Do you keep the Sabbath? (poll)

[Hentenza]

Condemn and convict are two different topics. We are not speaking of conviction in Romans 8 but condemnation. It says, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Death being the condemnation. Because if we mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus, we shall live says Romans 8. For the Spirit of the Life Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and the wages of it, death that the righteousness of the Law of God that Paul delights in be fulfilled.

Ok I can agree with that.

By the Law is the knowledge of sin Romans 3. But the Spirit working on the heart convicts, Because the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance as Romans 2 states.

But since the law has been fulfilled (completed righteously) then so has its imparting the knowledge of sin externally. The law in essence declares that there is a difference between right and wrong. The law defines the nature of “out-law” conduct (1 John 3:4). The law points to a need for some method of justification since no one can keep the law perfectly (Galatians 3:10), and the law itself provides no ultimate remedy for violations or a way to repentance. Even in a perfect legal system, a broken law cannot be un-broken.

Through Christ redemptive sacrifice on the cross believers that were under the law have been released from the law. The gentiles were never under the Mosaic law but under the law of providence because God’s will governs and directs all actions in the universe.

So now the Holy Spirit gives us the knowledge of sin and the way to repentance. The result of Christ redemptive sacrifice is justification by the grace of God through faith not by works of the law and the second gift to the believer is the Holy Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

This is not a critical response and you are not factoring in the conditions of rest according to the 7th day of creation.

Comparing the 4th commandment with the 7th day of creation, we can mark differences.

Not according to Christ.

Mark 2:27 "The Sabbath was MADE For MANKIND not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" . Jesus speaks to the making of BOTH at Creation week.

And the Sabbath commandment of Ex 20:8-11 points explicitly back to Gen 2:2-3 when the weekly Sabbath was made holy during that same 7 day creation week when mankind was made.

How they are initiated is the big one, the 7th day of creation is ushered in by completed work

You skip over a lot of key details in your generalizations.

Gen 2 does not say "God rested and nothing else happened"

Rather it says God made the day holy, sanctified it, and Ex 20:11 says that makes the day binding on all mankind as God's holy day "The Holy day of the Lord" vs 10.

The 7th day observance based on the 4th commandment is ushered in by a weekly ritual

Not true.

The rest was there for mankind in Gen 2 "The Holy day of the Lord" to be kept holy by resting, and as Lev 23:2,3 point out , by worship,

The 4th commandment opens with "remember..." remember what?

Remember all the details in scripture you are leaving out of the Sabbath commandment as we see in Vs 10 and Vs 11 of that commandment

God does not say to Adam in Gen 2 "I rested and sanctified but you can't rest"

We need to pay attention to the text

 

[DamianWarS]

You are using your own reasoning, this is what I reject. No where in the Bible says this is what the Sabbath is for and we can just disregard God's clearly spoken and written Word. What He warns against doing Isa8:20

I accept what God commanded and trust when He said the Sabbath is made for man, it doesn't mean against man as some sadly teach.

Darkness is sin, untruth and unrighteousness, disobeying God's commandments is sin 1John3:4 James2:11, what Jesus is calling us out from if we hear His voice Joh3:19-21 Heb3:9-17 Obeying God's commandments they way He said because He is God is Truth Psa119:151, righteousness Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2 which His is everlasting Psa119:142 and reconciles through our love and faith in our Creator hearing His voice, doing what He asks because He is God and we trust Him. Rev22:14

The redemptive message is baked into the account. you yourself causally reference darkness as sin, so what then is the darkness of creation if not sin? what is the light spoken into darkness if not Christ? These are not made-up metaphors but biblically revealed. To start light into darkness is an extremely well-used metaphor used in the bible and indeed is rooted in creation (the references are numerous). Christ calls himself the light of the world (John 8:12, John 9:5). John 1 is also a parallel to the creation account itself, showing us that Christ is the light of the beginning. v4-5 "In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.". You're being careful and rejecting this (which would be silly) but refusing to comment on it seems like you're refusing to look at this using critical biblical revelation or taking the bible as a whole not isolated verses. But it's even more explicit still 2 Cor 4:6 "for God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ." This is direct biblical confirmation that the creation account is a parallel to the new creation. The "new creation" itself should be enough as an explicit reference to the [old] creation.

