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RFK Adjusts Hepatitis B Vaccine Recommendations; Democrats Lose Their Minds

probinson

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I'm by no means an expert on VAERS, but health care professionals didn't ignore the VAERS reports on the COVID vaccine, as you are claiming they did. They go out and collect more data and determine if the reports are legitimate. The vast majority of those reports were no doubt determined to be not related to the vaccine. And this determination was made by health care professionals who go out and look at actual evidence.

I really wish that were true.

Also - COVID was a highly politicized pandemic.

Boy, was it ever!

It was also the most widespread pandemic to take place in the age of the internet - an age where false information spreads very rapidly. With those factors in mind, it is very much believable that we would see a spike in false/inaccurate reports in the VAERS system like had never been seem before. It was a global event unlike anything we have seen in recent history.

COVID vaccines should NEVER have been mandated. Even overlooking the physical harms that occurred, the cost of the loss of trust in public health was immense and may take decades to restore.
 
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probinson

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Oops. The only ones politicizing it were the leftists.


I saw this story yesterday at The Atlantic. The headline is clearly meant to be attention-grabbing. But WOW, what an admission! If you had suggested that a child could have died from the COVID vaccine just a few years ago, you would have been accused of spreading misinformation and censored. That the mainstream media now readily admits that children died from the COVID vaccine is honesty quite astounding. If COVID taught us anything, it's that the only thing that separates conspiracy and "misinformation" from truth is often just time.

But the blasé way that the article approaches this very serious issue is kind of like (my paraphrase)...

Well of course some children died. Them's the breaks. You win some, you lose some. Ah well. Hoory for mRNA!

Absent from that article is any mea culpa or retrospection that, hmm, maybe mandating vaccines for children to attend school was ill-advised, given that children were at an infinitesimal risk from COVID. It's almost like we just have to accept that mandating interventions absent evidence means that, yeah, sure, we're going to lose a child here and there. But SCIENCE!

It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. But the thing that concerns me the most is the lack of concern and the blind trust that so many people still have in the industry and those funded by them. They still truly believe that this is about public health. They can easily spot when Joe Schmo is grifting and making a buck or two on false claims from vaccines, but they are completely, utterly, and I believe in many cases willfully blind to the IMMENSE financial incentives driving our public health "recommendations".
 
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loveofourlord

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Why even have VAERS if the reaction is always to just discard it completely? You say it's to "track trends", but clearly you don't believe that since you say it can't be used as "proof of anything".

VAERS exists so that public health agencies can say we have a system for tracking vaccine injuries while summarily dismissing everything it contains.
it isn't proof, nor can it be used as proof, it's a, "Hmmmm okay suddenly an upshot of people having this kind of complication, lets see if related." and thats when you find out oh it isn't. Self reporting is unreliable as a source on it's own.
 
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MarkSB

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I really wish that were true.

And you have evidence which shows that incidents reported in the VAERS system aren't being investigated at all, I suppose?

Boy, was it ever!

I recall conservative Christians being one of the groups who most staunchly refused to wear masks, because it was their "right" not to do so. I suppose that's not politicizing in your book, though. No, that's not putting politics over the love or your neighbor at all, is it?

COVID vaccines should NEVER have been mandated. Even overlooking the physical harms that occurred, the cost of the loss of trust in public health was immense and may take decades to restore.

And what physical harms are those? Where is your evidence? I'm not saying that no harms occurred, but the only thing that has been presented are unvetted reports in VAERS. Anyone who cares about data integrity is going to consider that to be an unreliable source.
 
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MarkSB

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Oops. The only ones politicizing it were the leftists.


Do you have evidence of child deaths occurring from the COVID vaccine? Or just an article that says it "may" have happened?

I can't read the full article, because apparently I've read too many free articles from The Atlantic - but every other source says that no evidence of deaths was presented.
 
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LizaMarie

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Fear not. The health insurance companies are more than happy to continue covering this vaccine dose, despite there being no evidence of benefit to low-risk children.

