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Why do people hate ICE...

Hans Blaster

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Basically there are two main positions on Immigration law. Those who want safety and secuirty of borders but also law and order in society. Then there are the radical Marxist ideologues who want open borders and defund the police as they believe there should be no borders and law and order is oppression.
Oh come on. I've been to your country and its border and there were no guards there at all. Just unending salty water surrounding your island. Not a guard or fence in sight.

Reading ahead, you live in a weird ideological world. I have no idea what sorts of propaganda you are ingesting. Let's drop in a few comments...
They oppose government power to enforce laws and want a free for all in the name of a DEI utopia. Pie in the sky stuff.
Or as it was when I was a kid, soft drink ads ("I'd like to buy the world a coke" and "I'm a Pepper") and cheezy Superbowl halftime shows.
Its often decends into violence because if we look at all the groups who have this ideology they end up using terror to achieve the destruction of the percieved oppressors.
LOL. We could look at the dystopian chaos of today's protests (sorry there wasn't any), or we could look at the 200 year (probably longer) history of anti-immigrant violence in my country (the one we are talking about, rather than your country).

ICE is seen as an arm of the oppressor Trump who is a Nazi and fascists that must be stopped. Just applying the normal law enforcement that any rational society would apply to keep their borders safe is deemed as oppression and therefore this must be met with terror.
ICE doesn't act like normal police. They dress like Proud Boys on their way to the Capitol. They show up in moving vans like Patriot Front. Whether their use of brutality is like normal police, I leave to your evaluation.
Its more or less the same ideology as Islamists. Except rather than a Caliphate and Sharia law or bringing about Allahs rule. The Marxists ideologues want a Socialist utopia of some sort where all outcomes are equal. BUt both percieve the world as there being oppressors and infidels that must be stopped with violence and terror.

They see the world as oppressors and victims so every action against the percieved oppressed which includes terrorist groups and harden criminals and organisations is seen as oppression and must be met with terror.

They have the perfect army in that many are already criminals, gangs, organised crime and terror groups that are utilising the deluded western ideologues who fall for all this ideological thinking. The two have some weird cojoining like we see with groups like Queers for Palestine and Hamas. Its a strange phenomena.
This is an incredibly weird impression of the opposition to ICE operations. Where do you get these notions?
But their common hate for all things western, whites, Jews and Christians unites them.
That must explain why Jewish groups, Christian clergy, and loads of white people have been regularly seen at anti-ICE protests.
 
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ViaCrucis

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130 of those 170 were arrested for obstructing or assault. Not for being suspected illegals.

I.e. being there, dissenting, disagreeing.

413037DDN4L._AC_.jpg



-CryptoLutheran
 
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Oh come on. I've been to your country and its border and there were no guards there at all. Just unending salty water surrounding your island. Not a guard or fence in sight.
Two obvious things you overlooked. One Australia's land mass does not border another nation. Anyone who tries to come will have to navigate dangerous seas. That's a sort of barrier itself. But we also have very good coast surveillance.

Two unlike the US we had a strong conservative government implement tough border security by stopping any boats coming in and either returning them or relocating them to other nations in the areas for processing. This actually stopped the illegal trade and deterred the illegal trade.

When the opposition Party got in which would be the equivelant of the Dems they kept the same policy unlike in the US where they are fighting the governments policies. This has maintain safe and secure borders for the most part for over a decade now.

Australia has a generous immigration policy for those who come legally. We are actually a nation of immigrants. But you have to have controlled borders and immigration nowadays with all the crime and terror but also economically.
Reading ahead, you live in a weird ideological world. I have no idea what sorts of propaganda you are ingesting. Let's drop in a few comments...

