Why worry about the Ten Commandments, if you are disregarding the Sabbath? (2)

jochanaan said:

I have. Some good stuff there! And the Spirit, the Word and my own quickened mind and heart all agree that, first, setting aside one day in seven is a good thing, and second, as long as I'm doing this I might as well set aside the day the Lord originally set--not as dead law or to set limits on myself, but using this sacred time to grow ever closer to Him Who both saves and empowers me to live His life in a world that knows little of Him. Praise His Name, for He has both encouraged us to grow in grace and provided a delightful way to do so!

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I understand what you are saying. I have been taught........

Wavy said:

This post is filled with error, some of which I have refuted on another page.​

But without going into much detail, I want to point out three apparent errors in your post that really nullify your assertions about what you said being "words from God".​

(1) There was a point being made in Matthew. That is how the preservation of life and livelihood takes precedence over ceremonial observances.​

The disciples were hungry. They decided to pick grain to eat (not a violation of the sabbath as it is not work). But because of manmade Pharisaic dogma, they (the Pharisees they encountered) considered it wrong.​

So Christ gives the Pharisees and an example of how even actual biblical practices straight from the torah were broken for a greater good in circumstantial occurrences.​

The example of David eating the showbread that belonged only to the priest has nothing to do with eating on the sabbath, as you say. He's giving an example of life over ceremonial observances. David and his men were going to die. They needed food. So life took the greater importance in this case. His second example was how the priests "profane" the sabbath without actually violating it because they work as ministers to the entire nation. Hence their duties take precedence over what the sabbath allowed.​

Christ says he is greater than the temple. By doing so, he is establishing that even if the priests who minister in the temple do things that would otherwise be unlawful on the sabbath because their duty is more important, then how could they judge his disciples based off of tradition when he himself is even greater than they and the temple they serve in? (his point being that they don't have any qualms about these special cases, but are criticizing him and his disciples, hence they contradict themselves).​

He then quotes Hosea 6:6 (which talks about having the "knowledge of God", which is what they should have had to judge rightly in this case).​

[bible]Hosea 6:6[/bible]​

He concludes that he is the Lord of the sabbath (meaning he knows more than anyone what is a violation of the sabbath and what is not).​

He gives another perfect example after he leaves the fields and goes into the their synagogue. They asked him if it was lawful to heal a man on the sabbath (in reference to the man with the withered hand)​

He then uses the Hebraic concept of kal v'khomer (meaning "light and heavy" and is used to describe greater and lesser matters of importance) to answer them -- if they would work to help even a dumb sheep on the sabbath (light), how much more would you help a man on the sabbath (heavy)? Then he concludes that it is lawful to do good on the sabbath (not that it is free for you to choose whether or not you will observe it).​

And there is the point of the passage.​

(2) When you stated that "we are now to live everyday as unto the Lord". This was never not true (double negative, gotta love it). This assumes you were supposed to live "as unto" YHWH only on the sabbath before, but now we do so everyday. Unfortunately, this is not in scripture. So how we live "now" everyday is irrelevant to whether or not we obey the sabbath command. Not to mention that the entire nation of Israel in what you call the "Jewish Age" (can't find this in my bible either) was called to be priests:​

[bible]Exodus 19:6[/bible]​

They never used this as an excuse to disobey the sabbath, however, lol.​

(3) Your third and most devastating error (to your theology that is) is the argument that the sabbath was only for Israel.​

So was the new covenant. So was the greatest commandment. It begins with -- well, read it yourself:​

[bible]Deuteronomy 6:4-5[/bible]​

Messiah himself was for Israel:​

[bible]Matthew 15:24[/bible].​

But once we come to him, we are grafted into that Israelite olive tree...​

[bible]Romans 11:17[/bible]​

(see Jeremiah 11:16-17 to know for sure who the olive tree is)​

....and brought into the commonwealth of Israel:​

[bible]Ephesians 2:12-13[/bible]​

So even if we were not supposed to obey the sabbath, the "it was for the Jews" excuse is not a good one anyway.​

I got into more detail than I anticipated, but once you get going it's hard to stop sometimes, lol.​

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Nope, you are wrong! We all have the privacy of the priesthood, I will continue to believe my way and you have the right to believe your's. Have a nice day.

jochanaan said:

Well, then, linssue, since the Holy Spirit is the guide you would have us follow, I say (not as I hypothetically claimed in my earlier post; obviously such claims go against many Grace-based principles) that the Holy Spirit Himself, along with Scripture and Christian brothers I trust, have persuaded me to keep the seventh-day Sabbath, commonly called Saturday, holy unto the Lord, not working or doing merely my own pleasure on that day, but rather focusing all my being on God and His ways. My mind is settled. This is not against Grace, nor does it contradict the description of "spiritual fruit" that the Spirit engenders in us; it increases my love, my joy, my peace and well-being, and all the rest as enumerated in Galatians 5:22-23.

Judge me as you will (who are you to judge another of God's servants?), but this is my way of following the Spirit of God and acknowledging His Grace applied to me.

That is all I have to say for now. May God bless you, and all of us.