Parents will still be able to get the hepatitis B vaccine for their children at no cost even though the US Centers for Disease and Control Prevention’s vaccine advisers recommended a major change to the immunization practice.

You know what I find really odd about this story? They say this:
The revised recommendation calls for mothers who test negative for the virus to consult with a doctor or other health care provider before having their babies vaccinated. This could create confusion and place additional hurdles in front of parents and result in fewer children being immunized.

So the new recommendation is, consult with your physician. Not don't get it. Not, it's harmful. Not any of the other nonsense the media has portrayed. Simply "consult with your physician". Apparently, people believe that consulting with your physician about medical interventions could create "confusion".

That statement is astounding. But it's not really all that surprising. If you've followed COVID and the vaccines that followed, it always made sense to "consult with your physician". But to avoid "confusion", they decided that they should just "recommend" it to everyone.

These recommendations are not evidence-based. They are based on convenience. What a weird place we've arrived at where simply recommending one to consult their physician before making a decision is now deemed "confusing".
Things really went south with COVID, I blame Trump who bungled it at first, to Biden who mandated the COVID vaccines. As someone else upthread said Covid got really politicized on both sides. I don't think the vaccines should have been mandated, and they were rushed out too fast. So while probably generally safe, people could be excused for not trusting them. I have not had a Covid shot or booster in almost 3 years and don't plan to for awhile.
Polio, MMR and DTAP and Hep B vaccines however have years of proven safety records, and are far safer than the diseases they prevent. Of course there are people who can't tolerate vaccines. I have a friend who can't take any vaccines.
 
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probinson

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And you have evidence which shows that incidents reported in the VAERS system aren't being investigated at all, I suppose?

How would you propose that I prove that someone is NOT doing something?

The evidence is in the way that vaccine injuries are constantly downplayed and marginalized. The evidence is in how the main response to bringing up VAERS as a data source is simply to dismiss it. Is that "proof"? Nope. But again, I don't know how you would expect anyone to provide definitive proof of something that is not happening.

I recall conservative Christians being one of the groups who most staunchly refused to wear masks, because it was their "right" not to do so. I suppose that's not politicizing in your book, though. No, that's not putting politics over the love or your neighbor at all, is it?

:rolleyes:

I honestly can't believe that in 2025, we're STILL talking about masking. There simply is no evidence that masking is efficacious for stopping or slowing respiratory disease spread. Masks were nothing more than a talisman that accomplished little more than giving fearful people a false sense of security.

Medical or surgical masks
Ten studies took place in the community, and two studies in healthcare workers. Compared with wearing no mask in the community studies only, wearing a mask may make little to no difference in how many people caught a flu-like illness/COVID-like illness (9 studies; 276,917 people); and probably makes little or no difference in how many people have flu/COVID confirmed by a laboratory test (6 studies; 13,919 people). Unwanted effects were rarely reported; discomfort was mentioned.
N95/P2 respirators
Four studies were in healthcare workers, and one small study was in the community. Compared with wearing medical or surgical masks, wearing N95/P2 respirators probably makes little to no difference in how many people have confirmed flu (5 studies; 8407 people); and may make little to no difference in how many people catch a flu-like illness (5 studies; 8407 people), or respiratory illness (3 studies; 7799 people). Unwanted effects were not well-reported; discomfort was mentioned.

And what physical harms are those? Where is your evidence? I'm not saying that no harms occurred, but the only thing that has been presented are unvetted reports in VAERS. Anyone who cares about data integrity is going to consider that to be an unreliable source.

I don't think anyone talking about masking in the context of loving ones neighbor cares one whit about "data integrity".
 
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probinson

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Things really went south with COVID, I blame Trump who bungled it at first, to Biden who mandated the COVID vaccines. As someone else upthread said Covid got really politicized on both sides. I don't think the vaccines should have been mandated, and they were rushed out too fast. So while probably generally safe, people could be excused for not trusting them. I have not had a Covid shot or booster in almost 3 years and don't plan to for awhile.

