither I nor anyone else here can convert you or "save" you. That is something only God can do. All we can do is give you information and food for thought that might help you to see better who God is and is not.

Response to #1: The Bible says that we are made in the image of God, and that God is, by definition good. See, e.g., Gen. 1:26. Therefore, on one level, people are generally good, in that they are created in the image of the ultimate good. But, to be intellectually honest with you, I must share with you the other side of the Christian teaching on this: We have chosen, in many respects, not to live up to this ideal. See, e.g., Gen. 3. Because of the decisions that the first people made and that each of us have continued, we fall short of God's ideal. Rom. 3:23. Therefore, although we are created to be good, through our decisions we all fall short of this ideal and need God to bring us back to it. We believe that God has made this possible through the life, death, and resurrection of His only Son, Jesus. See, e.g., Rom. 3:24. I don't know to what extent this answers the question, other than to point out that things are not so simple as to call humans "good" or "bad."

Response to #2: What is proof? I understand proof to be sufficient evidence to alter one's opinion on a given matter. If this is how you define proof, then I don't see anything inconsistent with this statement and Christian belief. But, if you define proof as sufficient proof to render an idea as irrefutable, then I don't know that one can really believe anything outside of what can be directly observed. People who have had a personal experience with Christ are usually convinced that we have proof of His existence and who He is. Those who have not had this experience often beg for proof. Ironically, I believe, much of the evidence of who God is is inaccessible until we are willing to accept on faith the possibilities that (a) God exists, (b) He cares about each of us, and (c) that Jesus is the clearest example of who God is.

Response to #3: God created everything, including reason. Therefore, if we have a correct concept of reason, then our faith should never be in conflict with it. So, for example, if our understanding of a given theological concept seems unreasonable to us, we should change either our understanding of that concept or our understanding of reason. The problem is that, if you ask a million people what is reasonable, you are likely to get a million answers. All the time people promote ideas under the guise of "reason" that are utterly unreasonable to another. And the Bible says that God often works, in His wisdom, by using people and ideas that are regarded by the world as foolishness. See 1 Cor. 1-2. This is to say that God is not limited by human wisdom, but I would also say that, as the author of wisdom and reason, He does not act contrarily to reason either. I would suggest to you, however, that if you are willing to take a basic step of faith, that you should allow your faith to shape your sense of reason as well as to allow your sense of reason to shape your faith. In both respects, I believe we are prone to error.

Response to #4: Fear is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can cause us to make foolish decisions. If we are being chased by a grizzly bear, and we don't know what else to do, I think it is safe to say that nature endowed us with fear and adrenaline to get us by in a pinch. But, the decision to come to faith is not a decision one should make in a pinch. Therefore, I would suggest that one not make their decision to follow Christ out of fear of, for example, going to Hell. Instead, I think that this decision should be made out of hope: that God can and will change our lives meaningfully and for the better if we are willing to let Him. Essentially, I believe, and I think this is consistent with Christian teachings, we should be guided in the most important decisions by faith, hope, love, and reason, rather than fear.
Response to #5: Absolutely new ideas should be examined!!! For someone who is not a Christian, the decision to follow Christ is a new idea. As a Christian, I feel that I should never be completely confident and content in my understanding of God and who He is. A faith journey should be defined by considering different perspectives of God from both within and without the Church. We should, however, always have a basic sense of what is true, by which we can anchor ourselves, so that we are not completely vulnerable to be carried off by whatever whim or emotional appeal may be presented to us in a given moment.

Response to #6: Again, I say absolutely, only with the caveat that you need some anchor by which to decide whether or not an idea has been shown to be wrong.

Just one more thing, I realize that scripture is often not persuasive to someone who has not already accepted its authority. Instead, I have cited scripture only to give you a sense of what the Bible says about what Christians believe. I would encourage you to read some of these passages beyond the cited verses. I would also add the caveat that Scripture can be manipulated to support just about anyone's opinion, so as for Scripture references, please don't just take my word for it, but look for yourself. Secondly, I have a book recommendation that might be useful to you: Your God is Too Small, by J.B. Phillips. It is and older book (1950s, I believe), but it is available on amazon.com. Also, although it is short, some might consider it a bit dense (depending on how much of a reader you are, you might find it, a bit light, as well). It is quite helpful though in dispelling common misunderstandings of the Christian concept of God, as well as spelling out a clearer understanding of who He is, as we understand Him.
 
