Here’s the No. 1 fallacy on eternal security

[Abraham1st]

Romans 5:17 has nothing to do with "imputation".

Romans 5:17 discusses infused grace rather than imputed righteousness.

We need grace because of more than the imputed offence, we need grace because of doing the same offences, and having no way ourselves to stop them.


Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

[Clare73]

Really, how come?

Addressed in post #336.

That's not what the text says. And Ezekiel wrote well after Adam,

So Scripture got it wrong in Eze 18:20?

through whom humanity did, indeed, contract the guilt of Adam's sin as we all fell with him. They didn't commit the sin but inherited the consequences nonetheless.

Correct, inherited the consequences, did not inherit the sin, which sin is imputed (Ro 5:14, 17), just as Christ's righteousness is imputed (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9), not inherited.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 5:17 has nothing to do with "imputation".

Romans 5:17 discusses infused grace rather than imputed righteousness.

Oops!

That should be Ro 1:17.

 

[Abraham1st]

Addressed in post #336.

So Scripture got it wrong in Eze 18:20?

Ezekiel does not seem to be speaking about what happened when sin came into the world, but Romans 5 does, and Genesis 3 begins details on that.

 

[Clare73]

There is a lot of testimony outside of the Epistles, neither is it a testimony on its own, but it is speaking further details about what was already testified.

More than guilt of Adam's sin was imputed, the offence was, and those offences continued, because sin was in the world

The sin that was in the world between Adam and Moses, before the law (Ro 5:13), is the sin of Adam (Ro 5:12)
imputed (accounted, charged) to mankind, Ro 5:17, 18-19 (just as the rIghteousness of Christ is imputed to mankind, Ro 5:8-19).

 

[Clare73]

Ezekiel does not seem to be speaking about what happened when sin came into the world, but Romans 5 does, and Genesis 3 begins details on that. 5

Eze 18:20 is speaking about sin, and Ro 5:12-19 is speaking about sin.
Our subject here is sin.

 

[fhansen]

Addressed in post #336.

No, it was speculated about and post #336. Something about imputation.

So Scripture got it wrong in Eze 18:20?

No, you got Scripture wrong. There's a difference between man and the way God deals with him before and after the Fall. Do you deny that man changed in some manner, as a result of the fall, that he existed in a whole new state of being? Was he really only declared to be unrighteous? Can you tell me why none are righteous in that case, why all sin?

 

[Clare73]

Really, how come? That's not what the text says.
And Ezekiel wrote well after Adam, through whom humanity did, indeed, contract the guilt of Adam's sin as we all fell with him. They didn't commit the sin but inherited the consequences nonetheless. Unless you think you've been living in Eden all this time. And unless you think that there are some who are righteous after all. But there aren't-because we all became sinners.

Then for your assertion above to have any merit, you must Biblically demonstsrate, which you have not done, my error in post #336, following, as well as post #342, on inheriting the consequences of sin, not the sin itself, which sin is imputed (Ro 5:17, 14).

We don't "become inherently guilty of possessing/inheriting someone else's sin" (Eze 18:20),
nor are we acquitted of possessing/inheriting someone else's sin that we don't possess.
Guilt of someone else's sin must be imputed to us (Ro 5:17), charged to our account,
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, and is likewise imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19), charged to our account.

Humanity became guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17,
the only sin that caused death between Adam and Moses, Ro 5:14, when there was no law to sin against to cause man's death, Ro 4:15), just as humanity becomes righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Both guilt of Adams sin and righteouness of Christ are imputed to mankind (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[fhansen]

Then for your assertion to have any merit, you must Biblically demonstsrate my error in post #336, following, which you have not done.

No I don't. You simply stated that unrighteousness was imputed while the text says that man became unrighteous. And that's totally consistent with the doctrine referred to as "original sin", and it explains why all men sin.

 

[Clare73]

No, it was speculated about and post #336. Something about imputation.

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate the error in my post #336, following:

"We don't 'become inherently guilty of possessing someone else's sin' (Eze 18:20),
nor are we acquitted of inheriting/possessing someone else's sin that we don't possess.
Guilt of someone else's sin must be imputed to us (Ro 5:17), charged to our account,
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, it was not inherited.

