Is baptism neccesary for salvation?

Originally posted by LightBearer
Blackhawk:


Your resoning is flawed.

We are all imperfect and can only do our very best to comply with Christs commands, and that is all he requires of us. But when one delibirately chooses Disobeys a command "Make desciples baptizing them" that's an entirely different matter. You are then applying your own standards of what is right and wrong and choosing for yourself what and what not to obey. After all, isn't that what Adam did.

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I never said that one who said "I will not be baptised.  No way."  Is probably saved.  I was just pointing out that one does not have to obey all the commands of God to be saved.  This is evident because none of us are perfect. What I was reading in your post was that since Baptism was a commandment that it just goes right along with salvation.  That somehow if God commands somethign and we do not do it then we are not saved.  This can't be true just stated like that. 

 However I think we need to be real careful about when we say things like anyone who "delibirately chooses Disobeys a command" is not saved.  I can think of my struggles and unfortunately I have known that certain acts were sins and then I did them anyways.  I know I am commanded to "love my neighbor"  but then I yell at the driver who cut me off.  Now these examples seem more trivial than disobeying a command like baptism but we are still deliberately disobeying a clear command of God.

Blackhawk

I take your point.

I was reffering not to disobedience through imperfection such as you mention. Your example: failing to apply the command of love at all times. God does not expect us to be able to do so, only that we try our best which you humbly do. So I'm sorry for any missunderstanding on this point, it was not my intention to give the immpresion you were disobedient on this point. I refer specifically to Commands of doctrine, "To Baptize". This is not a matter of whether or not, or to what extent we can obey, it is the case that we must obey. As Jesus said , "for in this way it is suitable for us to carry out all that is righteous.” (Matthew 3:13-15)

Best regards,

LB

[Originally posted by eldermike]
,

[Have you ever considered that in the third Chapter of John Jesus was not trying to get people to obey Him but to know him, to know who He was and why He was there. Look at it again. I beleive you are adding something that is not there. Please don't rewrite scripture. "obey" is not in John 3:36.]



[This young man is rejecting God but because the church has taught Him that they are holy and He is not. They have taught Him that they work for salvation and He can't see a way to get back to even with God because he has already done too much. One day we will answer for our message.]
[Salvation is a gift given by God, never to be taken away.]

Teach  him what Jesus said in Mark 16:16! and What Peter said in Acts 2:38. Baptism is a free gift from God through Jesus Christ, It take's faith to follow what Jesus taught.

[Matt 28:19 Jesus already explaind this to Nichedomus. "Born again" = in Spirit. Born the first time: = water. The word "water is not in Matt 28:19.]

You are baptize in Water,  Matt 28:19 water is inferred by the words Baptizing them.  So water is in the text. 


[I have no issue with water baptisim as an act of obediance. I agree that we should all have a water baptisim. ]

You say you have no issue with water baptism, That's hard to believe, because when ever someone bring's it up you're saying what it can't do for up.

Here's a challenge for you or any one, "show us in the new testament where the bible teaches that baptism in water is not or never has been for the remission of sins or to be saved"

.

Blessings [/B]

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eldermike,  First, your understanding of John 3 is way off, how did you come to believe that the new birth was ever talking about physical birth?  If you notice vs 4 in John 3 Nicodemus ask, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? vs 5 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

What Jesus is talking about here is coming into his kingdom the church as a new spiritual person 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This happens when we are baptized into Christ, Rom.6:3-7; Col 2:12-13; Acts 2:38;22:16; Gal 3:26-27; 1Peter 2:2.

In John 3:10  Jesus asked Nicodemus, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these thing?

If you are a teacher you shall know what the bible is teaching.

Then you aways say what "words"  "(obey)" are not is a text, I just want to know if you know about when something is inferred in a text?  in reference to John 3:36, he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;

This text says, if you do not obey, you will not see life. It's inferred in the text.  (Larry in crimson)

I know you weren't asking me, but Yes! I raised this point earlier in this thread. Acts chapter 10:44-48 Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit in verse 44 and then is baptized later in verse 48. He would not have received the Holy Spirit had he not been saved. Clearly the baptism here is in obedience to Christ's commands once saved, not to receive salvation.

