Who then can be saved?

[A New Dawn]

That's not what this is about though. Of course, the message can be adopted to varying conditions and cultures. But not changed, the gospel is the same. They shared in the Holy Spirit, and that's a Christian concept and experience made possible because of Christs revelation and sacrifice. That's the new covenant, spoken of in Jer 31 regarding this new intimate relationship. "I will be their God and they will be My people." "I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts"

In all the covenants is the underlying principle of “I will be their God and they will be my people”. The new covenant does carry it further with God claiming He will write it on our hearts. But you still can’t place yourself in the situation of someone who turns his back on Christ and goes back to making animal sacrifices because YOU have never made animal sacrifices. THAT is the underlying crux of the part of the verse that says “since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” Every time they sacrifice an animal for the same sins Christ died for, they are sacrificing the Son of God again.

When you turn your back, which I don’t believe you can do, but theoretically, you walk away and move on. No harm, no foul. Not so for the Jewish person who goes back to animal sacrifices.

 

[fhansen]

In all the covenants is the underlying principle of “I will be their God and they will be my people”.

The new covenant specifies this union because it's the one major piece necessary in man finally coming to be justifed. Adam had "unjustified" us by his rejection of God as his God, as man wished to go it alone, and even the old covenant had not yet resolved the matter because the law only ended up being a tutor, convicting us of sin as it revealed our injustice, rather than giving us the ability to be free from and overcome it. "No one will be justifed by the law", IOW. They needed more.
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules.’” Matt 15:8-9

There's only one way to be justifed and that is by God, by virtue of that very union with Him. And this is why reconciliation with God, something the old covenant sacrifices could never obtain, is at the center of the gospel. That's to become "My people" because reconciliation is not merely a declared status, but is the relationship that man was created for, a relationship that is meant to begin in this world and to grow unto eternal life. Through Adam man had lost "the knowledge of God", which is why we don't know Him from birth. And knowledge of God, as revealed accurately and fully by His Son, is directly related to this reconciled relationship, because to truly know God is to begin to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him:
"No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:34

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

But you still can’t place yourself in the situation of someone who turns his back on Christ and goes back to making animal sacrifices because YOU have never made animal sacrifices. THAT is the underlying crux of the part of the verse that says “since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.” Every time they sacrifice an animal for the same sins Christ died for, they are sacrificing the Son of God again.

But it doesn't say that; it just says this:
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. Heb 6:4-6

It's simply to turn back to the flesh, to man instead of God. And that, as well, applies to all as Paul warns the Galatian believers:
"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:19-21

"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Gal 6:7-8

And to the Romans he says:
"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." Rom 11:17-22

 

[fhansen]

Again, you fail to understand what the simple word "if" means. Again "if" is not a command. You keep confusing the covenant of grace, with the covenant of the law. Jesus never commanded, or demanded, or insisted, or set any conditions, or any laws, nor did He require anyone to do anything in order to be saved.

Silliness. You're saying there's no consquences to failing to choose the right "if". What happens to those who don't remain in Him? Is He not telling us that we must be in Him with that verse, with that "if"? "Apart from Me you can do nothing" He tells us following that "if"-and that we'll be branches to be burned if apart from Him.

Jesus never set any conditions? First of all we must believe; that's a condition. And we must profess that belief. And we must obey the commandments, Matt 19:17 And we must love, John 13. Commands and conditions. We must be pure of heart in order to see God, Matt 5. We must clean the inside in order for the outside to be clean, Matt 23. We must forgive others in order to be forgiven by God, Matt 6.

 

[Dan1988]

No one is saved by works of the Law, by, IOW, believing they are righteous, holy, on their own, by their own efforts, with their own "holiness" as if merely obeying externally, by the Letter, could actually make one holy. That's legalism. Life in the Spirit is the dividing line between the old and new covenants. It means that we depend on Him for true holiness "Apart from Me you can do nothing", John 15:5 But "With God all things are possible", Matt19:26, including simply becoming who we were created to be-and that's a not a sinner. We mock God and the work of His Son if we think otherwise, Gal 6:7. Righteousness is still required under the new covenant, but it comes only from Him, as we humble ourselves and turn to Him in faith, no longer relying on ourselves in our pride. Then:

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. " Heb 6:4-6

"And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:9-14

If we're walking humbly with God, being just and living accordingly, loving mercy, then we're almost undoubtedly His children. Micah 6:8 And that requires grace, a life lived in the Spirit. Anything else is just talk.