Or as it was when I was a kid, soft drink ads ("I'd like to buy the world a coke" and "I'm a Pepper") and cheezy Superbowl halftime shows.
What on earth are you going on about lol. It sounds like you are creating this world lol.
LOL. We could look at the dystopian chaos of today's protests (sorry there wasn't any), or we could look at the 200 year (probably longer) history of anti-immigrant violence in my country (the one we are talking about, rather than your country).
I really don't know what your point is. You started off on the wrong foot above with the assumptions made about my country. So maybe thats go something to do with it.
ICE doesn't act like normal police. They dress like Proud Boys on their way to the Capitol. They show up in moving vans like Patriot Front. Whether their use of brutality is like normal police, I leave to your evaluation.
Hum all I can say is that policing depends on the situation. Though we don't have ICE agents we do have specialised response agents who are trained in terror combating. Which is like a war zone sometimes. So there are different levels of response.

What is happening in the US is happening in Europe and even Britain. I don't know what the answer is.

I can understand that police abuse can happen and the fear of some who believe that cracking down on violence or crime is like a dictator State.

But I also understand that if the violence and crime is getting out of hand and to a point where its actually a public safety issue then the use of tougher policing is necessary.

Its like anything. If you allow things to get out of hand and control then any stepping in can seem like controlling itself. But it gets to that point when people don't put in those measures to begin with and actually help create the situation with poor management and lack of action where needed.
This is an incredibly weird impression of the opposition to ICE operations. Where do you get these notions?
Actually its more weird that you don't see this. The first obvious similarity is the willingness to use violence and terror. Both are using violence and terror for their cause.

Why are Antifa shooting up ICE buildings and agents. Why are other individuals rising up at the moment and shooting to ICE. Why are others attacking them with violence.

Why is there a general rise in violence. Its still a continuation of the same mentality before the election for these radicals. Is violence and murder a legitimised way to deal with that which people disagree.

Wednesday’s shooting is just the latest in a series of attacks that appear to target ICE facilities and officers since the agency ramped up controversial mass arrests and deportations under Trump.

According to a statement earlier this week from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), ICE officials are experiencing “a more than 1,000 percent increase in assaults”. This includes: vehicles being used as weapons, driving towards ICE officials, and online “doxing” campaigns (revealing someone’s personal details and address) against ICE officials and their families.


With this peddling of hate and violence how long before agents or police are gunned down. Or their families attacked. Is that ok.
That must explain why Jewish groups, Christian clergy, and loads of white people have been regularly seen at anti-ICE protests.
Jewish groups. They have been the most targeted thanks to this radical mentality that violence is ok to use against opponents. Its very Marxist and you can't see this. This was the basic idea. That in rising up against the oppressors violence was a legitimate means.

For the past 10 years or longer western nations have been cultivating such ideas. This is now the end result of it spilling into the streets. Its happening all over the world. NOt just in the Islamist nations but western nations. And you can't see it.

No Jews, and Christians should be very afraid of what is coming.

A New Era of Conflict and Violence
Globally, the absolute number of war deaths has been declining since 1946. And yet, conflict and violence are currently on the rise, with many conflicts today waged between non-state actors such as political militias, criminal, and international terrorist groups. Unresolved regional tensions, a breakdown in the rule of law, absent or co-opted state institutions, illicit economic gain, and the scarcity of resources exacerbated by climate change, have become dominant drivers of conflict.


In 2016, more countries experienced violent conflict than at any point in almost 30 years.

I'd say its got much, much worse since 2016.
 
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camille70

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130 of those 170 were arrested for obstructing or assault. Not for being suspected illegals.

It sounds like 50 of those arrested were released without charges.

There was a recent court case ordering agents to use body cams. I'm highly in favor of that.

But basically Americans are rarely being detained as illegals. Even 20 of the Americans picked up were kids who were with illegal parents. Which is a LEGITIMATE AND LEGAL thing to do.

So all total, there have been 20 American adults picked up in ICE raids on illegals. Pretty miniscule. And under the circumstances understandable.