I had to get the COVID shot because my son was selected to perform at Carnegie Hall in February 2022, right at the height of the COVID insanity. Mandates were everywhere. I had very negative reactions to both doses of the COVID shots and I will NEVER get another one.

Polio, MMR and DTAP and Hep B vaccines however have years of proven safety records, and are far safer than the diseases they prevent. Of course there are people who can't tolerate vaccines. I have a friend who can't take any vaccines.

Mandates were ALWAYS going to breed distrust. Even a rank amateur like me could spot that coming a mile away. I said on this forum all the way back in early 2021 that what was at stake was trust in all vaccinations. Trust is key in public health. That trust was violated in spades during COVID.

People got a look behind the curtain at just how much control the pharmaceutical industry has over our healthcare. When booster shots are approved on the basis of increased antibody titers in eight mice and your top two vaccine regulators at the FDA resign in protest, something is very wrong. And then you start to wonder, if they're willing to forego evidence to approve these vaccines, which brought an immense financial windfall to the industry, what else are they willing to do? And if you start digging, you won't like what you find.
 
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DaisyDay

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Do you have evidence of child deaths occurring from the COVID vaccine?
Not definitively.
Or just an article that says it "may" have happened?
Yes, "may" have happened.
I can't read the full article, because apparently I've read too many free articles from The Atlantic - but every other source says that no evidence of deaths was presented.
From the article:
No public-health authorities deny that COVID shots can have some ill effects. Adverse reactions are possible with all medical interventions. The mRNA-based vaccines produced by Pfizer and Moderna, in particular, are known to cause myocarditis—inflammation of the heart—on rare occasions, especially in teenage boys and young men. The form of myocarditis that occurs after vaccination is typically far less severe than the one caused by viruses; for unclear reasons, mRNA-related cases have largely disappeared in recent years. But this condition can be deadly, and considering the hundreds of millions of mRNA doses that have been administered to Americans, even extraordinarily unlikely outcomes may well be inevitable.​
The article concludes:
The possibility—perhaps the likelihood—that a handful of vaccine-related deaths occurred and were downplayed by medical authorities does not undermine the fact that COVID vaccination, on the whole, has prevented death on a massive scale. Nor does it justify sweeping changes to vaccine regulations. Rather, it suggests the need for some targeted reforms, such as improvements to the country’s vaccine-adverse-event reporting system—and also tells us that a strategy of minimizing tragic outcomes, however rare, may not be the best way to protect a vital instrument of public health.​

There is evidence that the mRNA vaccines can cause myocarditis in young men, but at far lower rates than the infection does. There is new research on the mechanism at play and how it might be mitigated or even prevented.

Myocarditis is a rare but real Covid vaccine side effect. A new study sheds light on what might cause it
Results point to two immune signals, and possible methods to keep them from going awry
“I want to emphasize this is very, very rare. This study is purely to understand why. In those rare cases, what’s going on? People talk about it, and here we provide a mechanism,” said Joe Wu, director of Stanford Cardiovascular Institute and the study’s senior author.​
Billions of doses of mRNA vaccine have been administered worldwide against the SARS-CoV-2 virus, including in countries with large, centralized health systems, such as Canada, England, South Korea, and Israel. Data from those countries and the U.S. allowed researchers to spot cases of chest pain, shortness of breath, and palpitations in some recently vaccinated people. These symptoms, which were mostly mild, appear after about 7 out of every million first vaccine doses. The frequency rises to 31 cases out of every million second doses, and 60 out of every million doses among men under 30.


SARS-CoV-2 infection causes myocarditis at much higher rates than immunization, with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reporting 1,500 cases per million Covid-19 patients. Cases caused by infection also tend to be more severe than those induced by immunization.


While researchers initially hypothesized that vaccine-induced myocarditis might be caused by an allergic response to the shots or autoimmunity, more recent research has pointed to inflammatory proteins.[/url]

I don't know of any deaths caused by mRNA induced myocarditis, but I didn't search for it.
 