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Im_A

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So what reasons do you have to believe? and why is faith so vital?​
the reasons why i believe still is simply because of the teachings of Christ. now Christ's teachings may not be entirely "brand new". mere examples would be the two greatest commandments. those are nothing new. they are found pre-Christ incarnating as man into this world. to me, something doesn't have to be brand new. if it can reach beyond Christianity as "truth" then that shows more credibility in my opinion, than something being created in our own minds. and then as the Gospels (cannonical or non-cannonical) tell us of his life there is something Divine. i mean one cannot deny the impact that this man had on the world. whether it be in disbelief, or belief, or all the opinions of all the religions have on this man, my next conclusion is why is this man so important to have any view on, and that is another aspect that i see as a reason to keep along believeing in Christ's teachings.

then why is faith so vital? the bible does mention that faith is the evidence of things unseen. so things of a supernatural nature needs some kind of reasoning to believe exists.

another way to look at it, there has to be more reason to believe than to just enrich your life. that's borderline selfish in my opinion. the heart of Christianity to me is a radical call to one's life to not be selfish...to either rise above our humanity or what i'm starting to wonder to be more of the human being were made to be like. thus using faith to better the world (i know religion has been used to do harm but anything can be done for that), to betteer our neighbors and everyone else around us, is another reason why i see faith very vital. and if we become better people in the outcome (which is assumed because these things produce good fruit) then that's another blessing to be thankful for but not the sole intention. i hope i stayed on topic here.


This is a tenet so it does not imply that I'm looking for any specific kind of proof, it simply means that to have proof is better to believe without proof. If Christianity demands belief without proof then that overrides this tenet.
fair enough :) i think modern Christianity is based around some kind of belief in proofs or at reasoning why there is proof that it is true. it may vary from person to person but it's still a search to say the least. so in all essence, your doing what we all do already even tho your not a Christian. you want proof to know something is truth correct? your no different than us Christians.

the reason why i asked is because i didn't know if you were requiring your tenet to prove the existence of God or were you talking about something else.

This is a tenet so what it means is that I use logic and reason to under stand the world. If Christianity demands that I use something else to understand the world then that would override this tenet.
for sake of discussion, how do you personally define "logic and reason"? many Christians out there of all different shades of colors of theological thought, find their views within logic and reason.

sure you may hear from Christians that you can't think like the ways of the world and you have to think in ways of the spirit, but how is even that defined?

so for the sake of our discussion, i ask again that you define as detailed as you can how you define logic and reason?

Again this is a tenet so what it means that I don't consider fear when making decisions.​
i asked to define it specifically because there are different types of fears and i was wanting to be sure what exactly you meant, or did you mean fear in general. i'll try to explain why i asked.

there are Christians that live their life in fear of their image of their god/God because it is defined in specifically the Old Testament and maybe Revelations and other bits and pieces in the New Testament about how wrathful God is according to the prophets and the Jewish people. so to transgress against this being in sin, would thus lead to wrathful reactions.

then a new way i'm seeing it in my own life is, i've been trying to erradicate that from my own life. if God is someone in my life constantly then i can't be running terrified of little thing i do in fear my life will be ruined by the hand of being with anger like me. reverance and terrorized fear are two different things. but what i'm afraid of doing is failing the greatest commandments of Christ. not because i believe it will send my pitiful soul to hell, but because every action i do has a reaction. i don't want to ruin people's lives because of my stupidity/sinful ways. the other personal side of this is that i have done that, so when you realize how bad your failures can affect people's lives, you just begin to want to be sure you do the right things so that people around you can have a good affect from your deeds. i'm not a type of Christian that runs in fear all the time.

so with that said...how do you live your life? are you concerned about how your actions affect people's lives? some may define that concern as fear, others may not. i don't know how it is seen personally. (i'm not asking that sarcastically, just asking as part of our discussion in either one to understand your tenant better, or to give you a new way of looking at Christianity.)