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I judge no one, THAT is the Lord's job. I am taught to worship EVERYDAY. Since the Lord gives us one day at a time, we are to give back one day at a time. My church has services everyday, and I have practiced this for over 30 years. Most christains would NOT do this, for I guess they believe the Lord is only entitled to get their worship one day a week. THIS is the problem with the sabbath, and the Lord know's this, and will keep account of those that do not give back "One day at a time". Have a nice day........God Bless you and your's.

linssue55 said:

Nope, you are wrong! We all have the privacy of the priesthood, I will continue to believe my way and you have the right to believe your's. Have a nice day.

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Care to point out my error? And it's not about who's way we believe. It's about what is right (whether or not you or me are correct).

linssue55 said:

I judge no one, THAT is the Lord's job. I am taught to worship EVERYDAY. Since the Lord gives us one day at a time, we are to give back one day at a time. My church has services everyday, and I have practiced this for over 30 years. Most christains would NOT do this, for I guess they believe the Lord is only entitled to get their worship one day a week. THIS is the problem with the sabbath, and the Lord know's this, and will keep account of those that do not give back "One day at a time". Have a nice day........God Bless you and your's.

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And yet you continue to argue off of the premise of error. There is no problem with the sabbath (Psalm 19:7-11).

Your "one day at a time" argument is getting old and centers around your opinion and/or feelings rather than the truth (John 17:17).

Simply put, the sabbath does not mean you can't worship on other days or do good on other days etc. This is the fallacy of your argument and the straw man you have built up in front of all who believe they should keep the sabbath.

Wavy said:

And yet you continue to argue off of the premise of error. There is no problem with the sabbath (Psalm 19:7-11).

Your "one day at a time" argument is getting old and centers around your opinion and/or feelings rather than the truth (John 17:17).

Simply put, the sabbath does not mean you can't worship on other days or do good on other days etc. This is the fallacy of your argument and the straw man you have built up in front of all who believe they should keep the sabbath.

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Well said

linssue55 said:

You are not understanding the verse. The sabbath was made for the Jews of the OT. We are the body of Christ....Christ is higher then the sabbath......therefore WE are higher than the sabbath.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Mark 2:25-26``And, He {Jesus} says to them, [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]"You have read, have you not, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]what David did when he had need and was hungry, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]he (David) and those with him? [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]26:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]How he {David} entered into the house of God [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]when Abiathar was high priest [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]and the 'loaves that were set forth' {artos - shewbread}, he ate > (David). .[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]which is absolutely not {ouk} lawful to eat except for the priests [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]and he also gave it to those who were with him?"[/FONT]​

God told no one that David was rebuked for eating on the Sabbath. Why? Because..........​

God commanded that man was to rest on the Sabbath as a blessing to him. Instead, many use it as a tool to force their will on others - 'you WILL NOT do this on a Sabbath' type thing. That is misusing God's Word. Next, in the Church Age, we are now to live 'everyday as unto the Lord'. That is a HIGHER law and better Way of life only available to "priests" - which we all are!}​

The Sabbath is set aside in the Church Age,

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Col. 2:16-17~~ [/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]16.~~Consequently, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]STOP allowing anyone to judge you in eating and drinking, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]or in the matter of a feast, or of the new month, or of the Sabbaths.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: This is refering to 'legalism'. Someone trying to tell you that you have to follow rituals of the Jewish Age.}[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]17~~ Which {rituals} kept on being a shadow[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]of those things about to come, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]but the reality is from the source of Christ.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: the Jewish Age rituals were 'shadows' of the reality that was and is Christ. The Jewish Age looked forward to the cross. The Church age looks back on the cross}.[/FONT]​

These are words from God......deny them, then you deny the written word.​

Believe what you wish, it is no concern of mine. I will say no more, I have given enough scripture. Toot-a-loo.​

​

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Wavy said:

Care to point out my error? And it's not about who's way we believe. It's about what is right (whether or not you or me are correct).

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Nope! Not interested in the least.......your negative volition is apparent enough for me to move on. I do not believe in beating a dead horse, and like I have said, what ANYONE believes in none of my business, this includes you. Life is too short, and I have a bible lesson to listen to, my time of worship. Good bye.

ThreeAM said:

The bible should be looked at as a whole not choped up and compartmentalized. Frankly Darby had no clue at how to ubderstand the scriptures. Notice that nobody really taught dispensaionalism prior to Darby. Dispenasationalism and futurism are to great errors taught by Darby.
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Who in the heck is Darby? Don't answer that I could care less.

Wrong! If you are at all familar with the OT, the "word" talked of dispensations wayyyy back then. I am sure you won't agree with this either, but here it is anyway.

Dispensations.......


Biblical history of mankind.....


1...Pre-Deluveon civilization......from Adam and Eve to the flood....Gen. 1-11
adam to Noah......fall, flood, Babel


2...Post Deluveon civilization.......
A...First half (Promise) Jewish age-Gen.12 thru Ex. 19, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.....Abrahamic Covenent.....
B...Second half.....Ex. 19 thru Malachi Gospels (-jn 13-17)....Moses....Law of Moses


3...The church age....(NOW) ....grace, Mystery Doctrine (present time).....Acts 2 thru Rev 5 Epistles.....Paul, Peter, John......Giving of Holy Spirit..1 Cor 6:19-20, Matt 3:11, John 14:17, Rom 5:5, Gal 3:2.