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An interesting viewpoint. However, I find it questionable - by baptism in water, a person's sins are washed away. He is raised to new life in Christ Jesus. "Can anyone refuse water that these be not baptised who have received the Holy Spirit even as we." Peter was very eager to see that people were baptised in water once they had received the Holy Spirit. Why would that be? Surely it couldn't be that a person is baptised into the Holy Spirit by the baptism into the Holy Spirit, and baptised into the name of Christ by baptism in water, could it now?

Bible,

Is there something I can do for you? I have not a clue how to address your post.

Blessings

Again - people who are interested in finding out for themselves what the Bible ITSELF has to say about baptism are invited to make a start by undertaking a simple Bible Study offered gratis at
http://pub43.ezboard.com/fwayrunnersfrm16.showMessage?topicID=10.topic

This young man is rejecting God but because the church has taught Him that they are holy and He is not. They have taught Him that they work for salvation and He can't see a way to get back to even with God because he has already done too much. One day we will answer for our message.]
[Salvation is a gift given by God, never to be taken away.

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Is this a reference to the rich young man who asked what he must do to be perfect?

Originally posted by Thunderchild
An interesting viewpoint. However, I find it questionable - by baptism in water, a person's sins are washed away. He is raised to new life in Christ Jesus. "Can anyone refuse water that these be not baptised who have received the Holy Spirit even as we." Peter was very eager to see that people were baptised in water once they had received the Holy Spirit. Why would that be? Surely it couldn't be that a person is baptised into the Holy Spirit by the baptism into the Holy Spirit, and baptised into the name of Christ by baptism in water, could it now?

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What you say could be right, but then you would have to ignore the verses that talk about salvation through belief only. Two examples (there are others) of which are: John 5:24 and John 3:16. For the bible to be consistent, the common element to these verses and the ones stated where baptism is commanded is that the salvation is imparted at the time of belief, not at the time of baptism. Otherwise John 5:24 would be wrong because it doesn't include baptism. This can't be.

In looking back over this thread it would seem to me that all the people who believe that salvation comes through baptism + belief either ignore or explain away the verses which teach salvation through belief only.  Where as those with the correct opinion harmonize these two sets of verses.

The commands of Christ must be obeyed, but the acts of obedience (baptism and others) give witness to God's grace, they are not the reason we are saved.

Regards,

Clinton

Originally posted by cthoma11
What you say could be right, but then you would have to ignore the verses that talk about salvation through belief only. Two examples (there are others) of which are: John 5:24 and John 3:16. For the bible to be consistent, the common element to these verses and the ones stated where baptism is commanded is that the salvation is imparted at the time of belief, not at the time of baptism. Otherwise John 5:24 would be wrong because it doesn't include baptism. This can't be.

[[In looking back over this thread it would seem to me that all the people who believe that salvation comes through baptism + belief either ignore or explain away the verses which teach salvation through belief only.  Where as those with the correct opinion harmonize these two sets of verses.

The commands of Christ must be obeyed, but the acts of obedience (baptism and others) give witness to God's grace, they are not the reason we are saved.]

Regards,

Clinton

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]]

Can I jump in here!  First of all the bible no where said we are saved faith (only) by or through "faith" (only), but by  faith or through faith.

What we need are conversions by examples, because when we read verses like John 5:24 and John 3:16 we don't understand what Jesus is telling us.  Remember Jesus is preparing his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel or good news to all men.

The book of Acts gives us our examples of salvation, what we must do, and how we must do it.

Let's examine Saul of Tarsus. Acts 9:1-22

He was on his way to capture christians to bring them bound to Jerusalem.

The Lord met him on the road to Damascus, and ask him why was he persecuting Him Jesus.

Saul asked who are you Lord?

The Lord answered, Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Saul asked, Lord, what will you have me to "do"?

Question: why didn't the Lord save him then?

The Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, AND IT SHALL BE TOLD THEE WHAT THOU MUST "DO".

Question: is there something other than (faith only) in the Lord's answer?

The Lord prepared Ananias for Saul, vs11 Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

vs.12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hands on him, that he might receive his sight.

Ananias tells the Lord what he heard of Saul vs.13-14.

vs.15 But the Lord said unto him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

vs.16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

vs.17 Ananias laid's hand on Saul to receive his sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

vs.18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

vs.20 Preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Saul who became Paul rehearsed his conversion in Acts 22, and 26.

Acts 22:16 Ananias told him: and now WHY tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Question: If we are saved by (faith only) Why would Paul rehearse this point of baptism in his conversion?