Humanity became guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17,
the only sin that caused death between Adam and Moses, Ro 5:14, when there was no law to sin against to cause man's death, Ro 4:15), just as humanity becomes righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Both guilt of Adam's sin and righteouness of Christ are imputed to mankind (Ro 5:18-19)."

No, you got Scripture wrong. There's a difference between man and the way God deals with him before and after the Fall. Do you deny that man changed in some manner, as a result of the fall, that he existed in a whole new state of being? Was he really only declared to be unrighteous? Can you tell me why none are righteous in that case, why all sin?

First, address what is on the table. . .i.e., Biblically demonstrate the error of my post #336, then we will go from there.

 

[Clare73]

No I don't. You simply stated that unrighteousness was imputed while the text says that man became unrighteous. And that's totally consistent with the doctrine referred to as "original sin", and it explains why all men sin.

imputation = to charge to, to account to, to reckon to

Read it again. . .

Ro 5:14 - "death reigned over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam (that's imputation of Adam's sin) who was a pattern (of the imputation of the righteousness) of the one to come."

Of what is the sinful Adam a pattern for the righteous Christ?

Ro 5:18 - the result of one trespasses (not the trespasses of all men) was condemnation for all men (by imputation).
Ro 5:19 - through the disobedience of one man (not many men), the many were made sinners (by imputation).

Ro 5:18 - the result of one act of righteousness (not of all men) was justification that brings life for all men (by imputation).
Ro 5:19 - through the obedience of one man (not all men), the many will be made righteous (by imputation).

The imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern for the imputation for Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

 

[Abraham1st]

The sin that was in the world between Adam and Moses, before the law (Ro 5:13), is the sin of Adam (Ro 5:12)
imputed (accounted, charged) to mankind, Ro 5:17, 18-19 (just as the rIghteousness of Christ is imputed to mankind, Ro 5:8-19).

Yes and i said there is a lot of testimony outside of what you just said again

 

[Abraham1st]

Eze 18:20 is speaking about sin, and Ro 5:12-19 is speaking about sin.
Our subject here is sin.

the subject is when sin entered into the world, and it is taken away by when righteousness came into the world.

 

[Abraham1st]

Then for your assertion above to have any merit, you must Biblically demonstsrate, which you have not done, my error in post #336, following, as well as post #342, on inheriting the consequences of sin, not the sin itself, which sin is imputed (Ro 5:17, 14).

Sin entered the world, it would not go away again, and what Adam did was both disobedience and offence, so to rectify those things, sin has to be taken out of the world, by obedience and by righteousness/glory, which is the opposing factor of offence, and of course of sin and of the disobedience.

 

[Abraham1st]

We don't "become inherently guilty of possessing/inheriting someone else's sin" (Eze 18:20),
nor are we acquitted of possessing/inheriting someone else's sin that we don't possess.
Guilt of someone else's sin must be imputed to us (Ro 5:17), charged to our account,
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, and is likewise imputed to us (Ro 5:18-19), charged to our account.

Sin entered the world through Adam, we inherited what Adam brought into the world, including the offences, the disobedience, and death by the sin and offences all did, the very same as Adam.

 

[Abraham1st]

Humanity became guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17,
the only sin that caused death between Adam and Moses, Ro 5:14, when there was no law to sin against to cause man's death, Ro 4:15), just as humanity becomes righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Both guilt of Adams sin and righteouness of Christ are imputed to mankind (Ro 5:18-19).

Adam was not in the transgression, Eve was, but Adam took what was offered him and that was then an offence, and sin as said, entered the world, and the way to the tree of life was guarded, and Adam and Eve were driven out from the garden of Eden were the tree of life was.

Then offences were committed by all men, but the way to the tree of life, the obedience, the righteousness, the glory, was later shown, when a body for sacrifice came into the world.


Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Acts 2:28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Abraham1st]

Feel free to Biblically demonstrate the error in my post #336, following:

"We don't 'become inherently guilty of possessing someone else's sin' (Eze 18:20),
nor are we acquitted of inheriting/possessing someone else's sin that we don't possess.
Guilt of someone else's sin must be imputed to us (Ro 5:17), charged to our account,
as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, it was not inherited.

We don't need to have someone elses sin, because everyone has their own sins. Ezekiel has every soul with their own guilt, or their own righteousness. That is a righteous judgement. It also gives the wicked an opportunity to turn from their sin, which they would be less able to do if they were also responsible for what their father did. ( if you are going to quote Ezekiel 18:20, how can you not talk about what is said here also ?



Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and DO THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT, he shall surely live, he shall not die.


Romans 5:17 talks of sin that entered the world, and Ezekiel is solely dealing with that sin that everyone is doing, and how they are being exhorted to do better. Romans 5 also addresses how the sin that all men did was taken away, not as Ezekiel says and as you are quoting, by men doing their own righteousness, but the opposite to this, it is by the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF ONE.


Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Clare73:
........as righteousness was imputed to Abraham (Ge 15:6), charged to his account, it was not inherited......


Abraham believed God, and belief is the opposing factor of Adam, with the offence. Romans 3 and 5 show that all sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God, so that speaks nothing of charged to their account, it tells the opposite, it tells that all men by their own actions fall short of the glory of God, and that is by their offences, sin and transgression.


Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

 

[Abraham1st]

Humanity became guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of Adam's sin (Ro 5:17,
the only sin that caused death between Adam and Moses, Ro 5:14, when there was no law to sin against to cause man's death, Ro 4:15), just as humanity becomes righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

Both guilt of Adam's sin and righteouness of Christ are imputed to mankind (Ro 5:18-19)."

Sin entered the world by Adams offence, then as sin was in the world, all men offended and sinned and died for their own sin.

The law was added because of transgressions, and that every mouth ( against God) may be stopped and that all the world is guilty before God. ( the law gives this knowledge of sin) Then the seed comes which is the righteousness of God without the law, by faith of Jesus Christ.

By one mans disobedience ( Adam) many were made sinners. ( because sin entered the world) and by one mans obedience ( as righteousness entered the world) many were made righteous. All men followed in Adams disobedience and offences, until many followed Christs obedience, righteousness and glory. ( Romans 5:19/8:30. 1 John 2:29/3:7.)


Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[Abraham1st]

Ro 5:14 - "death reigned over those who did not sin by breaking a command as did Adam (that's imputation of Adam's sin) who was a pattern (of the imputation of the righteousness) of the one to come."

Of what is the sinful Adam a pattern for the righteous Christ?

Ro 5:18 - the result of one trespasses (not the trespasses of all men) was condemnation for all men (by imputation).
Ro 5:19 - through the disobedience of one man (not many men), the many were made sinners (by imputation).

Ro 5:18 - the result of one act of righteousness (not of all men) was justification that brings life for all men (by imputation).
Ro 5:19 - through the obedience of one man (not all men), the many will be made righteous (by imputation).

The imputation of Adam's sin is the pattern for the imputation for Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19).

The pattern is sin entering into the world, and when sin entered the world, ( Romans 5:12.) Adam was not the only to make offences, absolutely all men sinned, doing offences. ( Romans 3:23.) The next pattern is that He ( Our Lord Jesus Christ) entered the world, ( Hebrews 10:5.) and the pattern is that He is obedience, and glory to God, Gods righteousness, and as Adam is not an example of faith, Christ is. All men have sinned Romans 5 tells us, and tells us because sin entered the world through that one mans offence, and Hebrews 10 tells us that when He ( Our Lord Jesus Christ) was come into the world, God had no pleasure in all offerings ever made for sin, but a body was prepared for Him, and we are SANCTIFIED THROGH THE OFFERING of the body of Jesus Christ.




Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

 

[Clare73]

We don't need to have someone elses sin, because everyone has their own sins.

It's not about what we need, it's about what God reveals and does (Ro 5:17-19), and our obligation to believe and agree with him.