That's being used as a pretext.
The next paragraph:

These cases have often wilted under scrutiny. In nearly 50 instances that we have identified so far, charges have never been filed or the cases were dismissed. Our count found a handful of citizens have pleaded guilty, mostly to misdemeanors.
 
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DaisyDay

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The picture of an 8-year-old handcuffed by ICE is fake and was created using artificial intelligence
. It was generated by a user of Grok, an AI creation tool.
Fact-checkers identified the following details indicating the image was AI-generated:
  • The girl's left shoulder and the ICE agent's ear appear distorted.
  • The fabric textures and background details are overly stylized or inconsistent.
  • The image was not published by any reputable news outlet.
The user who created the image told the fact-checking site Snopes that their prompt was: "generate an image of Police ICE agents aggressively dragging Latino children crying out of a 2nd grade classroom".
Source: Google
This is incorrect. The fake picture isn't this one (it's this one), but this one isn't what it says it is.


Video shows 27-year-old detained by police, not child arrested by ICE

This video was taken on 1 April and is actually of a 27-year-old woman being detained for jaywalking - an offence of illegally crossing a road, according to Clark County Sheriff’s Office in Washington state.

Officers spotted the woman running across a busy junction and mistakenly thought she was a child, they said in a Facebook post.

The woman was briefly detained after she provided a name which did not return any records, the sheriff said. She was released with a verbal warning after her identity was confirmed.

...US media have reported multiple cases of children being detained by federal law enforcement since the beginning of Trump’s latest crackdown on illegal immigration.​

The fog of war?
 
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rjs330

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That's being used as a pretext.
The next paragraph:

These cases have often wilted under scrutiny. In nearly 50 instances that we have identified so far, charges have never been filed or the cases were dismissed. Our count found a handful of citizens have pleaded guilty, mostly to misdemeanors.
Yes, I left nothing out. 80 of them were not dismissed. 50 were.

But the whole point was about Americans being picked up as possible illegals. And it turns out it is a VERY rare circumstance. And its an understandable one when a raid occurs. If you are hanging round illegals, you'll probably get picked up with them. It will get sorted out and you'll go home.

If you as an American get arrested for obstructing or assault thats completely different than being picked up as an illegal.

ICE needs to do a MUCH better job of substantiating their cases. I seriously doubt 50 out of 130 were illegitimate arrests. I bet ICE totally failed to document their cases properly. They need body cams and they need better documentation. At quite frankly its patently stupid to arrest someone and then not charge them.

LE often detains someone to determine if they have committed a crime. Detaining is not an arrest. Is this article referring to detention as arrest? Were all 50 of those people booked and later released? Much information us missing here and a lot of assumptions are being made based upon people's anti-ICE bias.

I prefer to have the actual facts surrounding each case before making a judgement call.
 
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camille70

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Yes, I left nothing out. 80 of them were not dismissed. 50 were.

But the whole point was about Americans being picked up as possible illegals. And it turns out it is a VERY rare circumstance. And its an understandable one when a raid occurs. If you are hanging round illegals, you'll probably get picked up with them. It will get sorted out and you'll go home.

If you as an American get arrested for obstructing or assault thats completely different than being picked up as an illegal.

ICE needs to do a MUCH better job of substantiating their cases. I seriously doubt 50 out of 130 were illegitimate arrests. I bet ICE totally failed to document their cases properly. They need body cams and they need better documentation. At quite frankly its patently stupid to arrest someone and then not charge them.

LE often detains someone to determine if they have committed a crime. Detaining is not an arrest. Is this article referring to detention as arrest? Were all 50 of those people booked and later released? Much information us missing here and a lot of assumptions are being made based upon people's anti-ICE bias.

I prefer to have the actual facts surrounding each case before making a judgement call.

It's happened across several administrations but since the current one doesn't believe immigrants have due process rights, Americans are in much more danger because of willfull indifference. If someone isn’t entitled to due process, they aren't given an opportunity to prove they are citizens and belong here.