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

This same Saul who became Paul could not have been teaching that baptism is not for salvation, because he rehearsed what he was told to do by Ananias, who received the word from Jesus him self.  So Paul wrote Eph. 2:8-9 and by his own conversion he could not be saying that his conversion was not right could he?

 

Very good points.

"Question: If we are saved by (faith only) Why would Paul rehearse this point of baptism in his conversion?"

So you think Paul wasn't saved until AFTER he got there? I think he was saved long before that.

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
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Can I jump in here!  First of all the bible no where said we are saved faith (only) by or through "faith" (only), but by  faith or through faith.

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Jump away. However, the second sentence above makes no sense.

Originally posted by The Bible is Right

What we need are conversions by examples, because when we read verses like John 5:24 and John 3:16 we don't understand what Jesus is telling us.  Remember Jesus is preparing his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel or good news to all men.

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I think what Jesus was saying was quite clear. The reason you need to "explain" it is that it doesn't line up with your theory.

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
The book of Acts gives us our examples of salvation, what we must do, and how we must do it.

Let's examine Saul of Tarsus. Acts 9:1-22

He was on his way to capture christians to bring them bound to Jerusalem.

The Lord met him on the road to Damascus, and ask him why was he persecuting Him Jesus.

Saul asked who are you Lord?

The Lord answered, Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Saul asked, Lord, what will you have me to "do"?

Question: why didn't the Lord save him then?

The Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, AND IT SHALL BE TOLD THEE WHAT THOU MUST "DO".

Question: is there something other than (faith only) in the Lord's answer?

The Lord prepared Ananias for Saul, vs11 Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

vs.12And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hands on him, that he might receive his sight.

Ananias tells the Lord what he heard of Saul vs.13-14.

vs.15 But the Lord said unto him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

vs.16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

vs.17 Ananias laid's hand on Saul to receive his sight, and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

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So Paul received the Holy Spirit in vs. 17 then was baptized in vs. 18 then received forgiveness of sins when he was baptized afterwards. Sorry, this doesn't explicitly say when Paul's sins were forgiven. These verses give no support to your position. These verses also supports the position that he was baptized out of obedience. 

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
vs.18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

vs.20 Preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Saul who became Paul rehearsed his conversion in Acts 22, and 26.

Acts 22:16 Ananias told him: and now WHY tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Question: If we are saved by (faith only) Why would Paul rehearse this point of baptism in his conversion?

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If we are not saved by faith alone why is salvation through faith alone mentioned explicitly in over 60 verses in the New Testament? You will have to explain all 60 of these verses away, a lot of the New Testament, to support your position. If we are not saved by faith alone why does Ephesians 2:8 say "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."?

Originally posted by The Bible is Right

Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:

 

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Yet in the very next verse, it talks of repentance being the turning point to God and the proof of their repentance is their deeds? I would say this verse points away from your position.

Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

Originally posted by The Bible is Right

This same Saul who became Paul could not have been teaching that baptism is not for salvation, because he rehearsed what he was told to do by Ananias, who received the word from Jesus him self.  So Paul wrote Eph. 2:8-9 and by his own conversion he could not be saying that his conversion was not right could he?

 

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I think you can paint "what if" scenarios and then read whatever meaning into these scenarios to contradict what is clearly stated. But doing this in no way adds any support to the position that clearly contradicts what is said in Eph. 2:8-9. You are using the difficult portions of Paul's writings to explain away the clear portions. 

[[

Originally posted by cthoma11
Jump away. However, the second sentence above makes no sense.] ]

It makes great sense. 


[[I think what Jesus was saying was quite clear. The reason you need to "explain" it is that it doesn't line up with your theory.] ]

So are you saying that what Jesus was teaching was not to prepare his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel? 

[[So Paul received the Holy Spirit in vs. 17 then was baptized in vs. 18 then received forgiveness of sins when he was baptized afterwards. Sorry, this doesn't explicitly say when Paul's sins were forgiven. These verses give no support to your position. These verses also supports the position that he was baptized out of obedience.]]

vs 17 Ananias tells Saul what the Lord sent him to do.  vs.18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.  So you must get your facts straight.  Not only that, but in vs 18 his sins were wash away.  To prove this point, Acts 22:16 is what Paul tells the chief captain in Acts 21:37 and he makes his defense in ch 22:1-24.  I don't have to create things, I only gave what the bible says.  Because the bible is right! 