Heb 4 shows the rest is through faith not work, opening with (1) "...since the promise of entering his rest still stands..." (3) " Now we who have believed enter that rest..." So it is through belief we enter rest, not through observance. v3 continues "And yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world" so if the work is already finished, what is our role? merely to receive the rest but if decoupled from the work then the rest is only superficial; we must receive the completed work to also receive the rest. Hebrew 4 shows us this is through faith (belief) not through works (observance).

v6 "Therefore since it still remains for some to enter that rest, and since those who formerly had the good news proclaimed to them did not go in because of their disobedience" the context is addressing the disobedience of Israel (from Joshua referenced in v8) which resulting in them not entering the promised land (promise land is another 7th day/salvation/sabbath reference) but v10 pulls it all together "for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his." How does God enter rest? through completed work (this is explicit in Gen 2:2). If by entering God's rest is implicit God's work then the conditions of 7th day in Gen 2 are the parameters and completed work us shown to be a part of the rest and it cannot be decoupled as it can be when looking at an isolated form of the 4th commandment. Merely performing ritual rest every 7th day will not enter God's rest. It is not the ritual God is looking for but it must be from belief (v3) coupled with the completed work (v10). This is the gospel message. Gal 6:15 "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation." (this verse can be mirrored with 1 Cor 7:19 and Gal 5:6). This is decoupling the new creation with ritual circumcision which can broadly be seen as representative of ritual observance of the law, (certainly if you read of Galations, this is the message)

The creation account of Gen 1 and 2 has a redemptive meaning that would be fruitless to reject and it would be irresponsible if we do not include this in our sabbath day understanding. Sabbath is not just the 4th commandment/7th day isolated. We must view the bible as a whole; if we do not, we are only looking a sabbath in a vacuum without full revelation.

 

[linux.poet]

I appreciate the reply. But isn't there a big difference between one of the Chosen "Apostles of Christ", and a "Disciple" of Christ?

I wouldn’t split hairs. All of the Apostles, with the exception of Paul, were Disciples of Christ when Christ was on the earth. Paul has his conversion to authenticate his Apostleship, and he also has many other signs he performed. His Epistles are consistent with Christ’s teaching and the rest of the Scripture.

Apostle means "Ἀπόστολος" means "messenger, he that is sent". (Strongs) John the Baptist would have Also been an Apostle, Yes?

I would not view him as one, because he is not part of the Church due to his death before Christ’s death and resurrection. Those who came before Christ who believed in Him as “friends of the bridegroom” who are not part of the Church/Body of Christ proper (see Matthew 11:11, John is not part of the Kingdom of Heaven). The church had Apostles sent from Christ and has Disciples of Christ in the present.

Yes, they are gone, but their teaching, along with the Prophets God also sent, is still here.

Yes, the Bible contains the teaching of the Apostles.

I do wonder what you make of Hebrews 10:23-25:

Let’s hold firmly to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let’s consider how to encourage one another in love and good deeds, not abandoning our own meeting together, as is the habit of some people, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.

Hard to meet together with fellow Christians without sitting under the teaching of a pastor and submitting to church authority.

 

[linux.poet]

This is New Covenant teaching ....because sin is still and always will be the same. What changed in the NC is how we handle sins, not what sin itself is which is clearly shown.

I disagree with you on this. Sin is dynamic, a function of our relationship to God. The reason why breaking the Ten Commandments is sin for the unbeliever is that those commands are given to them to show that they cannot follow them. They also do not change because God’s holiness is immutable.

As believers in Christ, we are held to a higher standard than the Ten Commandments, which is the teachings and commands of Jesus. I stand before God every day in my inadequacy and awareness of my sin in the face of the Holy Standard Christ laid out in Matthew. I am under grace for this failing. That is what “under grace” means.

Do you not believe in the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 5:21-48? That takes the Ten Commandments and makes them more potent. Example:

21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not murder,’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be answerable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be answerable to the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be answerable to the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the [m]fiery hell. 23 Therefore, if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Come to good terms with your accuser quickly, while you are with him on the way to court, so that your accuser will not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you will not be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last quadrans.

Are we not Christians? Should we not follow the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ? The point of these commands is “to be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48) To fall short of God’s perfection is to sin. The fact that these enhancements follow certain Decalogue commands and commands in other parts of the Law is no accident.

When I accepted the Gospel I submitted to Christ as my authority, not the Decalogue or other Mosaic Laws. Incidentally, I do follow most of the Decalogue, but only insofar as Christ taught from it as a basis for what he wanted his Disciples to do and learn.

The definition of sin is simple: to do what God tells us not to do or to not do what God says to do.

This is New Covenant teaching ....because sin is still and always will be the same.

This doesn’t contradict my definition of sin, because said definition also doesn’t change.

Sin is breaking any of the Ten Commandments.

This doesn’t contradict my definition of sin either since the Ten Commandments are all God’s commands.

Sin is also defined as anything not of faith Rom14:23 and faith does not void the law it establishes it. Rom3:31

This definition of sin also does not contradict my definition because faith is trust in a God we cannot see. What does not procede from faith is sin because when we don’t trust God we act against Him to test him, and thus we commit sin. Trust in God will result in obeying God’s commands.

1 John3:4 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

This is a mistranslation of that verse.

4 Everyone who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

If you translate the verse properly, it does not contradict the definition of sin that I posted previously. Laws are made of commands, so if you reject God’s commands you reject God’s Law and created order and sin against God. If you reject all laws, you reject God’s law, for God is a God of Law and Order.

