Is baptism neccesary for salvation?

[eldermike]

Bible,

I believe that after rereading my post in this exchange that you simply don't know what I beleive. I also now know that I can't fix that.

Blessings

 

[eldermike]

Bible,

Is Jesus God?

Blessings

 

[DaveKerwin]

Do we need to be baptized to be saved? no.

no.

still no.

 

[The Bible is Right]

[

Originally posted by DaveKerwin
Do we need to be baptized to be saved? no.

no.]

still no.

I notice you have no scriptures to back up your statements on this subject.

According to you NO.  But according to Jesus YES! Mark 16:16.  Acts 22:16

 

[eldermike]

DaveKerwin,

Amen.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Can you show me in the bible after Jesus asended into heaven where someone was saved before they were baptized into Christ?

And tell me when do we walk in newness of life?

 

[eldermike]

If you will answer my question, yes I will. But it will be tomorrow most likely.
I do want to know where you stand on the Trinity doctrine though.

 

[The Bible is Right]

Originally posted by eldermike
If you will answer my question, yes I will. But it will be tomorrow most likely.
[I do want to know where you stand on the Trinity doctrine though.]

 

The word "Trinity" is not used in the bible, but the concept is there, Matt. 3:16-17

Jesus is baptized the "Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

We have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in this text.

 

[eldermike]

ok, thanks. I will post more tomorrow on your question.

Blessings

 

[LouisBooth]

*wonders why Jesus specifically distingished between water baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit*

I think it was because one saves and the other doesn't the baptism of the HS comes on when you believe as described in John chapter 3. the other is to reflect what is happening in the spiritual realm and is a meaningful ritual.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Can you show me in the bible after Jesus asended into heaven where someone was saved before they were baptized into Christ?"

Are we talking about the water ritual or baptism of the HS?

 

[eldermike]

Can you show me in the bible after Jesus asended into heaven where someone was saved before they were baptized into Christ?

Bible,

I don't think we have connected on or differences quite yet. I don't believe anyone was saved any other way. That would include all of the NT and since. Your second question will most likely bring out another difference.
Dieing to self is a decision we make. We can't walk in anything other than our old flesh unless we die. That is a decision we make.

EPH 4:20 You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. 21 Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

When we die (put off our old self) we can walk in a new Life, how else can it be. If we died to self and did not walk in a new life then we would just be dead.

Blessings

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Susan


Ed's words are in blue. Mine are in black

First of all, I am a member of the IGLESIA NI CRISTO which reflects the soundness (or lack of it) of my judgment. You see, choosing a religion or church is also a matter of judgment.

Yes, and one can make horribly bad judgment. Like 900+ persons who joined a church called the "People's Temple" believing it and its leader were the way of salvation.

All of those people would die in the worst cult-related tragedy in recorded history (at least until the bin Laden Islamic cult attacked America).

Anyone can make a bad judgment. You are not excepted, it is part of being human.

Fortunately for me, my judgment is sound becuse it is founded on the rock. You may recall what Jesus SAID about those who HEAR his WORDS and does them. They are likened to a WISE man who built his house upon the rock. Those who HEAR his WORDS and do NOT do them, he likened to a foolish man who built his house on sand.

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO teaches that Jesus is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God. This is PRECISELY what Jesus TAUGHT! Jesus taught that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Does your church TEACH the same doctrine that Jesus TAUGHT?

"Check these witches' words against the word of God!" he says.  "If their messages are DIFFERENT than mine, it is because I have NOT sent them; for they have NO light or truth in them" (Isaiah 8:20 The Living Bible).

How can you be sure that the INC itself, rather than mainstream evangelical Christianity, is not described by: "different" and "has no light or truth in them?" Their doctrine and practice seems to run counter to both the Bible and to historic Christian teaching. 

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO  teaches that there is ONLY ONE true God and that is the FATHER. This is what Jesus TAUGHT (John 17:3). FALSE churches TEACH otherwise. 

"...I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19:10).

This verse has been twisted to justify more cults than I can think of. A few offhand would be Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and even the Branch Davidians.