[[If we are not saved by faith alone why is salvation through faith alone mentioned explicitly in over 60 verses in the New Testament? You will have to explain all 60 of these verses away, a lot of the New Testament, to support your position. If we are not saved by faith alone why does Ephesians 2:8 say "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."? ]]

Again the bible does not say we are saved by "faith alone" you are adding the word "alone" or "only" to the scriptures.  We are saved through Faith!

When we Hear the gospel. Romans 10:17

When we believe the gospel John 20:30-31

When we repent of our sins Luke 13:3,5

When we confess the name of Jesus Christ as the Son of the living God. Matt.10:32; Rom.10:9,10.

When we are baptized for the remission of our sins Acts 2:38; 22:16; Mark 16:16; Matt.28:19,20.

If you would read 1Cor. 15:1-4 Paul will tell you he receive the same things.

[[Yet in the very next verse, it talks of repentance being the turning point to God and the proof of their repentance is their deeds? I would say this verse points away from your position.] ]

The proof of their deeds was not their baptism, it was the way they live their lives.  Baptism is what put us into Christ, Rom 6:3-7; Col.2:12-13. Gal.3:27 we put him on.  Newness of life starts when we come up out of the water. Romans 6:4, and it is when we are circumcised spiritually by God, Col.2:11,12, We are made alive, "quickened" together with Christ, Col.2:13.

No other way can we be raised to walk in newness of life, Rom.6:4 or to put on Christ Gal. 3:27, receive spiritual circumcision, Col.2:11-13, to enter the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, ONLY by being BAPTIZED IN WATER THROUGH FAITH!

[[Acts 26:20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.]]

He is saying do what I have done. 


[[I think you can paint "what if" scenarios and then read whatever meaning into these scenarios to contradict what is clearly stated. But doing this in no way adds any support to the position that clearly contradicts what is said in Eph. 2:8-9. You are using the difficult portions of Paul's writings to explain away the clear portions. 

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]]

I mentioned before, about Eph 2:8-9, you never refer to vs.1-7 of the same chapter, WHY?

You will find that we have been "Quickened" made alive, by being raised up by God to sit with Christ.vs. 1,6.     Question: Raised up from where?

Please find the answer to this question, then you will understand vs 8-9 that you might be saved. my answers in maroon.

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
[[ ]]

I mentioned before, about Eph 2:8-9, you never refer to vs.1-7 of the same chapter, WHY?

You will find that we have been "Quickened" made alive, by being raised up by God to sit with Christ.vs. 1,6.     Question: Raised up from where?

Please find the answer to this question, then you will understand vs 8-9 that you might be saved. my answers in maroon.

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This chapter is not refering to baptism. Versus 1-7 do not refer to baptism. Therefore they were not in my original discussion. We are being raised up from the dead, us being dead due to our sins.

What you say could be right, but then you would have to ignore the verses that talk about salvation through belief only. Two examples (there are others) of which are: John 5:24 and John 3:16. For the bible to be consistent, the common element to these verses and the ones stated where baptism is commanded is that the salvation is imparted at the time of belief, not at the time of baptism. Otherwise John 5:24 would be wrong because it doesn't include baptism. This can't be.

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I will spell it out: There is N-O - P-A-R-T - O-F - T-H-E - B-I-B-L-E - T-H-A-T - S-A-Y-S - B-Y - B-E-L-I-E-F - A-L-O-N-E. There are some passages that only state the need for belief (or faith), that is not the same thing as saying belief (or faith) alone. Those who claim faith alone ignore every passage which states that salvation is by any other means. The process of salvation does not consist of only one factor, but a number of factors. If by faith alone, grace does not figure into salvation. If by grace alone, faith does not figure into salvation. The Bible explicitly states that the gospel saves, that sanctification saves, that baptism saves, preaching saves, even that the scriptures save, and other factors are named. Never in any passage is the claim made that "(whatever) alone" saves. Even some of those passages which say "believe" and you will be saved include baptism in the statement. As to faith (or belief) alone - Jesus himself said that it is not enough to just believe. On more than one occasion, and in more than one context.

Even from day one - certain requirements were made of believers, other than that they have faith...Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

[

Originally posted by cthoma11
This chapter is not refering to baptism. Versus 1-7 do not refer to baptism. Therefore they were not in my original discussion. We are being raised up from the dead, us being dead due to our sins.