I carefully considered all the above, and found it just doesn't add up. On the one hand you admit that salvation is of the Lord, then you go on to change it to "salvation is a joint effort between God and man".

Your version of the gospel is incoherent, because you can't have it both ways. Salvation is either of the Lord, or it's a joint effort between God and man. Some of your comments seem to suggest that it's of the Lord and others suggest that it's of both God and man.

Would be be so kind as to reveal which one of the two gospel messages you actually believe. Please don't say you believe in both versions as they are mutually exclusive.

 

[Dan1988]

Fallen man is also referred to as lost/astray, in need of being found, sick, in need of being healed, asleep, in need of being awoken. They're all metaphors, as is "dead in our sins". Man requires grace, man requires the intiative of God to awaken, to find, to raise, to heal, to prompt and call and move him from the unjust state of alienation from Him that Adam intitiated. While dimmed, obscured, corrupted, overidden, God's imasge still remains in man such that he isn't so depraved that he cant muster a "no" to being awakened, found, raised, healed, prompted, called and moved by grace, or that he can't return to the flesh, to his pigsty, after leaving it and turning to God, that he can't turn out to be poor soil, that he can't fail to persevere. That's why we're warned and admonished about those very things.

From what I gather above, you seem to believe that man is not born dead in sin. You seem to be suggesting that man is not born fully dead, but partially dead and partially alive.
In that case God's Word shouldn't say we're born dead, it should say we're born partially dead, so we can still use our living part to exercise our faith and cash in on Gods promise to save those who believe in Him.

The Bible doesn't support that doctrine at all, it actually opposes it.

Romans 3:10 "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks God'".

Roams 5:6 "For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly". This verse emphasizes humanity's innate helplessness, or lack of power to save itself.

Paul describes the condition before salvation: Ephesians 2:1-3 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins... among whom we all once conducted ourselves in the desires of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just like the rest".

Isaiah 3:56 This prophecy describes all people as lost and wandering: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all".

I have never found a single verse in the bible to support this idea that a natural unregenerate man can find it within himself to manufacture the faith required to repent and place his trust in the Lord. Everything I read, confirms that God is the One who must chose to quicken the natural man to life, then give him the gift of His grace, then give him the gift of faith, then give him the gift of the Holy Spirit, then give him the gift of a new nature, then give him the strength to persevere in the faith to the end.

Mans role in his salvation is 100% passive, he has nothing to offer God to help God save him. All the man has to offer is his total depravity and sin

 

[Dan1988]

Silliness. You're saying there's no consquences to failing to choose the right "if". What happens to those who don't remain in Him? Is He not telling us that we must be in Him with that verse, with that "if"? "Apart from Me you can do nothing" He tells us following that "if"-and that we'll be branches to be burned if apart from Him.

Jesus never set any conditions? First of all we must believe; that's a condition. And we must profess that belief. And we must obey the commandments, Matt 19:17 And we must love, John 13. Commands and conditions. We must be pure of heart in order to see God, Matt 5. We must clean the inside in order for the outside to be clean, Matt 23. We must forgive others in order to be forgiven by God, Matt 6.

I'm saying your theology is silly because it doesn't line up with anything the Bible says. You keep making silly claims, which are based on your private opinion. You haven't found a single verse to support your claim, so I have no choice other than to dismiss them as silly private opinions, without any Biblical foundation.

I see you're still struggling with the meaning of simple words ;like "if" and "you must" and "I command you". Jesus never commanded anyone to believe in Him, you show me a single verse where He made any such "demands" "commands" or placed any "requirements" for salvation and then you're doctrine will be justified. But until then, nobody will take it seriously, since there are billions of different opinions based on feelings and emotions.

Jesus is not into self mutilation, like those poor people who cut themselves to express their frustration and hurt. Why would Jesus allow the scoffers to strip Him naked, nail Him to a cross and torture Him to death, in order to save me a sinner, then one day turn on me and cut me from His Body and cast me into the lake of fire.
That Jesus sounds like an unstable man with multiple personality disorders and a sever mental illness.

But the Jesus of the Bible will never leave me, nor forsake me. He didn't say, I have saved you, but you better not step out of line or I will go back on My Word.
I personally, would have no respect for a Jesus who lied to me and I certainly wouldn't worship Him.