Spanning both Obama administrations, an NPR investigation found, immigration authorities asked local authorities to detain about 700 Americans. Meanwhile, a U.S. Government Accountability Office report found that immigration authorities asked to hold roughly 600 likely citizens during Trump’s first term. The GAO also found that Trump actually deported about 70 likely citizens.

The GAO report did not get into any individual cases. But lawsuits brought against federal immigration agencies detail dozens of cases where plaintiffs received a settlement.

When local deputies in Pierce County, Washington, arrested Carlos Rios on suspicion of drunken driving in 2019, not even the fact that he had his U.S. passport could convince the deputies — or the ICE agents who took him into federal custody — that he was a citizen.

Rios, who immigrated from Mexico in the 1980s and became a citizen in 2000, often carried his passport with him in case he picked up a welding job on a Coast Guard ship or a commercial fishing job that took him into international waters. But no one listened to him when Rios insisted repeatedly that he was a citizen and begged Pierce County jail officials and ICE officers to check his bag. Rios ended up being held for a week. ICE did not comment on the case.

Rios received a $125,000 settlement but is still haunted by his time in detention.
 
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But no one listened to him when Rios insisted repeatedly that he was a citizen and begged Pierce County jail officials and ICE officers to check his bag. Rios ended up being held for a week. ICE did not comment on the case.

Rios received a $125,000 settlement but is still haunted by his time in detention.
Im glad he got money for it. To me it is inexcusable to hold a US citizen for days. Especially if he has a US passport. I am a naturalized citizen and had to prove I was one to get my passport. There is NO EXCUSE for holding a citizen with a passport that long. Being picked up isnt the problem. Being held for days is. I have my citizenship papers at home. I could produce it in a matter of hours if I had to have someone go get it for me. I can see it taking a day if you rounded up with a bunch of illegals claiming to be citizens. It may take a little time to work through it.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Two obvious things you overlooked. One Australia's land mass does not border another nation. Anyone who tries to come will have to navigate dangerous seas. That's a sort of barrier itself. But we also have very good coast surveillance.
I literally told you that I knew you lived on an island and that's why you are clueless regarding "borders".
Two unlike the US we had a strong conservative government implement tough border security by stopping any boats coming in and either returning them or relocating them to other nations in the areas for processing. This actually stopped the illegal trade and deterred the illegal trade.

When the opposition Party got in which would be the equivelant of the Dems they kept the same policy unlike in the US where they are fighting the governments policies. This has maintain safe and secure borders for the most part for over a decade now.

Australia has a generous immigration policy for those who come legally. We are actually a nation of immigrants. But you have to have controlled borders and immigration nowadays with all the crime and terror but also economically.
Once the Tasmanians were dealt with.
What on earth are you going on about lol. It sounds like you are creating this world lol.
This is the problem, Steve. You want to play around in American politics and you don't understand basic cultural references that would be known to *anyone* your age in my country. Let me summarize it for you -- the goals of the DEI you decry were the subjects of actual advertising campaigns from soft drink companies (Coke-a-Cola, Dr. Pepper) in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow it has become "bad". (I wonder why...)
I really don't know what your point is. You started off on the wrong foot above with the assumptions made about my country. So maybe thats go something to do with it.
As I stated, I know it is an island. You wrote of anti-ICE violence and I pointed out that the streets were filled with non-violent protesters. In contrast group violence against immigrants (not immigration officers) has been a fixture of American culture for 2 centuries. I'm not sure how this is hard to comprehend. Perhaps it is that your assumptions on this thread are completely disconnected from reality.
Hum all I can say is that policing depends on the situation. Though we don't have ICE agents we do have specialised response agents who are trained in terror combating. Which is like a war zone sometimes. So there are different levels of response.
Places where unauthorized and deportable immigrants are located are not war zones, nor are they terrorists.
What is happening in the US is happening in Europe and even Britain. I don't know what the answer is.
The answer is for ICE to stop being so violent.
I can understand that police abuse can happen and the fear of some who believe that cracking down on violence or crime is like a dictator State.