It is. There is nothing to preclude God from updating His commands to us at any time in response to our success or failure in dealing with Him. All of His commands are perfect and holy, but not all are sufficient to deal with our fallen condition.

Yes, but I would want a Text before saying only worshipping the God of Creation went from being a blessing to a curse.

Keeping the commands of God is not a curse, even though my fallen nervous system might try to convince me otherwise. Why post this? Is not following the commands of God how we worship Him? This statement seems to contradict the entire context of the presented argument.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

Do we not also have to obey the directions of other humans whom we are in relationship with? Bosses, husbands, friends, parents, siblings, pastors, etc. In order to be in relationship with someone in real life, we have to be willing to work with them and follow their commands. We are all God’s sons and daughters.

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons and daughters of God.

For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

Imagine a little boy learning to repair a car with his daddy. The little boy has to follow his dad’s commands in order to learn the task, because that’s how our nervous systems work. But it is not a burden to the little boy because he trusts his father. In the same way, we trust God and His commands to retrain our fallen brains to be like Christ, Our Savior and Lord. We are conformed to the image of His Son. (Romans 8:24)

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

This refers to the teachings of Christ, not the Decalogue.

Romans 14 deals with matters of personal choice, not matters of divine law.

Right, and the face that observance of days is on the personal choice list means that whether I observe the Sabbath or not is a personal choice, since it’s a day.

We also have verses like where there is no law, there is no sin Rom4:15 so sin is very much breaking the law of God.

If there were no commands of the Lord to govern our behavior, there would be no sin by us refusing to obey them. However, these days we obey Christ out of our love for Him and trust in Him.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I disagree with you on this. Sin is dynamic, a function of our relationship to God. The reason why breaking the Ten Commandments is sin for the unbeliever is that those commands are given to them to show that they cannot follow them. They also do not change because God’s holiness is immutable.

I understand, but you are not disagreeing with me, its what the plain Text says and Jesus....all quoting from the same Law. Why the Ten Commandments sits under God's mercy seat, it defines what sin is, its God's standard of Judgement and righteousness. He never left that to our own understanding


1 John3:4 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
James 2:11 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law

Sin is breaking any of the Ten Commandments.

Why Paul said:
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Mat5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’

Jesus did not come to destroy His Law and foretold He would make His Laws greater which is exactly what He did, He gets to the heart of the matter right where sin begins, if the heart is changed God's commandments would be kept. If not (breaking the least of these commandments and He quotes from the Ten to show us which commandments He speaks of) one would be in fear of sin and danger of judgement according to Jesus

22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’[f] shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, [g]‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
27 “You have heard that it was said [i]to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


God said they can be followed and He has a people who overcomes

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; (saved) here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Which reconciles us back to God. Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

As believers in Christ, we are held to a higher standard than the Ten Commandments, which is the teachings and commands of Jesus. I stand before God every day in my inadequacy and awareness of my sin in the face of the Holy Standard Christ laid out in Matthew. I am under grace for this failing. That is what “under grace” means.

If everyone was keeping the Ten Commandments the way Jesus explained in Mat5:17-30 there would be no more sin in the world. Just peace and harmony

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Do you not believe in the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 5:21-48? That takes the Ten Commandments and makes them more potent.

Yes, this is exactly what I have been saying but the context starts from Mat5:17 and if we believed there would not be a jot or tittle removed from God's laws including the 4th commandment. I mean who really has the power to edit what God wrote, His own Testimony Exo31:18 thats under His mercy seat in heaven Exo25:21 Rev15:5 Rev11:19

Example:

Are we not Christians? Should we not follow the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ? The point of these commands is “to be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48) To fall short of God’s perfection is to sin. The fact that these enhancements follow certain Decalogue commands and commands in other parts of the Law is no accident.

Why we are told this about the Ten Commandments as they were written and spoken by the God of the Universe, it is His own Testimony and shows how we love God and how we love each other and they are very broad just as Jesus explained from them. Psa119:96

Psa 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

God is perfect, His Law is perfect. Jesus lived them out perfectly keeping even the 4th commandment and is our example we are told to follow.

1 Peter 2: 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”;

Jesus never sinned or broke any of the commandments, He kept them and told us to as well if we abide in Him

John15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

When I accepted the Gospel I submitted to Christ as my authority, not the Decalogue or other Mosaic Laws. Incidentally, I do follow most of the Decalogue, but only insofar as Christ taught from it as a basis for what he wanted his Disciples to do and learn.
\

This doesn't make sense to me. When you were growing up, did your parents give you any rules? Did you show that you submitted to your parents by loving them and doing what they asked, or doing what you wanted instead?

We cannot separate the Ten Commandments from God. He gave them, they are His standard of right and wrong Psa119:172 on how He wants us to live holy lives. He asked us to keep them if we love Him. So if we submit ourselves to Christ as our authority, would we not do what He asks?

Jesus in His own words tells us what we are like when we hear His voice, but do not believe Him to do it.

Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

Should we not build our house on the Rock which is Christ? He said we actually need to do what He asks, not just hear.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

The Scriptures in my opinion cannot be more clearer on this subject. Hearing God, but not submitting to His will, which God wrote in our hearts and minds- His laws Psa40:8 Heb8:10 2Cor3:3 , because God does not want us to sin. Look at each one of the Ten Commandments and please tell me which one of these commandments is leading us away from God. Exo20:1-17 instead of to Him. I mean really read each of them. The first 4 commandments show us how to love God. God's name is in each one of these commandments. Read the last 6 commandments how we are to love our neighbor and read Mat5:19-30 to show what it means to keep them. Please than tell me which commandment does God not want us to keep or that is not for our own good. This is the Testimony of God Exo31:18 what the entire Bible hangs on- Love. Love to God Love to man, never did it go undefined, but this is God's standard of righteousness Psa119:172 and Truth Psa119:151


1 John 2:29
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousnessis born of Him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousnessis righteous, just as He is righteous.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

This definition of sin also does not contradict my definition because faith is trust in a God we cannot see. What does not procede from faith is sin because when we don’t trust God we act against Him to test him, and thus we commit sin. Trust in God will result in obeying God’s commands.

Yes, I said anything that is not of faith is sin, but Scriptures are clear faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom3:31 and sin is breaking the law as shown.

This is a mistranslation of that verse.

According to the Greek word its what it literally translates into

1John3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

ἀνομία anomía, an-om-ee'-ah; from G459; illegality, i.e. violation of law or (genitive case) wickedness:—iniquity, × transgress(-ion of) the law, unrighteousness.

Its the same word Jesus used here:

Mat7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

If you translate the verse properly, it does not contradict the definition of sin that I posted previously. Laws are made of commands, so if you reject God’s commands you reject God’s Law and created order and sin against God. If you reject all laws, you reject God’s law, for God is a God of Law and Order.

Sorry I am not following your argument, you previously stated sin is not breaking God's laws and indicating the Ten Commandments were more suggestions. If you believed what you are stating I do not think would have made the very last statement in your post.

Keeping the commands of God is not a curse, even though my fallen nervous system might try to convince me otherwise. Why post this? Is not following the commands of God how we worship Him? This statement seems to contradict the entire context of the presented argument.

Previously I said

The law that is perfect Psa19:7 cannot be the same law that is contrary and against Col2:14KJV.

Your answer:

It is

Why I asked this question the first commandment of the Ten Commandments because if we can't get through the first commandment its not going to apply to the other 9. If one of them goes, they all go James2:11

So I asked when does only worshipping the God of Creation ever show as being a curse in the Bible.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do we not also have to obey the directions of other humans whom we are in relationship with? Bosses, husbands, friends, parents, siblings, pastors, etc. In order to be in relationship with someone in real life, we have to be willing to work with them and follow their commands. We are all God’s sons and daughters.

Yes, but God always said our loyalty needs to be to Him over brother, father, mother sister. Mat10:37 So while we are to submit to the rules of this world, not when it comes to violating one of God's commandments. We can clearly see this principle right from the Ten Commandments in Daniel and his friends in the book of Daniel. There is a reason these stories are in the prophetic book of Daniel.

Imagine a little boy learning to repair a car with his daddy. The little boy has to follow his dad’s commands in order to learn the task, because that’s how our nervous systems work. But it is not a burden to the little boy because he trusts his father. In the same way, we trust God and His commands to retrain our fallen brains to be like Christ, Our Savior and Lord. We are conformed to the image of His Son. (Romans 8:24)

Than I do not understand the argument against obeying the Ten Commandments the way God asked if we love Him. They literally make up His character- perfect Psa19:7 holy, just righteous Rom7:12 Psa119:172 Truth Psa119:151

This refers to the teachings of Christ, not the Decalogue.

Jesus taught on the Ten Commandments warned us against not keeping them Mat5:19-30 Mark7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 15:3-14 Mark2:27-28 Mark3:4 John15:10 John14:15 Mat19:17-19 Its the same thing He said almost verbatim in the Ten Exo20:6 Jesus is the Who gave the Ten Commandments and said He came to magnify His Laws, not destroy Isa42:21 Mat5:17-19 so are you claiming Jesus saying If you love My, keep My commandments does not include the commandment to only worship Him, not not vain His name, to not bow to idols, or not keep His holy Sabbath day? Not the commandments He warned breaking the least of and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and Judgment? Mat5:19-30 It does not include not stealing from our neighbor, not honoring our father or mother or not coveting? Not keeping the ones Jesus said when we go away from we worship Him in vain? But if we want to enter into life we keep them Mat19:17-19 and are what guards the gates of heaven Rev22:14 Are you sure about this?

Right, and the face that observance of days is on the personal choice list means that whether I observe the Sabbath or not is a personal choice.