You won't find a single verse to support the idea that those who Jesus cut of and cast into the fire, were actually in Him to begin with, as that would contradict the gospel. He was describing those who come to Church and appear to be Christians outwardly, but were never truly converted.
They tasted of Gods goodness, they joined in fellowship lunch and many other blessings but they lived a double life in secret and they were eventually exposed as never being of the Brethren to begin with.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, it is your error. It is Christ who makes us new creatures (that’s called regeneration) and then He gives us the gift of the Holy Spirit to work in us to help confirm us to the image of Christ.

I take this to mean that after years of being progressively sanctified that you are materially more like Jesus in holiness, righteousness, purity, faithfulness, integrity, and love? And after years of self-reflection you are not more convinced today than ever before that the gap between your holiness and His is wider than you ever imagined before?

And you are only partially correct later on, also. The flesh IS corrupt, and that is why sin still has power over us even after we are regenerated. But you are splitting non-existent hairs. Whether or not we have been regenerated, as long as we are surrounded by sin, it has power over us.

Sin does not have power over us even thought the flesh is a slave to sin. We are not slaves of sin because we are in the Spirit, not in the flesh. That's why people must be born of the Spirit.

But the gift of the Holy Spirit helps mitigate that power so we can respond to its guidance.

I think we are talking about different powers. Certainly we have the power "to walk in the Spirit" (or "respond to its guidance" as you put it). That power is an innate ability that everyone in whom the Lord lives posesses. And when they excercise that power and walk in lock step with the Spirit, they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is because the desires of the flesh and the Spirit are in adversarial opposition to one another so that carrying out one's desires prevents the other one's desires from being fulfilled.

But this is not the power that releases us from slavery to sin. Otherwise, we would have to give up on the idea that in Christ we are slaves of God and of righteousness. How can we look at who we are in Christ and conclude that we vacillate between sin and righteousness? Do you not see that struggle to be between your flesh and your spirit that pull you in opposite directions and do you not consider you yorself to be on the spirit side of the battle?

We are NOT slaves to it after we have been redeemed.

The flesh is a slave of sin, and the new man is a slave of righteousness. How can you say that's not true?

And don’t flatter yourself that you think you have some secret knowledge that is not revealed in the Bible.

It is true that I am trying to help you see something that I see that you do not see. But just because you don't see it, that does not mean the Bible does not speak of it. If what I'm saying is not real, and is just a figment of my imagination, then you would be right.

I understand the Bible by looking at the context of the spoken and written word. That’s not “running away” from anything. You cannot take something that was said in one context and simply transpose it to a different, unrelated situation and make a coherent theology around it.

Hmmm... "we are surrounded by sin, it has power over us" and "sin still has power over us even after we are regenerated", but "We are NOT slaves to it after we have been redeemed". That's not very coherent, and it does not explain how we are slaves of God and of righteousness. I'm telling you the truth when I say these things only make sense if they are spiritual.

 

[fhansen]

I carefully considered all the above, and found it just doesn't add up. On the one hand you admit that salvation is of the Lord, then you go on to change it to "salvation is a joint effort between God and man".

Your version of the gospel is incoherent, because you can't have it both ways. Salvation is either of the Lord, or it's a joint effort between God and man. Some of your comments seem to suggest that it's of the Lord and others suggest that it's of both God and man.

Would be be so kind as to reveal which one of the two gospel messages you actually believe. Please don't say you believe in both versions as they are mutually exclusive.

It’s not incoherent once you realize that salvation is a way of life, a journey, a walk, one that a believer is equipped to make successfully but can still fail at. You can turn out to be poor soil, you can believe but be ashamed to profess that faith (John 12:42), you can fail to persevere, you can know Christ, taste of the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit, and still end up rejecting the gift. We can return to the flesh, we can fail to forgive others their trepasses. We can fail to love, to put it another way.