And how can you again be certain that this verse refers to the INC?

Because I have yet to meet a pastor or a priest who can show me a prophecy attesting to their being a fellow-servant and brother of Christ. When Christ was starting his ministry, he was handed the book of Isaiah and read the prophecy concerning him and his mission. Then he told them that "today, the scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO can PRESENT prophecies concerning her re-emergence at a place and time designated by God through the preaching function of a messenger SENT by God who is also attested to by prophecies.

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO teaches doctrines of God and she has the "testimony of Jesus" which is the "spirit of prophecy."[/color]

Yeah? Show me some other proof then, rather than one out of context Scripture verse that has a history of being twisted by every cult under the sun.

Catholic and Protestant churches teach the Trinity doctrine. The INC does NOT. Jesus did NOT teach the Trinity doctrine.

What prophecies has the INC made that no one else has, and what is their accuracy rate? Like how many missed prophecies have they had also?

The spirit of prophecy does NOT mean that a FELLOW-servant prophesies. The INC does NOT prophesy so we don't have missed prophecies like the JWs and the SDAs.

Yes, I will admit that the INC *may* somewhere have a few doctrines of God. However, does that justify the rest?

Do Catholic and Protestant churches have ANY doctrine of God? Can you name one?

Let's say I gave you a freshly baked lemon pie. However, I tell you that I replaced half of the lemon juice with soap. Would you eat that? Of course not, and I would challenge your sanity if you requested to.

Is half lemon and meringue worth soap and a trip to the hospital?

Is some doctrines of God mixed in with a cultlike organization worth potential personal spiritual disaster?

Can you show me one FALSE doctrine of the INC?  

Look, I don't know what you have heard about non-INC Christians, but we DO have the testimony of Jesus, as well as that of His Word. Unless by "testimony of Jesus" you are using an INC buzzword and mean something entirely different than "how He has changed our lives and reconciled we who were lost sinners to Himself."

Read Rev. 19:10 again Susan and you will realize that even your understanding of "testimony of Jesus" is FALSE! The "testimony of Jesus" is the "spirit of prophecy."  Like I said earlier, the SENDING of Jesus by God was PROPHESIED in the Bible. That's his PROOF that he had been SENT by God.

Ahh, I'm getting tired of this post, and you will probably ignore everything I had to say. But please consider it.

I try to answer every post if possible. Sorry I couldn't get to it sooneer.

Ed

 

[cthoma11]

Originally posted by The Bible is Right
Can you show me in the bible after Jesus asended into heaven where someone was saved before they were baptized into Christ?

I know you weren't asking me, but Yes! I raised this point earlier in this thread. Acts chapter 10:44-48 Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit in verse 44 and then is baptized later in verse 48. He would not have received the Holy Spirit had he not been saved. Clearly the baptism here is in obedience to Christ's commands once saved, not to receive salvation. 

Regards,

Clinton

 

[LightBearer]

Never the less, water baptism is a command of christ, so it's all part and parcel of the same thing. The warning is clear here about not obeying Jesus' commands. John 3:36 “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him”.

Jesus command is Matt 28: 19.  "Go and make desciples batizing them"

Dont get baptised in water, dont get salvation. Simple really.

 

[eldermike]

Lightbearer,

Have you ever considered that in the third Chapter of John Jesus was not trying to get people to obey Him but to know him, to know who He was and why He was there. Look at it again. I beleive you are adding something that is not there. Please don't rewrite scripture. "obey" is not in John 3:36.

This part is not to you, I just want folks to know why I am defending this issue. It's part of my ministry. I know, and am working with, a young man right now that has been convinced that He is too dirty to come to God. He was raised in church got into trouble, drugs and is now trying to clean himself up enough to come back. His church has convinced Him that He is the problem. Guess what: They are the problem.

John 3: 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

This young man is rejecting God but because the church has taught Him that they are holy and He is not. They have taught Him that they work for salvation and He can't see a way to get back to even with God because he has already done too much. One day we will answer for our message.
Salvation is a gift given by God, never to be taken away.
We battle with Satan, not people. God loves people, hates satan. I said, this is not for you, so don't take this personally.