This is true but I was talking about ideas that are new to me.
ok so present ideas in Christianity that are new to you and we can discuss them. :)

It means the facts don't fit an idea then that means that the idea is in error and should be changed.
[/quote]


I apologize if it seems like trickery, I mean no disrespect. Consider it a hypothetical situation where you are an evangelists and I am someone you are randomly trying to convert.
no reason to apologize. some do not see convincing people to the Gospel as trickery. you have no reason to apologize and i didn't see that as disrespectful by any means. :)

i just don't see convincing as having any ultimate fruit that is worthwhile. let's say for the moment, i convince you to Christianity. the days and nights will come where you don't have contact with me, and maybe the days and nights of doubt come and you leave the faith. what good was the prior convincing? who were you believeing more? being honest to yourself or accepting my reasoning as ultimate truth? so i just don't see any reason to convince you to Christianity. to many times we see people digging into the pain of one's lives to open up some emotional breakdown to come to believe. i find that disrespectful and i know you didn't mean that, it's just, the idea of convincing anyone for that matter has too many bad things in it to me.

Well, if you show me a new way of looking a Christianity then I would have to examine it if I am true to my own tenets.
i do hope that i, or others here give you a reason to see new Christianity in a new way or at least to venture deeper into your search for it to where you possibly either convert on your own terms, and if you don't you won't find any condemnation from me or probably the majority of us regulars here at WWMC.

what do you mean by which conscience?
this is kind of going back to why i don't convince people. i would have to convince you that your conscience, your reasoning is flawed and mine is correct and right. so my concern is that if i would attempt to convince you, you'd be convinced of my conscience, instead of think about all the pro stuff and searching and you seek God to find your place in the religion of Christianity. plus i don't want to be so prideful in my attempts at trrying to give you a reason that my conscience is the ultimate source of truth and it seems too many Christians are like that in my opinion. so many think that because it made their life better that means it can make anyone's life better. the possible facts are that it may just be something for them and them alone in working out their life here on earth. so i would feel better to discourse in the attempt of giving you a new way to see Christianity by discoursing in depth of all your questions and then reply and that you use it only as a reason to continue searching this faith out. i hope i explained that and stayed on topic. :)
 
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DarkProphet

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the reason why i asked is because i didn't know if you were requiring your tenet to prove the existence of God or were you talking about something else.

The existence of God is something that cannot be proven because of the nature of what God is supposed to be. So in that I could not ask for proof, instead I would ask for proof that the doctrines of your religion are consistent and justified.

so for the sake of our discussion, i ask again that you define as detailed as you can how you define logic and reason?

It troubles me that you would even ask for a definition because there are no shades of logic or reason. Unfortunatly I cannot give an adequate definition of logic or reason but I would hope that they are self evident. I will say that from what I have seen Christians use logic and reason but either deliberatively or unintentionally ignore facts so as to reach a desired logical conclusion.

so with that said...how do you live your life? are you concerned about how your actions affect people's lives? some may define that concern as fear, others may not. i don't know how it is seen personally. (i'm not asking that sarcastically, just asking as part of our discussion in either one to understand your tenant better, or to give you a new way of looking at Christianity.)

Yes, I am concerned how my actions affect other people but I wouldn't describe it as a concern, rather it would be a desire to improve the human condition.

ok so present ideas in Christianity that are new to you and we can discuss them. :)

I not sure there is anything about Christianity I haven't already covered. I have read the Bible and as a book I would have to say it's overrated. I have seen the evidence and the books presented by Christians and I have seen it all discredited. A small part of the reason I'm here is to see I missed anything... it would seem not.

i just don't see convincing as having any ultimate fruit that is worthwhile. let's say for the moment, i convince you to Christianity. the days and nights will come where you don't have contact with me, and maybe the days and nights of doubt come and you leave the faith. what good was the prior convincing? who were you believeing more? being honest to yourself or accepting my reasoning as ultimate truth? so i just don't see any reason to convince you to Christianity. to many times we see people digging into the pain of one's lives to open up some emotional breakdown to come to believe. i find that disrespectful and i know you didn't mean that, it's just, the idea of convincing anyone for that matter has too many bad things in it to me.