Sure it is, God will not force anyone to obey Him, but does ask If you love Me, keep My commandments. John14:15 Exo20:6

The Sabbath is a commandment of God. Exo20:8-11 Deut4:13 It comes with the power of God's sanctification Eze20:12 and blessings Isa59:2. Sunday is a tradition of man, not one of God's personally spoken and written commandments. It was never a day God sanctified or blessed so comes with man's power not God's and is nothing more than a tradition of man.

This is what the Bible says....

Col 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Mat 7:7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men

Life is about choices. I wish you well and pray we all make the right ones.

 

[DamianWarS]

Not as implicit in the first commandment but rather as explicit in Lev 11.
Acts 10 Peter affirms the point that it is still followed at the time of his vision about Cornelius
In Gen 7 it is fully followed at the time of the flood.

In Is 66 it is still referenced at the coming of Christ.

So it's the 10 plus some others. How do we know which laws made the list and which didn't? A lot of detail is put on the 10 as to their importance but since it goes beyond the 10 then what is the measure? No one outlines a heuristic as to how we determine which of the law we continue to obverse and which we don't except some sort of because-I-said-so sentiment then I'm accused of not being biblical. Sure, then go ahead and back your own chopped up law biblically.

Circumcision was never given to all mankind in Gen, or any part of the OT and is explicitly stated as not required for gentiles in Acts 15
So while it is a good health practice there is no moral obligation for it on gentiles.

Neither was Sabbath law

 

[Studyman]

I wouldn’t split hairs. All of the Apostles, with the exception of Paul, were Disciples of Christ when Christ was on the earth. Paul has his conversion to authenticate his Apostleship, and he also has many other signs he performed. His Epistles are consistent with Christ’s teaching and the rest of the Scripture.

I would not view him as one, because he is not part of the Church due to his death before Christ’s death and resurrection. Those who came before Christ who believed in Him as “friends of the bridegroom” who are not part of the Church/Body of Christ proper (see Matthew 11:11, John is not part of the Kingdom of Heaven). The church had Apostles sent from Christ and has Disciples of Christ in the present.

Yes, the Bible contains the teaching of the Apostles.

I do wonder what you make of Hebrews 10:23-25:



Hard to meet together with fellow Christians without sitting under the teaching of a pastor and submitting to church authority.

Unless of course, it is a JW church, or MacArthur's church, or the Mormon church, or the SDA church, clearly you don't believe we should submit to the Authority of their religion.

I don't believe the Bible promotes the popular religious philosophy that Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, David, Shadrack, Daniel, Zacharias, Simeon and Anna were not part of the Church of God, AKA "Body of Christ" that the Pharisees and their father's persecuted since Abel. I couldn't submit to the authority of a church that promotes such a teaching. It seems to me God's Church has always been filled with men of Faith. The Priesthood has changed, and is no longer corruptible. But the Church of God the Priesthood resided over, has never changed. It is made up of folks with the same mindset as Abel and Abraham and David who clearly had the mind of Christ. I think Hebrews 10 confirms this.

Hebrews 10: 21 And having an high priest "over the house of God";

22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised

24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works (which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin (Transgress God's Law) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Thanks for the frank discussion. It has always been fascinating to me how the difference in religious beliefs align perfectly with the religious sect a person adopts. For me, the Path Jesus told me to strive to enter is not all Kumbaya and ice cream. It wasn't for David, Daniel or Shadrack. And it certainly wasn't for Paul.

2 Tim. 4: 16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

Religious tradition has always been a powerful influence of this world. Imagine if the world were as zealous for God's Judgments, Commandments and Statutes, like Jesus was, instead of being divided into hundreds of religious sects and businesses. Personally I'm grateful that they are all not united, like in the Tower of Babel. Isn't that what the story was really about?

Anyway, food for thought.

 

[HIM]

Paul is explaining to the Gentiles that the Blood of goats and the Priesthood "Works of the Law" is not why they received the Spirit of understanding. It was their obedience to God, as Peter also teaches, which is called "Faith". When the same Gospel was given to the Israelites, most of them didn't believe God, and subsequently didn't "obey Him". Here is what God said about them.

You are missing the fact that Paul mentions Circumcision in respect to Titus not being circumcised, Judeans not living as the Gentiles live but as do the Jews, and being separate from those who are not Jews in chapter 2 of Galatians. All of these are laws which are within the Book of the Law that is mentioned in verse 3:10. Ergo the law mentioned that does not justify is the Book of the Law. As it is written, the just (the righteous) live out of faith vs 11, the faith that establishes the law. The faith Abraham had. For the word, the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it. That is the word of faith that we preach and must hear. The Law, the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law are in our hearts and minds. He has given us His Spirit to cause us to walk in in His way. For the written Law on Stone and parchment made no one righteous, not one. But the Lord has said, I will circumcise thy heart and the heart of thy seed. The circumcision made without hands, cutting away the sins of the flesh, that we can serve the living God. Not by the letter, the knowledge of sin. But by the Spirit. For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life..