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Larniavc

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Science denialism. We have literally 3 decades of VAERS data showing deaths and other harm from Hep B vaccine
Hold on; I’ve had the Hep B jab. Why am I still alive?
 
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Larniavc

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The new recommendation aligns with much of the rest of the world, where they also do not vaccinate for Hep B at birth.
It does happen in the UK but only for high risk babies. Otherwise it’s a se of three at 6, 8 and 12 weeks.
 
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Larniavc

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MarkSB

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How would you propose that I prove that someone is NOT doing something?

By doing what most rational people do - investigate and evaluate evidence. If you're not doing that, how exactly are you formulating your beliefs? Just deciding what is real on a whim and running with it?

The CDC publishes the data which they get from VAERS investigations. You can find the data for 5-11 year olds here, which was published in 2021 shorty after the vaccines were introduced for that age group.

So the question remains - exactly what are you claiming here? Are you claiming that no investigations were done at all? Because the published data contradicts that notion. The data was doctored? What reason do you have to believe that?

I don't anticipate that I will continue with this discussion, because I know that reasoning with conspiracy theorists is a fruitless effort. When someone doesn't need to present evidence for their claims, they are functioning on a completely different plane of existence than most of the population.
 
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probinson

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The CDC publishes the data which they get from VAERS investigations. You can find the data for 5-11 year olds here, which was published in 2021 shorty after the vaccines were introduced for that age group.

Ah yes, MMWR. The same publication that claimed masking could reduce respiratory spread by more than 80%. Of course, the data for that "study" was ascertained by people self-reporting their masking practices and number of infections via a telephone survey, but the result was aligned with their narrative at the time, so MMWR went ahead and made a nifty infographic and published it.

I don't anticipate that I will continue with this discussion, because I know that reasoning with conspiracy theorists is a fruitless effort.

Well then, it was nice chatting.

Unfortunately, there absolutely is a conspiracy by the pharmaceutical industry to protect their financial interests. And unfortunately. It's not just theoretical. It's very real.

Our healthcare system isn’t about health—it’s about business.
And in this business, harm isn’t an accident. It’s built into the system.
The more I uncovered, the more I realized:
We aren’t just patients. We are customers.
And we are all trapped in Big Pharma’s spider web of influence.
 
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MarkSB

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I honestly can't believe that in 2025, we're STILL talking about masking. There simply is no evidence that masking is efficacious for stopping or slowing respiratory disease spread. Masks were nothing more than a talisman that accomplished little more than giving fearful people a false sense of security.

Medical or surgical masks
Ten studies took place in the community, and two studies in healthcare workers. Compared with wearing no mask in the community studies only, wearing a mask may make little to no difference in how many people caught a flu-like illness/COVID-like illness (9 studies; 276,917 people); and probably makes little or no difference in how many people have flu/COVID confirmed by a laboratory test (6 studies; 13,919 people). Unwanted effects were rarely reported; discomfort was mentioned.
N95/P2 respirators
Four studies were in healthcare workers, and one small study was in the community. Compared with wearing medical or surgical masks, wearing N95/P2 respirators probably makes little to no difference in how many people have confirmed flu (5 studies; 8407 people); and may make little to no difference in how many people catch a flu-like illness (5 studies; 8407 people), or respiratory illness (3 studies; 7799 people). Unwanted effects were not well-reported; discomfort was mentioned.

The metanalysis in the Cochrane review that you are citing has a number of flaws. But... if you have conspiracy theorist caliper confirmation bias, none of that matters.


I don't think anyone talking about masking in the context of loving ones neighbor cares one whit about "data integrity".


So cherry picking the studies that agree with your preconceived notions, and running with that.... is that the data integrity that I'm missing here?