• Salvation is a journey, a process
• Grace is resistible, according to God’s wisdom; man’s will is never removed from the “equation”

But as we invest and express and act upon the gift, picking up our cross daily, remaining in Him, walking by the Spirit, we grow in it, and grow in conviction, in will, in strength of faith, hope, and love-and grow nearer to God in the process, closer to Him and more like Him. And nearness to God is what our faith is all about. That is salvation, and, ultimately, that is heaven, because He is heaven. That's how salvation is worked out, that's how we make our calling and election sure. Anyway, it begins by being grafted into the Vine. Again:

“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 17:22

When you can reconcile the following verses without employing mental gymnastics to make any of them fit a particular theology, you’ll better understand the gospel:

“…know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.“ Gal 2:16

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." matt 5:17-20

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” Gal 6:7-9

“For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. Eph 2:8-10

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:10, 12-14

“The just shall live by faith.” Rom 1:17

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

 

[fhansen]

Jesus is not into self mutilation, like those poor people who cut themselves to express their frustration and hurt. Why would Jesus allow the scoffers to strip Him naked, nail Him to a cross and torture Him to death, in order to save me a sinner, then one day turn on me and cut me from His Body and cast me into the lake of fire.
That Jesus sounds like an unstable man with multiple personality disorders and a sever mental illness.

It's not He who's the wildcard. It's man, always has been.

 

[fhansen]

You won't find a single verse to support the idea that those who Jesus cut of and cast into the fire, were actually in Him to begin with, as that would contradict the gospel. He was describing those who come to Church and appear to be Christians outwardly, but were never truly converted.

It might contradict your gospel, but not Scripture, not Christ's gospel. Anyone can be saved, anyone can repent and turn to God, anyone can remain in Him. The grace is there and He wants none to perish (2 Pet 3:9), and yet some will.

 

[fhansen]

Roams 5:6 "For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly". This verse emphasizes humanity's innate helplessness, or lack of power to save itself.

No one argues that man can save himself-except Pelagius, maybe-grace is absolutely essential as has been stated over and over. But man can resist that grace, he can refuse to be saved, or turn back away later, born out by how he lives his life, the fruit produced.

 

[A New Dawn]

I take this to mean that after years of being progressively sanctified that you are materially more like Jesus in holiness, righteousness, purity, faithfulness, integrity, and love? And after years of self-reflection you are not more convinced today than ever before that the gap between your holiness and His is wider than you ever imagined before?

Sin does not have power over us even thought the flesh is a slave to sin. We are not slaves of sin because we are in the Spirit, not in the flesh. That's why people must be born of the Spirit.

I think we are talking about different powers. Certainly we have the power "to walk in the Spirit" (or "respond to its guidance" as you put it). That power is an innate ability that everyone in whom the Lord lives posesses. And when they excercise that power and walk in lock step with the Spirit, they do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. That is because the desires of the flesh and the Spirit are in adversarial opposition to one another so that carrying out one's desires prevents the other one's desires from being fulfilled.

But this is not the power that releases us from slavery to sin. Otherwise, we would have to give up on the idea that in Christ we are slaves of God and of righteousness. How can we look at who we are in Christ and conclude that we vacillate between sin and righteousness? Do you not see that struggle to be between your flesh and your spirit that pull you in opposite directions and do you not consider you yorself to be on the spirit side of the battle?

The flesh is a slave of sin, and the new man is a slave of righteousness. How can you say that's not true?

It is true that I am trying to help you see something that I see that you do not see. But just because you don't see it, that does not mean the Bible does not speak of it. If what I'm saying is not real, and is just a figment of my imagination, then you would be right.

Hmmm... "we are surrounded by sin, it has power over us" and "sin still has power over us even after we are regenerated", but "We are NOT slaves to it after we have been redeemed". That's not very coherent, and it does not explain how we are slaves of God and of righteousness. I'm telling you the truth when I say these things only make sense if they are spiritual.

You are moving the goalposts to suggest there is more to salvation than the issue of sin and how God deals with it.

Jesus’ sole mission was to redeem a people for the Father. To free His people from their sins. Yes, He was a teacher that also taught us how to live and respond as a disciple of His, but that has a direct correlation to sanctification (the second aspect of salvation).

It seems very contradictory of you that you argue that we are slaves to sin, but sin doesn’t have any power over us. How does that work, exactly? And if sin doesn’t have any power over us (as believers), why do we need to have the presence of the Holy Spirit to help us conform to the image of Christ? Or why do we need to confess and repent from our sins if we don’t sin? You can’t on one hand say we are slaves to sin IF that sin has no power over us.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You are moving the goalposts to suggest there is more to salvation than the issue of sin and how God deals with it.

There are two main elements of salvation: 1) not perishing because of sin, and 2) gaining eternal life through spiritual union with Christ. See John 3:16 as an example.

Jesus’ sole mission was to redeem a people for the Father. To free His people from their sins. Yes, He was a teacher that also taught us how to live and respond as a disciple of His, but that has a direct correlation to sanctification (the second aspect of salvation).