But I also understand that if the violence and crime is getting out of hand and to a point where its actually a public safety issue then the use of tougher policing is necessary.
It is ICE that is committing the violence.
Its like anything. If you allow things to get out of hand and control then any stepping in can seem like controlling itself. But it gets to that point when people don't put in those measures to begin with and actually help create the situation with poor management and lack of action where needed.
It is ICE that is committing the violence.
Actually its more weird that you don't see this. The first obvious similarity is the willingness to use violence and terror. Both are using violence and terror for their cause.
It is ICE that is committing the violence.

Why are Antifa shooting up ICE buildings and agents. Why are other individuals rising up at the moment and shooting to ICE. Why are others attacking them with violence.
It is ICE that is committing the violence. "Antifa" hasn't attacked anyone.
Why is there a general rise in violence. Its still a continuation of the same mentality before the election for these radicals. Is violence and murder a legitimised way to deal with that which people disagree.
It is ICE that is committing the violence.
Wednesday’s shooting is just the latest in a series of attacks that appear to target ICE facilities and officers since the agency ramped up controversial mass arrests and deportations under Trump.

According to a statement earlier this week from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), ICE officials are experiencing “a more than 1,000 percent increase in assaults”. This includes: vehicles being used as weapons, driving towards ICE officials, and online “doxing” campaigns (revealing someone’s personal details and address) against ICE officials and their families.
We're talking about America, Steve. All nuts are gun nuts.
Paxton is a thug.
With this peddling of hate and violence how long before agents or police are gunned down. Or their families attacked. Is that ok.

Jewish groups. They have been the most targeted thanks to this radical mentality that violence is ok to use against opponents. Its very Marxist and you can't see this. This was the basic idea. That in rising up against the oppressors violence was a legitimate means.

For the past 10 years or longer western nations have been cultivating such ideas. This is now the end result of it spilling into the streets. Its happening all over the world. NOt just in the Islamist nations but western nations. And you can't see it.
You don't actually read what I write, do you? Just typing random thoughts after what I wrote, eh?
No Jews, and Christians should be very afraid of what is coming.
What is "coming" Steve?
A New Era of Conflict and Violence
Globally, the absolute number of war deaths has been declining since 1946. And yet, conflict and violence are currently on the rise, with many conflicts today waged between non-state actors such as political militias, criminal, and international terrorist groups. Unresolved regional tensions, a breakdown in the rule of law, absent or co-opted state institutions, illicit economic gain, and the scarcity of resources exacerbated by climate change, have become dominant drivers of conflict.


In 2016, more countries experienced violent conflict than at any point in almost 30 years.

I'd say its got much, much worse since 2016.
Who trusts the UN?
 
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Fired Justice Department lawyer says he refused to lie in the Abrego Garcia case


The “Presumption of Regularity” in Trump Administration Litigation
 
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The case for open borders

An excellent sampling of worthless propaganda. But utterly worthless in an actual conversation that involves real human beings and what those real human beings actually believe.

When you actually sit down and talk with people about what they actually think, feel, and believe, let us know.

Until then, all you have is toilet paper arguments.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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An excellent sampling of worthless propaganda. But utterly worthless in an actual conversation that involves real human beings and what those real human beings actually believe.

When you actually sit down and talk with people about what they actually think, feel, and believe, let us know.

Until then, all you have is toilet paper arguments.

-CryptoLutheran
Do you believe in open borders. Or having some laws and regulations that can control and process people before they enter another nation.
 
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rjs330

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This is the problem, Steve. You want to play around in American politics and you don't understand basic cultural references that would be known to *anyone* your age in my country.
I dont see you saying stuff like this to other people posting on thos site who are from other countries. Why not?