I see what you mean but you realize that Christians do this all the time. Be it through foreign aid ministry, AA, or even children's ministry Christians tend to target people who are at an emotionally weak point in their lives.

this is kind of going back to why i don't convince people. i would have to convince you that your conscience, your reasoning is flawed and mine is correct and right. so my concern is that if i would attempt to convince you, you'd be convinced of my conscience, instead of think about all the pro stuff and searching and you seek God to find your place in the religion of Christianity. plus i don't want to be so prideful in my attempts at trrying to give you a reason that my conscience is the ultimate source of truth and it seems too many Christians are like that in my opinion. so many think that because it made their life better that means it can make anyone's life better. the possible facts are that it may just be something for them and them alone in working out their life here on earth. so i would feel better to discourse in the attempt of giving you a new way to see Christianity by discoursing in depth of all your questions and then reply and that you use it only as a reason to continue searching this faith out. i hope i explained that and stayed on topic. :)

It was my understanding that Christians view non-Christians as going to hell and because of the love thy neighbor clause they would be obligated to try to convert non-Christians. Or at least that is how I have heard it justified before.
 
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Margim

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That to have proof is better then to believe without proof.

That logic and reason should be at the core of how the world is viewed.

These are the only two that I wouldn't necessarily agree with personally - but I don't see them as 'issues'. It comes down to personal style and preference. They are not issues of faith, but perception (ie, there are those that don't need proof to believe, or reason to understand - intuitive/creative types).
 
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Im_A

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The existence of God is something that cannot be proven because of the nature of what God is supposed to be. So in that I could not ask for proof, instead I would ask for proof that the doctrines of your religion are consistent and justified.
ok i understand what your saying now.

ok so let's start the doctrines predominatly taught. i'll await for you to bring on up and we can discourse from there more about this.


It troubles me that you would even ask for a definition because there are no shades of logic or reason. Unfortunatly I cannot give an adequate definition of logic or reason but I would hope that they are self evident. I will say that from what I have seen Christians use logic and reason but either deliberatively or unintentionally ignore facts so as to reach a desired logical conclusion.
this is where we disagree some.

mere examples, and i'm not meaning to talk about these examples specifically, but for a mere example:
1. the atheist vs. the theist. both having "logical" arguments to prove why they believe, yet they come to different conclusions.

2. the proverbial, "worldly view" vs "viewing through the Spirit." both use logic and reason to come to their conclusions but each conclusion is different.

my point was, i don't believe in an ultimate logic and reason. if logic and reason is defined as critical examination, there is no ultimate conclusion with things. human beings, including myself, are biased creatures. we see the world, religion through our own eyes and our own conscience and experiences and thus our conclusions are all based on that. we can affirm our conclusions through holy scriptures, or other methods, but we're all biased thus leading me to believe that there is no ultimate logic and reasoning, only relative. the only ultimate truth i see out there is the commandments of Christ.

Yes, I am concerned how my actions affect other people but I wouldn't describe it as a concern, rather it would be a desire to improve the human condition.
you and i are saying the same thing then. :)


I not sure there is anything about Christianity I haven't already covered. I have read the Bible and as a book I would have to say it's overrated. I have seen the evidence and the books presented by Christians and I have seen it all discredited. A small part of the reason I'm here is to see I missed anything... it would seem not.
i haven't read your other thread, so if there is anything you covered there, i have missed. now are you meaning the new ideas proposed to you such as the reincarnation, virgin birth, saving yourself from hell in the afterlife?

I see what you mean but you realize that Christians do this all the time. Be it through foreign aid ministry, AA, or even children's ministry Christians tend to target people who are at an emotionally weak point in their lives.
yes i realize this but you mentioned earlier that your willing to hear Christianity explained in a new way. thus your getting it bro. :)

now before i say this, i mean no disrespect to these groups that do that. if they can offer something to someone that will lead them away from indulging in the bottle, give them a sense of peace when their life is in turmoil because of their surroundings, and if a child can have joy by believeing in God and Jesus in whatever manner, i am completely gun ho about it.

but there has to be more to Christianity than for it to be a medicine for only the crazy, drunks, depressed people in our society. my point is said a lot better by an author.

Whatever it was that people experienced in Jesus has today come to be identified with medieval doctrines based on premodern assumptions that are no longer believable. That identification means that serious theological discussion seems to accomplish little more than to erect a division between the shouters and the disinterested. Jesus becomes the captive of the hysterically religious, the chronically fearful, the insecure and even the neurotic among us, or he becomes little more than a fading memory, the symbol of an age that is no more and a nostalgic reminder of our believeing past.

this is what i hope to stray away from. there has to be more to Christianity, to Jesus than a very blunt/realistic point that this author made(i agree with this statement of his). the author is John Shelby Spong and the book is called, "Jesus for the Non-Religious." it is quoted from pg. 8.

