What is Calvinism and its beliefs?

[Hentenza]

1 Tim 2:4

1 Tim 2:4

Are all men saved?

 

[Colo Millz]

I addressed this in my first paragraph that you edited out of your response.

The verses you quoted (excepting the Matt. 18 verse) speaks to God's heart rather that the process of salvation laid our throughout the New Testament, starting with John 6.

From reading your post several times, it more appears you have a problem with God saying narrow is the path to heaven and few there be who follow it. It isn’t Calvinism that makes that statement, it is Jesus. Perhaps you need to study your Bible more to see what Gods position on salvation is rather that trying to twist it to agree with some non-scriptural position you hold.

"Heart" rather than salvation, ok.

So where in scripture does it state that God's desire is thwarted by mankind?

 

[Colo Millz]

Are all men saved?

We can hope.

 

[Hentenza]

We can hope.

Non responsive. Hopefully you are not espousing universalism so are all men saved?

 

[Colo Millz]

Non responsive. Hopefully you are not espousing universalism so are all men saved?

“We can only say that the grace of God is so clear and decisive in Jesus Christ that it is not our task to set limits to it.”

- Karl Barth

Where in scripture does it state that God's desire is thwarted by mankind?

 

[Aaron112]

Where in scripture does it state that God's desire is thwarted by mankind?

Throughout the OT and NT. It does not take too much reading Scripture to see that mankind is evil and most refuse to repent (refuse to turn to God at all, and love evil, in fact devise more wickednesses during the night time for the next day.

 

[Hentenza]

“We can only say that the grace of God is so clear and decisive in Jesus Christ that it is not our task to set limits to it.”

- Karl Barth

Where in scripture does it state that God's desire is thwarted by mankind?

But you won’t answer my post? A citation is not an answer. The question is simple. Are all men saved? The next question that you did not answer is are you espousing universalism?

 

[Colo Millz]

Throughout the OT and NT. It does not take too much reading Scripture to see that mankind is evil and most refuse to repent (refuse to turn to God at all, and love evil, in fact devise more wickednesses during the night time for the next day.

An odd position for a Calvinist to take, then.

Scripture never says explicitly that God’s desire (will) is thwarted by mankind.

Job 42:2; Isa 46:10; Ps 115:3.

 

[Colo Millz]

But you won’t answer my post? A citation is not an answer. The question is simple. Are all men saved? The next question that you did not answer is are you espousing universalism?

My position is Barth's position which is perfectly clear.

 

[Hentenza]

My position is Barth's position which is perfectly clear.

So you hope. The logical ending to that is that you don’t know. But you posted a verse that says that all will be saved because who can dwarf Gods will . If no one can dwarf Gods will then all will be saved so you are indeed espousing universalism. Not a biblical position.

 

[Colo Millz]

So you hope. The logical ending to that is that you don’t know. But you posted a verse that says that all will be saved because who can dwarf Gods will . If no one can dwarf Gods will then all will be saved so you are indeed espousing universalism. Not a biblical position.

That is certainly not what the verse says.

[God our Savior] ]desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), 1 Ti 2:4.

How can you possibly interpret that as "all will be saved because who can dwarf Gods will".

Perhaps Barth's position is not so clear to you after all.

Which is ironic, because incidentally Barth, as you are probably aware, or maybe you aren't, was writing in the tradition of Calvinism.

He especially retained Calvin’s emphasis on God’s absolute initiative and grace - salvation is entirely God’s work, not human achievement.

And in spite of that or perhaps because of it, his position is as I have described it.

I repeat: It is extremely odd for a Calvinist, who more than anyone else, is supposed to hold to the sovereign will of God, to have to admit that his desire is somehow thwarted by mankind, or the Devil.

 

[Aaron112]

Scripture never says explicitly that God’s desire (will) is thwarted by mankind.

Whether by "mankind" is debatable by definitions perhaps. In the NT is written specifically that some quote "thwarted" God's plan for their <own> lives. "Thwarted" might not be the word used in all translations, but the idea is there in all .

 

[Hentenza]

That is certainly not what the verse says.

[God our Savior] ]desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), 1 Ti 2:4.

How can you possibly interpret that as "all will be saved because who can dwarf Gods will".

Because you didn’t answer my question. I asked you if all would be saved. You danced around the question and did not give a straight answer so what am I suppose to think?

So are all men will be saved?

 

[Aaron112]

So are all men will be saved?

Some fairytales say so. Apparently if not obviously Barth and Calvan do not agree with God nor with Scripture. From what has been published openly about Calvan, he did not live any good example of a God-fearing life.

 

[Colo Millz]

Whether by "mankind" is debatable by definitions perhaps. In the NT is written specifically that some quote "thwarted" God's plan for their <own> lives. "Thwarted" might not be the word used in all translations, but the idea is there in all .

I expect you are thinking of:

... but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.

English Standard Version Catholic Edition (n.p.: Augustine Institute, 2019), Lk 7:30.

The Greek verb atheteo means to reject, nullify, or set aside - often used of annulling a covenant or disregarding an authority.

Are the Calvinists then saying that some persons can resist God's grace? That God had a real redemptive purpose for the Pharisees (“for themselves”), and that they freely rejected that purpose?

Doesn't sound very much like Calvin to me. Rather:

God willeth all men to be saved; but many reject His counsel, to their own destruction.

John Wesley.

Can it be possible that the Calvinists are saying that Luke 7:30 illustrates actual resistance to God’s saving intent?

 

[Colo Millz]

Because you didn’t answer my question. I asked you if all would be saved. You danced around the question and did not give a straight answer so what am I suppose to think?

So are all men will be saved?

We can hope.

 

[Hentenza]

We can hope.

lol I don’t play games. I guess you are a universalist.

 

[Colo Millz]

lol I don’t play games. I guess you are a universalist.

Take it up with Karl Barth.

 

[Hentenza]

Take it up with Karl Barth.

No I’m taking it up with you.

 

[Colo Millz]

No I’m taking it up with you.

Then, for the third time - my position is the same as Barth's.

Perhaps to advance our discussion I should elaborate his position.

God’s grace is absolute and victorious. In Barth’s theology, Christ’s atoning work is decisive for all humanity. Through Christ’s incarnation, death, and resurrection, the whole of creation is reconciled to God.

Hell remains possible but not necessary. Barth acknowledged the reality of divine judgment and human freedom to resist God, but he refused to affirm that anyone must be damned. Instead, he argued that we cannot know that anyone is lost, only that God has acted to save all.

Therefore, Christians may hope - though not assert - that God’s mercy will finally triumph and that hell will, in the end, be empty.

Thus we cannot preach universal salvation as doctrine, but we must not deny the possibility that God’s grace will save all.

Now that I have elaborated my position perhaps you will elaborate Calvin's reading of, say, Luke 7:30? This thread is after all about Calvinism.