Could it be because they agree with your point of view.
Let me summarize it for you -- the goals of the DEI you decry were the subjects of actual advertising campaigns from soft drink companies (Coke-a-Cola, Dr. Pepper) in the 1970s and 80s. Somehow it has become "bad". (I wonder why...)
It became bad when it was no longer needed and it was discovered that it literally became a discriminatory process. And it was being used as a club to beat white people over the head from being a bunch of racists.
The answer is for ICE to stop being so violent.
No the answer is for people to leave ICE alone and let them do their job instead of trying to obstruct them every way possible. Including being violent towards them.
It is ICE that is committing the violence.
No its not.
We're talking about America, Steve. All nuts are gun nuts.
And these nuts appear to be leftist gun nuts who are violent toward ICE for doing their jobs.
Paxton is a thug.
No he's not. Its the radical leftists who are the thugs and its his job to stop them.
Who trusts the UN?
Well.I don't. But I dont need to trust rhe UN when I can see for myself what's going on.
 
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rjs330

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Do you believe in open borders. Or having some laws and regulations that can control and process people before they enter another nation.
Steve, it is a rarity for people to support open borders. Because most view open borders narrowly as people coming and going as they please with no laws or barriers for doing so. And that is true.

What most liberals and progressives seem to believe by the things they spouse is ALMOST open borders.

You seemed it constantly in the desire to stop ICE from picking people up who are here illegally. They don't like the methodology. How many timea have we heard that an illegal is here and doing work and not being a criminal, which means rhey should be allowed to stay. In essence thats an open borders policy. If one can sneak in and keep their head down and their nose clean then they should be allowed to stay. An almost open border policy. If you get in and you arent a criminal, then oly oly oxen free.

Then ther are the asylum seekers. Granting asylum is for very specific reasons. Yet so many on the liberal side talk about how crappy rhe country is where those people come from, as if that is a legit reason to stay. And we are cruel and uncaring if we send them back. In essence an almost open border policy.

Bottom line appears to be that only criminals from other countries should be kept out. Everyone else should be allowed in especially if they are from a poorer country.

Not really open borders, but almost.
 
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camille70

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Steve, it is a rarity for people to support open borders. Because most view open borders narrowly as people coming and going as they please with no laws or barriers for doing so. And that is true.

What most liberals and progressives seem to believe by the things they spouse is ALMOST open borders.

You seemed it constantly in the desire to stop ICE from picking people up who are here illegally. They don't like the methodology. How many timea have we heard that an illegal is here and doing work and not being a criminal, which means rhey should be allowed to stay. In essence thats an open borders policy. If one can sneak in and keep their head down and their nose clean then they should be allowed to stay. An almost open border policy. If you get in and you arent a criminal, then oly oly oxen free.

Then ther are the asylum seekers. Granting asylum is for very specific reasons. Yet so many on the liberal side talk about how crappy rhe country is where those people come from, as if that is a legit reason to stay. And we are cruel and uncaring if we send them back. In essence an almost open border policy.

Bottom line appears to be that only criminals from other countries should be kept out. Everyone else should be allowed in especially if they are from a poorer country.

Not really open borders, but almost.

Open borders is a republican talking point. Not reality on the ground.
 
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Trump's immigration crackdown is setting deadly records

Posted for the information, not the snarky conclusion at the end.
 
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Steve, it is a rarity for people to support open borders. Because most view open borders narrowly as people coming and going as they please with no laws or barriers for doing so. And that is true.

What most liberals and progressives seem to believe by the things they spouse is ALMOST open borders.

You seemed it constantly in the desire to stop ICE from picking people up who are here illegally. They don't like the methodology. How many timea have we heard that an illegal is here and doing work and not being a criminal, which means rhey should be allowed to stay. In essence thats an open borders policy. If one can sneak in and keep their head down and their nose clean then they should be allowed to stay. An almost open border policy. If you get in and you arent a criminal, then oly oly oxen free.