It was my understanding that Christians view non-Christians as going to hell and because of the love thy neighbor clause they would be obligated to try to convert non-Christians. Or at least that is how I have heard it justified before.
yes i have heard that too, and tried to before. but i have a problem with that now.

number one, putting myself in view, am i powerful enough to make a statement of who goes where? do i know every heart out there? can i save a soul? can i destroy a soul?

the obvious answer in my opinon is no. i believe that "God" is the only one that can do that, so what does that mean for the Gospel? if the Kingdom of God is here and now, then i focus my "preaching"/my "love your neighbor as yourself" solely based on being a part of the Kingdom of God on earth and that's what i see in the Gospels.

two, look at church history with this issue. so many theological viewpoints have come in and out of history in Christianity. ranging for reincarnation, universalism, annihalationsm, fire and brimestone doctrine. after all the schisms, reformations, nothing is still set...thus for me, it shows the importance of it all...which is slim to none imho. the only one that i personally find as logical is universalism. that Christ accomplished the deed by His incarnation and that if it is God's Will that all be saved through Christ, who can thwart the will of God? but with that said, i can't go far into it to even preach it because, i don't believe a finite being, can truly predict an infinite being...a being that transcends all types of terms, theism and all those isms.

and thirdly and lastly, i want to love people for who they are instead of thinking my love can be perverted into a sense that i can lead them into an afterlife place while they are in the present life.
 
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Im_A

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btw DarkProphet, if you the time and money here some authors to get started with seeing Christianity in a new light.

1. John Shelby Spong
2. Marcus Borg
3. Brian McLaren
4. Paul Tillich
5. Hans Kung
6. C.S. Lewis
7. Karl Barth

the list could go on and to give each of them their credit they are different in their own ways and maybe even opposing in their own ways, but still no matter what, some good authors to get started with seeing Christianity is a new light.

also there are many of us regluars (whether we hold the Christian icon or not) that are pretty knowledgeable about these authors and can help you out with any of their stuff if you have the time and money to invest and read into.

:)
 
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Im_A

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seebs

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It was my understanding that Christians view non-Christians as going to hell

Not all Christians agree on this question.

I think it's ludicrous; it's like claiming that only people who believe in gravity are affected by it.
 
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glo1

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After looking at your church I see where you are coming from but one question I have to ask is why do you believe in Christ?

The existence of God is something that cannot be proven because of the nature of what God is supposed to be. So in that I could not ask for proof, instead I would ask for proof that the doctrines of your religion are consistent and justified.
Welcome, DarkProphet

This is a great thread, and it has developed into a good discussion - and I am reluctant to distract it by another post.

But, if I may, I would like to pick up on the above comments.
I am speaking from my own experience only, and other may disagree or have different experiences - but my beliefs in Jesus are almost entirely outside the 'rational realm'.

There is much (but not everything) in Christian teaching that I find rewarding, beneficial and inspiring. So if you are looking for consistent and justified doctrine, you will probably find it - but on it's own it is likely not to be enough to 'make you a Christian'.
If you look, you will find helpful teaching and doctrine in all manner of other religions/faiths/worldviews too ...

There is much (although sometimes not much at all!) in the behaviour and attitude of Christians around me, which I find helpful, uplifting and inspiring. You will find those kind of people - but again, you will find them outside Christianity too ...

What I am trying to say is that it cannot just be doctrine and believers' behaviours alone, which make you seek Christ.
God himself does that! Through his Spirit, through situations, through stirring things up inside you ...
Perhaps that is the reason why many people seem to come to Christ in times of crisis, heartache and trouble ... that's when they are more receptive to the idea and influence of God.

The reason to become a Christian - to my mind - has to be Jesus Christ, and nobody else!