Let's take the studies wholistically - even the ones which may have been poorly designed. There are a lot of studies (if I'm not mistaken) which say that high quality masks work to reduce transmission, and some that say they don't. Let's even be generous and call it a 50/50 split. A virus is circulating which results in death for some people - especially people with certainly preexisting conditions. Your position is that, even though the body of available evidence says that wearing a mask might prevent the spread of the virus to the vulnerable population, the prudent path for one who reveres God is to NOT wear the mask?

My question to you is - what exactly do you stand to lose by wearing the mask? Put aside the "righteous" protest against mask mandates... and forget they don't exist. Based solely on the basis of care for your neighbor, which is the more prudent choice, and why?
 
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probinson

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The metanalysis in the Cochrane review that you are citing has a number of flaws.

It does not. The Cochrane review has existed since 2007, and its findings have remain unchanged. Masking simply does not slow respiratory spread, and it doesn't matter if we're talking about paper masks or N95. It never has, it never will.

I highly recommend the Substack "Trust The Evidence", which is written by Carl Heneghan and Tom Jefferson. Tom is the lead author of the Cochrane masking review. You might find this article particularly interesting, as it addresses the "flaws" you cited above.

Over a year after social media influencer Zeynep Tufekci pressured Cochrane Editor Karla Soares-Weiser to put out a statement that smeared researchers and undermined Cochrane’s review that found masks have little benefit in stopping the spread of viruses, Soares Weiser released a second statement on Friday that announced she would not be making changes to the mask review.
Soares-Weiser’s reversal comes after Tufekci wrote a misleading March 2023 New York Times essay that disparaged the Cochrane mask review and falsely claimed she had “corrected” it. Bouncing off Tufekci’s spurious Times essay, author Laurie Garrett posted on X that the Cochrane authors were “bozos” who had confessed to “fraud.”
Suffice to say, there were no "flaws" in the Cochrane review. Despite blatant lies from everyone up to and including then Director of the CDC, Walensky, no changes were made to the review and it has not been "retracted". There was a coordinated smear campaign against the authors of this review because their data found that the mask mandates did not have a solid evidence base. The article above is a good place to start if you want to see exactly how "experts" react to data that doesn't support their narrative.

But... if you have conspiracy theorist caliper confirmation bias, none of that matters.

:rolleyes:

So cherry picking the studies that agree with your preconceived notions, and running with that.... is that the data integrity that I'm missing here?

That's what you're doing., This particular Cochrane review that has existed since 2007 is suddenly "flawed", in your opinion, for some reason. Also, you have to ignore scads of real-world evidence. There was literally nowhere that mask mandates were instituted where transmission was slowed. Not even in retrospect can you find the institution of a mandate and a correlating reduction of viral spread.

Let's take the studies wholistically - even the ones which may have been poorly designed. There are a lot of studies (if I'm not mistaken) which say that high quality masks work to reduce transmission, and some that say they don't.

Yes. There were tons of "studies" run on masking that supported the mask mandates, like the one I posted above. They gathered data by having people self-report in a telephone survey their masking habits and if they had COVID. Boy, that's some scientific rigor there! But no matter. It arrived that the "right" result, so they published it, and the media trumpeted it as if were the gospel truth.

Or how about the infamous CDC hairdresser study? Two hairdressers wore a mask and no one who they worked on got COVID. This is the foundation of the "science" of masking evidence. Methodology that would get you laughed out of a 5th grade science fair was all of a sudden the standard of evidence for the pandemic.

OTOH, you say that the Cochrane Review has "flaws", as compared to these astounding pieces of cow flop published int he CDC's MMWR. The irony is palpable.

Let's even be generous and call it a 50/50 split.

Are you aware of the evidence pyramid? Not every piece of evidence carries the same weight. Guess where the studies that found a benefit to masking sit in that pyramid?

A virus is circulating which results in death for some people

Yes. That's happening right now too. Why did people stop masking? There are always viruses circulation that will result in death for some people. You just don't hear about them 24/7, until the industry has a vaccine to sell you. Do you know how many respiratory viruses there are circulating. Yet we only ever hear about Flu, COVID and RSV. I suppose it's just a funny coincidence that those are also the viruses that have available vaccines.