For that which was on the outside, the Law on stone and parchment is within. We are new creature begotten by the Word of truth. So Let us not forget what manner man we are now, or are to be, and be a doer of the Word that we are begotten of and not a hearer only deceiving ourselves. For we have conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Begotten by the Word of truth. Jam 1 and Rom 8

My friend and friends there are some truths shared in the post that you might not of took noticed to. I will repost it again and highlight one in particular which should have raised questions from you.

The obeying the voice of God is of the hearing of faith that Paul speaks of in Galatians 3. We know this to be true because verse 6 starts with the words “even as” when the spirit speaks of Abraham believing God. And all this is being said in respect to Paul speaking of us being dead but alive, yet not us but the Christ living in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith OF the Son of God who gave himself for us. And this Faith is how we are justified. Because we Know that a man is not justified (made righteous) by the works of the law, if not (except) by (through) the faith of Jesus Christ, as verse 2:16 says

Works of the law is what we do. That is the context. Circumcision, not fellowshipping with the heathen, and not living as they do are all mentioned in respect to these works and all are laws within the Book of the Law which is mentioned within the same context in chapter 3. Couple that with verse 17 where it mentions if we are found sinners while we seek to be justified, made righteous through Christ, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid it says! This tells us two things. For one this justification is much more than a cleansing from what we done. It is so much more. For it is Christ in us ministering to our hearts and minds, our every being to comply with His Spirit.

How do we know? Because it says if we are found sinners during this justification is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid we made ourselves transgressors!

The goal here through Christ is sinlessness. Which is the only righteousness in God's eyes. For it is written, He that does righteousness is righteous even as He is righteous. He that sins is of the devil. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested. That He might destroy the works of the Devil. Verse 16 says we believe into Christ that we might be made righteous by the faith of Christ. For faith establishes the law as Romans 3 states. This is the context and is missed by all due bad translations and poor exegesis. We believe into Jesus Christ that we might be justified, made righteous through the Faith of Jesus Christ. For the Just shall live out of this faith.

How do we know that verse16 is to be translated this way. Because verse 20 concurs when it says I am dead but alive yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the Life I now live in the flesh; I live by the faith OF the Son of God who gave himself for me. Couple this with vers 17 where if it explicitly states, if righteousness, not justification. If righteousness came by the Law then Christ died in vain, for nothing. Hence why verse 16 should be translated, a man is not justified (made righteous) by the works of the law, if not (except) through the faith OF Jesus Christ, even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified (made righteous) through the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. For the Just shall live out of this faith of Christ. And this faith of Christ establishes the Law.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified (made righteous) by the works of the law, if not (except) by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed into Jesus Christ, that we might be justified (made righteous) through the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified (made righteous) IN Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


To be under the Law means to be under it's tutorage, for it is called our school master. But we are no longer under the schoolmaster that was to bring us to Christ and the righteousness of the faith that is of Christ if we are IN Christ and living through Christ and the faith He instills. For as many of us who have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ. And we are all children of God through the Faith in Christ and live according to this faith. Just as Abraham who did not have the School master, the Book of the Law but lived in accordance through the faith that establishes the Law, that the righteous live by. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, Scott or studyman: for we are all one in Christ Jesus living by the faith of Christ. Not by the school master, the Book of the Law, but by Faith.



Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God through the faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



We are not under the Law, the Book of the Law, the school master. For if righteousness came by the law, the Book of the Law Christ died in vain. For those who desire to be under the School master, the Book of the Law for righteousness, do you not hear it? This of the old Covenant of Sinia which gendereth bondage. For the knowledge of sin and the sacrificial system never made anyone righteous. For he that commits sin is a servant to it.
And there is only one cure for that. And that is the New Covenant through Christ and the Faith He offers. This faith speaks on this wise, say not in your heart, bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. But say, the Word. the Law is in our hearts and in our mouths. THIS IS THE FAITH in which we preach We are new creation in Christ Jesus, Not of the letter, of tablets of stone and parchment, but of the Spirit that we do it. This is the faith in which we preach. Born of the Spirit, for He was the firstborn among many brethren. The new ministry, not of the letter, for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth Life. Not that our sufficiency is of ourselves. But our sufficiency is of God. Who has made us abled ministers of the New with the Law in our hearts and minds through His Spirit. That the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled in us. Who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law Gal 5:18. But if we are sinning then the Law is for us and we are still under it and have not come to Christ in His fullness. For we know that the Law is not for the righteous man in Christ but for the ungodly and for sinners the Spirit shares in 1 Tim:8-10.


1Tim 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Tim 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

 

[HIM]

So it's the 10 plus some others. How do we know which laws made the list and which didn't? A lot of detail is put on the 10 as to their importance but since it goes beyond the 10 then what is the measure? No one outlines a heuristic as to how we determine which of the law we continue to obverse and which we don't except some sort of because-I-said-so sentiment then I'm accused of not being biblical. Sure, then go ahead and back your own chopped up law biblically.