I will defend the simple message of salvation.

Matt 28:19 Jesus already explaind this to Nichedomus. "Born again" = in Spirit. Born the first time: = water. The word "water is not in Matt 28:19.


I have no issue with water baptisim as an act of obediance. I agree that we should all have a water baptisim.

Water will not save you. Works will not save you. Salvation is free and has no return policy. Jesus saves.

Blessings

 

[LouisBooth]

"Dont get baptised in water, dont get salvation. Simple really."

This is not true at all. Baptism is not needed for salvation. It is a meaningful ritual to show the change that has happened in the spiritual realm (ie your recreation in Christ). There are several reasons your no baptism, no salvation stance should be questioned. 1. NONE of the disciples were depicted as getting baptised. 2. the theif on the cross was not baptised. 3. Several verses (most everyone talking about salvation in context) address ONLY belief and not baptism at all. If it was that important it would have been at least elluded to in EVERY instance. 4. Your mat cite has nothing to do with salvation, making someone a disciple is having to do with sactification.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by LightBearer
Never the less, water baptism is a command of christ, so it's all part and parcel of the same thing. The warning is clear here about not obeying Jesus' commands. John 3:36 “He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life; he that disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him”.

Jesus command is Matt 28: 19.  "Go and make desciples batizing them"

Dont get baptised in water, dont get salvation. Simple really.

In your line of reasoning none of us will see life for we have all disobeyed the Son.  Romans 3 makes it clear that we have all strayed.  Is that not why we need salvation anyways. 

And you also said that any command of Jesus Christ is "all part and parcel the same thing."  What do you mean by this really?  Jesus also commanded.


John 15:12
12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.
(NAU)

Now although we try none of us do this so are we not saved?  We do not


Matt 22:37-39
37 And He said to him, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 "The second is like it, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
(NAU)

So since this is the greatest commandments are we not saved unless we obey Him completely? 

See the problem?  We can't work our way into Heaven because it is never enough.  We can't get the most important commandments so how can we get the many others?  So it can't be about keeping a certain set of rules for none would be saved. 

Also it seems you ignore the first half of the verse you quoted. "...He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life;..." John 3:36

I think this shows that it is through faith that where we have to obey to be saved is in that we have to have faith.  Remember we are speaking of john 3 here. 

Now some versions have "obey not" and some "believeth not" so which one is right?  I think both are but the part where we can't disobey God is that we have to obey God when He tells us to place our faith in Him.  But here is Strong's definition of the greek.

544  apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o);

from 545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):

KJV-- not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

So I think it is pretty clear that the disobedience spoke of here is the disobedience of not having faith. 

Then there is the quote of the great commision.  Which is a command of God.  But I do not see how the Great Commission proves that one HAS to be baptised in order to be saved.

Hope this helps. 

blackhawk

 

 

[LightBearer]

Blackhawk:


Your resoning is flawed.

We are all imperfect and can only do our very best to comply with Christs commands, and that is all he requires of us. But when one delibirately chooses Disobeys a command "Make desciples baptizing them" that's an entirely different matter. You are then applying your own standards of what is right and wrong and choosing for yourself what and what not to obey. After all, isn't that what Adam did.

 

[LightBearer]

Originally posted by eldermike
Lightbearer,

Have you ever considered that in the third Chapter of John Jesus was not trying to get people to obey Him but to know him, to know who He was and why He was there. Look at it again. I beleive you are adding something that is not there. Please don't rewrite scripture. "obey" is not in John 3:36.

AMERICAN STANDARD VERSION
John 3:36
“He that obeyeth not the son”

NEW LIVING TRANSLATION
John 3:36
“Those who don’t obey the son”

NEW REVISED STANDARD
John 3:36
“Whoever disobeys the son”

TODAYS ENGLISH VERSION
John 3:36
“Whoever disobeys the son”

To mention a few.