4...Rapture.....in a moment of time 1 Thes 4:13-18...saints with Christ in heaven, ie: the Bride....called up in the air to be with Him


5...Trial and tribulation....7 years..Rev 6-19....Anti-Christ......144,000 true believer Jews witnesses.
A...First 31/2 yrs. ....Religous Power....Political Power, 1-beast, 2-beast, beast makes false covenent with Israel...Isa 28:15-18........
B...Second 31/2 yrs..... political Power...Man of Sin (Satan) DEMANDS Worship ..2 Thes 2.....Israel Flees to mountains...matt 24:15-16.......Satan Cast out of Heaven....Rev 12:9.....Battle of Armageddon....the blood will run Bridle deep to horse......(Abomination of Desolation, ie. =Armageddon....2nd Advent Rev 14:11-15)


6...The Millenium...Christ (Kingdom) Rev 20... Perfect Environment..1000 yrs.
No more wars...no more poor...
At the end of Millenium...Satan is released from H-ell for a short period (months?)...Battle of GOG & Magog


7...Eternity Begins.....New Heaven and New Earth ....Great White Throne Judgement..... And Eternal H-ell.
Believers in etenity with Christ for Forever......

Un-believers with Satan in H-ell for Forever......

linssue55 said:

Who in the heck is Darby? Don't answer that I could care less. .

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You don't know who Darby is yet you support dispensationalism???? amazing


Dispensationalism as it is known today was generally UNKNOWN prior to Darby.

This is from www.wikipedia.org

Darby is noted in the theological world as the father of "dispensationalism," later made popular in the United States by Cyrus Scofield's Scofield Reference Bible. He originated the "secret rapture" theory wherein Christ will snatch away his true believers from this world without warning. Dispensationalist beliefs about the fate of the Jews and the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel put dispensationalists at the forefront of Christian Zionism.......

.....Born out of the restless religious environment in England and Ireland in the 1820s, dispensationalism is rooted in the Plymouth Brethren movement, especially the teachings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882). Darby built on a number of themes that were common among the more radical Calvinists in the Evangelical movement of the early 19th century, but he elaborated a more complex and complete system for interpreting the Bible than previous writers.
The Plymouth Brethren movement, essentially a reaction against the established Church of England and its ecclesiology, became known for its anti-denominational, anti-clerical, and anti-creedal stance. In 1848, the Plymouth Brethren split into an "Exclusive" group led by Darby and an "Open" group. Darby's views became dominant among the Exclusive Brethren, but were not widespread among Open Brethren until the 1870s or 1880s.

I am amazed that this thread is still going! I wonder how many times Chrisbot will appear in it. LOL.

woobadooba said:

I am amazed that this thread is still going! I wonder how many times Chrisbot will appear in it. LOL.

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Same here, I am amazed that it still keeps on going.

It seems that we are no closer to a solution than when it first started over 1,000 posts ago.

No one can come up with am answer to the problem.

Cliff2 said:

No one can come up with am answer to the problem.

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The answer is staring us in the face. It's just hard for some to accept.

jochanaan said:

The answer is staring us in the face. It's just hard for some to accept.

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Correct!

BrightCandle said:

Genesis 2, explodes the myth that the Sabbath was made only for the Jews.

Fact #1, there were no Jews in the Garden of Eden, when the first Sabbath was keep by Adam and Eve.

Fact #2, the weekly 7th day Sabbath was created before mankind sinned, therefore it is not a shadow of anything to come, as were the ceremonial laws and the sacrificial system that were given to Moses.

Fact #3, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rested on the Sabbath, along with the first human beings, Adam and Eve, according to Genesis 2.

In light of these facts do you still want to work on the Sabbath, when God said to rest on His holy day?

The Seventh Day, God Rests

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

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Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

M A N does not say J E W .

I honestly can't believe this thread is ongoing. Okay, here's a couple of questions for the SDA individuals who feel we are heretical for not going on Saturday to church:

1) What are you doing to further your ministry? How do you help your church out? Are you in a leadership position?

2) Have you ever lusted? Ever stolen anything? Ever lied? Been jealous? Missed one day of church? Ever cursed? Ever used the Lord's name in vain?

3) If you have never done one of those things, then you are lying. Therefore, to try and judge those of us who do not attend church on Saturday that we should not follow the Commandments is ridiculous.

KalEl76 said:

I honestly can't believe this thread is ongoing. Okay, here's a couple of questions for the SDA individuals who feel we are heretical for not going on Saturday to church:

1) What are you doing to further your ministry? How do you help your church out? Are you in a leadership position?

2) Have you ever lusted? Ever stolen anything? Ever lied? Been jealous? Missed one day of church? Ever cursed? Ever used the Lord's name in vain?

3) If you have never done one of those things, then you are lying. Therefore, to try and judge those of us who do not attend church on Saturday that we should not follow the Commandments is ridiculous.

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We are trying to inform you not judge you. Judgement is between you and God.