Deut 29:1 is the first the new Covenant is mentioned. This the Same as what Jeremiah prophesied in chapter 31.

Deut 30 goes into details about this New Covenant. Verse 6 states that the Lord our God will circumcise our hearts to serve Him. Verses 10-14 tell us what it is that is in our hearts. He says the Word, the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law are not far from us. They are in our hearts and mouths so that we do them. This is paraphrased in Romans 10:6-8. There it adds that this word in our hearts and mouths is the faith in which we preach. This the faith the Just, the righteous live by that establishes the Law, the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law. Take note that the Judgements are not included in this description. But the Sabbath being one of the commandments, by proxy is.

As a side note since it is the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law that is the word that is in our hearts. This explains why Jeremiah when he prophesied this at a later date due to the lack of faith in Israel. He said that it was to be the Law in our hearts. Any one hearing this throughout the ages until Christ would have seen this as being the Book of the Law and not just the commandments as many purport.

 

[HIM]

Condemn and convict are two different topics. We are not speaking of conviction in Romans 8 but condemnation. It says, there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Death being the condemnation. Because if we mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus, we shall live if not we die says Romans 8. For the Spirit of the Life Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and the wages of it, death that the righteousness of the Law of God that Paul delights in be fulfilled.

Ok I can agree with that.

Praise God! Glad to hear it!

By the Law is the knowledge of sin Romans 3. But the Spirit working on the heart convicts, Because the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance as Romans 2 states.

But since the law has been fulfilled (completed righteously) then so has its imparting the knowledge of sin externally. The law in essence declares that there is a difference between right and wrong. The law defines the nature of “out-law” conduct (1 John 3:4). The law points to a need for some method of justification since no one can keep the law perfectly (Galatians 3:10), and the law itself provides no ultimate remedy for violations or a way to repentance. Even in a perfect legal system, a broken law cannot be un-broken.

Through Christ redemptive sacrifice on the cross believers that were under the law have been released from the law. The gentiles were never under the Mosaic law but under the law of providence because God’s will governs and directs all actions in the universe.

So now the Holy Spirit gives us the knowledge of sin and the way to repentance. The result of Christ redemptive sacrifice is justification by the grace of God through faith not by works of the law and the second gift to the believer is the Holy Spirit.

Hey there, What you might be forgetting here is in Paul's explanation of the Gospel to all who be in Rome that he says, that by the Law is the knowledge of sin in 3:23 and that he would not have known sin but by the Law 7:7. These are spoken of in the present and historic present tense respectively. He also says in Romans 7 that he delights in the Law of God in his explanation of the law, the one that is the power sin has over him working all manner of concupiscence incapacitating from doing the good that he would in his members. As Jesus said he that commits sin as a slave to it. John 8

And in His speaking of this law of sin and the consequences of it, death he shares that we been set free from it through the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus that the righteousness of the Law, the law of God in which he delights to be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus.

Mat 5:17? Is that what you are referring to when you say, "But since the law has been fulfilled"?

If so then we have the rest of the sermon to deal with. As a matter of fact Jesus continues and says immediately that are righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the pharisees. And that anyone who teaches or breaks one of the least of these commandments they shalll be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven All this said right after He states that not one jot or tittle pass from the Law until all has been fulfilled.

All has not been fulfilled friend.

How do we know? Because He has not returned to establish the New Heaven and New earth. Couple that with what is here in regard to Romans. And 1 Tim 1:8-10 where Paul also says the Law is for the sinner and one must come up with a different conclusion that you are putting forward here.

 

[Fervent]

All has not been fulfilled friend.

Then why did Jesus declare "it is finished"?

 

[HIM]

Then why did Jesus declare "it is finished"?

It wasn't in respect to all the law and Prophets. He has not returned with His angels to gather the elect and sin, death and tears are still in this world. The earth and heaven were not destroyed and all that is in it. And the City of God that has been prepared for us is not here. Therefore all has not been fulfilled.

 

[Fervent]

It wasn't in respect to all the law and Prophets. He has not returned with His angels to gather the elect and sin, death and tears are still in this world. The earth and heaven were not destroyed and all that is in it. And the City of God that has been prepared for us is not here. Therefore all has not been fulfilled.

What do you suspect the law and the prophets were pointing towards, and what was explained to the disciples on the road to Emmaus? What was it that was finished?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

John 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

Mat 25:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split

Jesus gaining control over this world that was hijacked by Satan. The Priesthood going from earthy to Jesus, the end of animal sacrifices for sins what was predicted as they could never really take away the stain of sins Heb10:1-10 Heb9:10-15

Dan 9:27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

What He did not destroy was the Law or Prophets including the one of His Second Coming where He promises a world of no more tears, no more sorrows, no more murder and He will be forevermore with His people, which has yet to be fulfilled. As long as Jesus has not come in the clouds, not a jot or tittle can pass from His laws.