The truth is, if you really believe in your altruistic stance that you're proposing here, you can NEVER stop masking. Not at any point. There are ALWAYS respiratory viruses floating around that could kill people. Always have been, always will be. So I hope you're "caring" for your neighbor by committing to masking every day and everywhere you go for the rest of your life.

Your position is that, even though the body of available evidence says that wearing a mask might prevent the spread of the virus to the vulnerable population,

That is not my position. My position is the body of available high-quality evidence says that wearing a mask does absolutely nothing to prevent, nor even slow, the spread of viruses.

the prudent path for one who reveres God is to NOT wear the mask?

I get that you've been convinced that masking is the ultimate altruistic gesture towards others, but it's simply not true.

My question to you is - what exactly do you stand to lose by wearing the mask?

Well for one thing, improper handling of PPE can actually increase your likelihood of infection. This is well-established, and "experts" warned of this at the beginning of the pandemic before every recommendation flipped almost overnight. Constantly touching your mask brings you in contact with viral particles that otherwise may have fallen harmlessly to the ground, but are now trapped in a mask that you carry with you everywhere you go. Did you watch people touching their masks during the pandemic? Did you see people crumple them up and put them in their purse or stuff them in their glove box, only to pull them back out again and put them back on their face? There are all sorts of downsides to wearing a mask in public.

Secondly, masks give people a false sense of security. By convincing people that they are now "safe": because someone has an ineffective security blanket across their mouth and nose, they are more likely to let down their guard. People who are truly at risk are now convinced that they can put themselves in high-risk situations that they may have otherwise avoided because they're wearing a mask. But it's a bit like telling someone that they'll be safe if they jump out of the airplane with a backpack that has no parachute in it. iIt might look good as you jump out of the plane, but you're in for a nasty surprise when you pull the rip cord.

Put aside the "righteous" protest against mask mandates... and forget they don't exist. Based solely on the basis of care for your neighbor, which is the more prudent choice, and why?

You've inadvertently hit the nail on the head for why people embraced mask mandates. It was never about evidence of benefit. Not only did the mask serve as a placebo for people who had been subject to relentless fear campaign, but it also made them feel good about themselves because they were "caring for others". They were "doing something". Unfortunately, that "something" they were doing was completely performative and had no real benefit.

Since you don't like the Cochrane review, how about this systematic review of masking by the CDC published in May 2020? I've emphasized the findings relevant to this discussion.

Face Masks
In our systematic review, we identified 10 RCTs that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the community from literature published during 1946–July 27, 2018. In pooled analysis, we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks (RR 0.78, 95% CI 0.51–1.20; I2 = 30%, p = 0.25) (Figure 2). One study evaluated the use of masks among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage and reported no major difference in the risk for laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infection in the control or mask group (33). Two studies in university settings assessed the effectiveness of face masks for primary protection by monitoring the incidence of laboratory-confirmed influenza among student hall residents for 5 months (9,10). The overall reduction in ILI or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies (9,10). Study designs in the 7 household studies were slightly different: 1 study provided face masks and P2 respirators for household contacts only (34), another study evaluated face mask use as a source control for infected persons only (35), and the remaining studies provided masks for the infected persons as well as their close contacts (1113,15,17). None of the household studies reported a significant reduction in secondary laboratory-confirmed influenza virus infections in the face mask group (1113,15,17,34,35). Most studies were underpowered because of limited sample size, and some studies also reported suboptimal adherence in the face mask group.
Disposable medical masks (also known as surgical masks) are loose-fitting devices that were designed to be worn by medical personnel to protect accidental contamination of patient wounds, and to protect the wearer against splashes or sprays of bodily fluids (36). There is limited evidence for their effectiveness in preventing influenza virus transmission either when worn by the infected person for source control or when worn by uninfected persons to reduce exposure. Our systematic review found no significant effect of face masks on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Also, just to reiterate what I said earlier, that study also says this:

Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission.
 
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