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]

 

• You say that this chapter is not refering to baptism, but it talk about us being raised up from the dead right?
• Now does the bible let us know how we are raised up from the dead?
• Romans 6:1-11, and verse 17. vs4 let us know that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so ye also should walk in newness of life.  After we had been dead, buried and raised from the watery grave of baptism.
• When we interpretate scripture with scripture we get a bible answer.
• So if you would to true to scripture, and I ask you a question about where did he raise us up from?  Your answer is from the dead.
• My next question would be, How did he do it? 
• Col.2:12,13.

Eph. 2:1-7 does give the answer, and I believe you know the answer, but the question is, will you admit that you know the answer to vs.1-7.

"I will spell it out: There is N-O - P-A-R-T - O-F - T-H-E - B-I-B-L-E - T-H-A-T - S-A-Y-S - B-Y - B-E-L-I-E-F - A-L-O-N-E. "

*chuckles* then so will I
There is N-O P-A-R-T O-F T-H-E - B-I-B-L-E T-H-A-T - S-A-Y-S Y-O-U A-R-E C-O-N-D-E-M-N-E-D I-F Y-O-U A-R-E N-O-T B-A-P-T-I-S-T-E-D.

It does say if you don't believe you are condemned. That's ALL it mentioned. Thus belief is all that is needed.

"Those who claim faith alone ignore every passage which states that salvation is by any other means. "

*sigh* if you hold this view then NO one is saved because you can't be saved by grace then only by baptism and faith, then ONLY by belief, then only by (fill in the blank). thus according to your logic we are ALL unsaved.

"certain requirements were made of believers, "

I agree, but these are all POST salvation and having to do with sanctification.

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
[]

 

• My next question would be, How did he do it?
• Col.2:12,13.

Eph. 2:1-7 does give the answer, and I believe you know the answer, but the question is, will you admit that you know the answer to vs.1-7.

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You quote Col 2:12,13, but the sentence actually begins in verse 11. Looking at this in context, the verses are:

11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
14  having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.


So according to verse 11 the sinful nature is put off with the "circumcision done by Christ". Clearly this is a spiritual reference of when our sinful nature is put off. It answers your question of when we were raised from the dead. Further, it therefore makes  sense that the rest of the sentence is referring to the baptism of the spirit. Verse 12 states: "raised with him through your faith in the power of God". Surely we have faith (belief) in God's power before we get baptized in water. Again, to me (and all of the commentaries I have read) this is a further example of how water baptism is an act of obedience to show what has already taken place when we accept God's salvation through faith.

Originally posted by LouisBooth
[B
It does say if you don't believe you are condemned. That's ALL it mentioned. Thus belief is all that is needed.
[/B]

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Louis' summation of Mark 16:16 and the logic applied can't be argued with. I've said this before and will say it this one last time, belief alone is the only way to reconcile all (not just some) of the verses referring to salvation. Those verses which say belief and those which associate the act of obedience which include among other things, baptism.

If we claim to love Jesus, we would obey his commandmens, surely. John 14:15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments". Not butt against them

"Go and make disciples "Baptizing them". all of Jesus disciples must be baptized in water as he was and set the pattern for all those who would follow him. “In fact, to this [course] YOU were called, because even Christ suffered for YOU, leaving YOU a model for YOU to follow his steps closely”. 1 Peter 2:21

I agree, but these are all POST salvation and having to do with sanctification.

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And as has already been pointed out - Salvation is by sanctification.

Bible is Right> Cthoma is correct - that particular passage does not refer to baptism.

 

I agree, but these are all POST salvation and having to do with sanctification.

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And as has already been pointed out - Salvation is by sanctification.

Bible is Right> Cthoma is correct - that particular passage does not refer to baptism.

 

There is N-O P-A-R-T O-F T-H-E - B-I-B-L-E T-H-A-T - S-A-Y-S Y-O-U A-R-E C-O-N-D-E-M-N-E-D I-F Y-O-U A-R-E N-O-T B-A-P-T-I-S-T-E-D.

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Indeed there is no such statement. However, there is a statement that says baptism now saves us. Moreover, the Bible also declares that salvation is by remission of sins. How is that remission achieved again?

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Is there some argument that it is wrong to require of people that they do works?