Then ther are the asylum seekers. Granting asylum is for very specific reasons. Yet so many on the liberal side talk about how crappy rhe country is where those people come from, as if that is a legit reason to stay. And we are cruel and uncaring if we send them back. In essence an almost open border policy.

Bottom line appears to be that only criminals from other countries should be kept out. Everyone else should be allowed in especially if they are from a poorer country.

Not really open borders, but almost.
No matter how many people we let in we aren’t making a dent in the number of people in the world who live in poverty. Those people need to be helped where they are. We can’t take everyone and you’re correct that seems to be the goal
 
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stevevw

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Steve, it is a rarity for people to support open borders. Because most view open borders narrowly as people coming and going as they please with no laws or barriers for doing so. And that is true.

What most liberals and progressives seem to believe by the things they spouse is ALMOST open borders.

You seemed it constantly in the desire to stop ICE from picking people up who are here illegally. They don't like the methodology. How many timea have we heard that an illegal is here and doing work and not being a criminal, which means rhey should be allowed to stay. In essence thats an open borders policy. If one can sneak in and keep their head down and their nose clean then they should be allowed to stay. An almost open border policy. If you get in and you arent a criminal, then oly oly oxen free.
I think idealy most people want a world where people can mix and get along and be happy and theres no race or man made borders. Almost like a heaven on earth. This is an inherent belief we have as humans in that we know God and are made in His image and like creation itself long for Gods Kingdom to come about to eleviate this fallen world and its suffering.

To some extent this was Dr Kings dream, for the 'Beloved Community' which was the manifestation of a community of people that lived as one in Christ as an individual does. All sharing one mind and spirit. But in reality we are a fallen world and this will not happen on earth. There is evil in this world.

I mean look at the early church. They insultated themselves from the wider society and world. They were aliens in their own land. Alieans in the world.
Then ther are the asylum seekers. Granting asylum is for very specific reasons. Yet so many on the liberal side talk about how crappy rhe country is where those people come from, as if that is a legit reason to stay. And we are cruel and uncaring if we send them back. In essence an almost open border policy.
We can understand the empathy and its so hard in todays world to see others suffer and not help. But I think in reality many want to help but not in their own backyards. Not at their own expense and its easy for activists to get morally outraged at other peoples plights from an ivory tower. Often when asked if they would actually give room up in their own homes or neighbourhoods they want no part.

And this is really the point. Christ says that we should help the needy as in the Good Samaritan. That we give the shirt of our backs if needed. That we give that extra beyond what we can give.

This would transform the world if everyone did this in the west. Or at least setup situations in their own nations that would go along way to changing things. But we don't want to go that far. We want the best of both worlds. Keep our material comforts while moralising about others who are struggling.

I say if you really want this Kingdom on earth then give most of what you have up even to the point of making yourself struggle. Put yourself on their level and even lift them up above you. The west has a gross amount of stuff and waste ect they could give up.

Thats not to deny those who are already suffering withing the western nations. Charity begins at home. But get the head and spirit right first be united in putting others before yourself fullstop. This is the only way any sort of just Kingdom can be established. But as per human nature this will never happen.
Bottom line appears to be that only criminals from other countries should be kept out. Everyone else should be allowed in especially if they are from a poorer country.

Not really open borders, but almost.
Western nations should have a generous immigration program as they are in a better position. Like the family member that helps out the relative going through hard times. But done properly. We just don't let our relies or friend gate crash our homes and then crash in our living rooms.

But better still the ongoing struggle of trying to get these nations of hugh potential to just be normal. Be free from crazy dictators and mismangagement and corruption. Many beautiful nations suffering that could lift their standards with some simple economic and good governance.

The other issue that western nations exploit poor nations. Which comes back to the difference between world ideologies and Gods Kingdom. The world is not going to change and this is the nature of the beast. More and more nations will want the material gains of the west. This is the measure that everyone has the same level of life as we living comfortably in the west. I don't think the earth can take that. Some something has to give.
 
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