I don't know if this is a helpful post. I feel I am rambling ... :blush:

glo
 
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Mling

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It was my understanding that Christians view non-Christians as going to hell and because of the love thy neighbor clause they would be obligated to try to convert non-Christians. Or at least that is how I have heard it justified before

Many people do believe this, and I, too, think it's silly. I think that, whatever "salvation" is on a spiritual level, (even in the Bible, there is really no explanation of what, exactly, Jesus accomplished in the ressurection or the mechanics of how it affects the world), it is Christ who saves people, and not themselves. I do not believe that a person can save himself by believing the right things. That's why I focus on the social side of salvation--trying to restore the world by following Christ's teachings, rather than the spiritual side.
 
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Toney

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The reason to become a Christian - to my mind - has to be Jesus Christ, and nobody else!

Glo, please allow me pick at your post to pursue a contrarian train of thought:

Jesus Christ was a Jew. Jesus died a Jew. I believe Jesus will return as a Jew. Jesus never converted, why should Dark Prophet?

Humans accept a different concept of God when old God(s) stop working; when they lack efficacy. One day, and one day soon in my opinion, Christianity as we know it will stop working. Perhaps it already has.

We now see signs of Christianity devolving into a Cult of Jesus, especially among thriving Fundamentalist sects. Personally, I don't know their Jesus. I don't believe their Jesus ever existed; don't much care for their Jesus.

My Jesus, a Jewish Prophet, certainly did exist, but did not found a new religion. God and Paul did this for the purpose of bringing the pagan hordes under a civilizing Judaeo-Christian umbrealla. Today, we call the Heart of that Horde Europe and her offspring Western Civilization, once called Christendom.

This 2000-year-old entity has now become what our European ancestors affectionately termed an Old Crone, Cailleach, or Baba Yaga, etc.

The Crone symbolized the transition process from winter to spring, from death to rebirth, or the process of redefining God, and is what the Bible prophesizes as the Great Tribulation. The signs of this tumultuous transition abound.

Convert and apprehend the numinous, and then give the archetype any name you like. Help re-mythologize tomorrow -- platform of the New Train of Thought.
 
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glo1

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Hi Toney
I have not long fallen out of bed, and I am just sucking on my first coffee.
Perhaps it's not the best time to try and reply meaningfully to your post ... but I will try anyway ... ;)

Glo, please allow me pick at your post to pursue a contrarian train of thought:
...
Jesus never converted, why should Dark Prophet?
Somehow that's the point I was trying to make.
I am not trying to convert DarkProphet, and I don't think anybody else can either. True conversion (in my mind) depends on a deep conviction from within.

It seems to me that DarkProphet may (or may not) be considering the Christina faith on a purely rational basis.
If the doctrine can be proven to be sound and justified, it may be a religion worth exploring ...

Perhaps there are people who become Christians on those grounds. To me personally it is an alien concept. :scratch:

Choosing to follow Christ is not like choosing your political party or joining a local club - it's about entering into a relationship with God, and having an inner desire to do so and to remain so.

I would be interested to hear about others' reasons for becoming a Christian ... because this is the only one I know ... :scratch:

glo
 
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Hi Toney
I have not long fallen out of bed, and I am just sucking on my first coffee.
Perhaps it's not the best time to try and reply meaningfully to your post ... but I will try anyway ... ;)


Somehow that's the point I was trying to make.
I am not trying to convert DarkProphet, and I don't think anybody else can either. True conversion (in my mind) depends on a deep conviction from within.

It seems to me that DarkProphet may (or may not) be considering the Christina faith on a purely rational basis.
If the doctrine can be proven to be sound and justified, it may be a religion worth exploring ...

Perhaps there are people who become Christians on those grounds. To me personally it is an alien concept. :scratch:

Choosing to follow Christ is not like choosing your political party or joining a local club - it's about entering into a relationship with God, and having an inner desire to do so and to remain so.

I would be interested to hear about others' reasons for becoming a Christian ... because this is the only one I know ... :scratch:

glo

Well stated. I became a Christian in response to what God was doing in my life at the time. I came to a point where I sincerely wanted to have a relationship with my Creator and began to seek who He was. As I continued in my seeking, I came to believe (and I believe that this was the result of God revealing Himself to me) that God is knowable in the person of Jesus Christ. It was only after I came to the point that I started to become aware of all of the reasons that faith in Christ is completely reasonable and rational.

But, without the relationship and the life change that occurred as a result of that relationship, I don't know if anyone could have convinced using only arguments based on reason.
 
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