 

[HIM]

What do you suspect the law and the prophets were pointing towards, and what was explained to the disciples on the road to Emmaus? What was it that was finished?

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The all wasn't in respect to all the law and Prophets being fulfilled in regard to himself. Because He has not returned with His angels to gather the elect and sin, death and tears are still in this world. The earth and heaven were not destroyed and all that is in it. And the City of God that has been prepared for us is not here. Therefore all has not been fulfilled.

Couple that with what was share about Romans.

What you might be forgetting here is in Paul's explanation of the Gospel to all who be in Rome that he says, that by the Law is the knowledge of sin in 3:23 and that he would not have known sin but by the Law 7:7. These are spoken of in the present and historic present tense respectively. He also says in Romans 7 that he delights in the Law of God in his explanation of the law, the one that is the power sin has over him working all manner of concupiscence incapacitating from doing the good that he would in his members. As Jesus said he that commits sin as a slave to it. John 8

And in His speaking of this law of sin and the consequences of it, death he shares that we been set free from it through the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus that the righteousness of the Law, the law of God in which he delights to be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus.

Mat 5:17? Is that what you are referring to when you say, "But since the law has been fulfilled"?

If so then we have the rest of the sermon to deal with. As a matter of fact Jesus continues and says immediately that are righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the pharisees. And that anyone who teaches or breaks one of the least of these commandments they shalll be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven All this said right after He states that not one jot or tittle pass from the Law until all has been fulfilled.

All has not been fulfilled friend.

How do we know? Because He has not returned to establish the New Heaven and New earth. Couple that with what is here in regard to Romans. And 1 Tim 1:8-10 where Paul also says the Law is for the sinner and one must come up with a different conclusion that you are putting forward here.

 

[Fervent]

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

The all wasn't in respect to all the law and Prophets being fulfilled in regard to himself. Because He has not returned with His angels to gather the elect and sin, death and tears are still in this world. The earth and heaven were not destroyed and all that is in it. And the City of God that has been prepared for us is not here. Therefore all has not been fulfilled.

"Moses and the prophets" is the law and the prophets, and he explained all the scriptures the things concerning Himself. What could possibly have been left out, if He explained all things concerning Himself?

Couple that with what was share about Romans.

What you might be forgetting here is in Paul's explanation of the Gospel to all who be in Rome that he says, that by the Law is the knowledge of sin in 3:23 and that he would not have known sin but by the Law 7:7. These are spoken of in the present and historic present tense respectively. He also says in Romans 7 that he delights in the Law of God in his explanation of the law, the one that is the power sin has over him working all manner of concupiscence incapacitating from doing the good that he would in his members. As Jesus said he that commits sin as a slave to it. John 8

Romans isn't really relevant to Matthew, which is why I didn't address it. What is finished depends on the context, and what in Matthew is it that requires being finished?

And in His speaking of this law of sin and the consequences of it, death he shares that we been set free from it through the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus that the righteousness of the Law, the law of God in which he delights to be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus.

The "law and the prophets" are not the law of God, it's a reference to the Torah and the Nevi'im.

Mat 5:17? Is that what you are referring to when you say, "But since the law has been fulfilled"?

If so then we have the rest of the sermon to deal with. As a matter of fact Jesus continues and says immediately that are righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the pharisees. And that anyone who teaches or breaks one of the least of these commandments they shalll be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven All this said right after He states that not one jot or tittle pass from the Law until all has been fulfilled.

And how can our righteousness exceed the Pharisees, except by being God's own righteousness?

All has not been fulfilled friend.

So you claim, but the context of Matthew says otherwise.

How do we know? Because He has not returned to establish the New Heaven and New earth. Couple that with what is here in regard to Romans. And 1 Tim 1:8-10 where Paul also says the Law is for the sinner and one must come up with a different conclusion that you are putting forward here.

That is not spelled out in the "law and the Prophets" or required for the law and the Prophets to be fulfilled.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If all was fulfilled at the Cross, no reason for verse 19

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Heaven and earth are still here...

Therefore...

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It effects our status in heaven, not at the Cross, we were not even born then.

Why we have this at His Second Coming, because God expects His people to be keeping His commandments

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Fervent]

If all was fulfilled at the Cross, no reason for verse 19

Mat 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one [b]jot or one [c]tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Heaven and earth are still here...

Therefore...

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

It effects our status in heaven, not at the Cross, we were not even born then.

Why this says this at His Second Coming, because God expects His people to be keeping His commandments

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Again you seem to not recognize the context involved, because the "heaven nd earth" is a repetition of the testamonial partners to the Mosaic covernant. So it is simply a further identification of what the "all" has in its scope. What is telling is neither of you is addressing what it is that Jesus was referring to in His statement, instead simply insisting on what you believe He wasn't referring to.