Self-sanctification, yes. But God's sanctification of us is one-time, not ongoing.

It seems very contradictory of you that you argue that we are slaves to sin, but sin doesn’t have any power over us. How does that work, exactly?

Slavery to sin or to righteousness is a spiritual concept. But you want to apply it to the whole man. But it does not work when it is applied that way. Why? Because a person who lives in a body of corrupt flesh can never be accurately desribed as a "slave of God" or a "slave of righteousness". This can only apply to the redeemed spirit which has been joined to the Lord and is one spirit with Him.

Like I said, the flesh is sold under sin (i.e., a slave of sin) by its very nature. It is the source of our sin. But we are not in the flesh any more after Christ came to live in us. We are in the Spirit, where righteousness is. We are slaves of God and of righteousness and are free from sin by virtue of our union with Him.

And if sin doesn’t have any power over us (as believers), why do we need to have the presence of the Holy Spirit to help us conform to the image of Christ?

Do you not understand that the presence of the Holy Spirit means that we have been joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17)? And do you find any verses that say the new man is ever less than "truly righteous and holy" (Eph 4:24)? Or do you find any verses that say the flesh sever stops growing corrupt (Eph 4:22)?

We were slaves to sin because of the flesh, but we are forgiven. The flesh is still a slave of sin, but we are not slaves of sin because we have been moved out of the flesh and the sins of the flesh are no longer held against us. We are slaves of righteousness because of union with Christ in the Spirit. We are not progressing in true righteousness and holiness because we already have it in Christ.

Or why do we need to confess and repent from our sins if we don’t sin?

We sin when we do not walk in the Spirit. And it is true that we are still responsible for the sins and sinfulness of the flesh because it is still our flesh. But we stand forgiven. When we do not walk in lock step with the Spirit, God corrects us. We should submit to His correction immediately. But if we don't, He continues His correction until we do. There is no reward for "confession and repentance" aside from "the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained" by His correction (Heb 12:11).

You can’t on one hand say we are slaves to sin IF that sin has no power over us.

Maybe the above discussion has answered this statement. If not, let me know.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That's not true, I never said you were lost if you don't agree with me. I may have said that, those who don't agree with what God has said are lost.

You're right, you didn't say it directly. You just strongly implied it. However, I did read between the lines correctly. Your logic goes something like this:

What I believe about the Bible is true,
Anyone who disagrees with me, disagrees with the Bible,
All true Christians believe the Bible,
Anyone who disagrees with me is not a true Christian, therefore
Since you disagree with me, you are not a true Christian.

If I made a statement based on my feeling and private unbiblical view and you corrected me, I would be thankful to you.

You do know that not every Christian who is confronted on their false doctrine receives it with thankfulness?

God commands His children to judge each other, our goal is to help someone to stop sinful behaviour and grow in holiness, not to shame or expel them. from the Church.

I have observed this point of view in personal interactions with a few (not many) people of reformed persuasion. But I havn't seen it elsewhere. Maybe this is something worth noting. Maybe not. I'll need to ponder this coincidence longer before comming to any conclusions.

Proverbs 9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be still wiser; Teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

Matthew 7:24 tells us that Jesus’ words, “Judge not, that you be not judged,” cannot mean that all of our judgments are wrong. Instead, Jesus wants us not to make wrong judgments. Let us not apply standards to others that we do not apply to ourselves.

In your judging, you should be careful about the measuring stick you are using because God will hold you to the same standard you are using. If the measuring stick is obedience to the law, then He will hold you responsible to obey every law with no exceptions (Ga 5:3). If the measuring stick is belief in the correct doctrine, then that is the measuring stick He will use against you. And, of course, the warning against judging other people is a call to be introspective about one's own shortcommings...

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. (Ro 2:1)​

 

[Dan1988]

It’s not incoherent once you realize that salvation is a way of life, a journey, a walk, one that a believer is equipped to make successfully but can still fail at. You can turn out to be poor soil, you can believe but be ashamed to profess that faith (John 12:42), you can fail to persevere, you can know Christ, taste of the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit, and still end up rejecting the gift. We can return to the flesh, we can fail to forgive others their trepasses. We can fail to love, to put it another way.

• Salvation is a journey, a process
• Grace is resistible, according to God’s wisdom; man’s will is never removed from the “equation”

But as we invest and express and act upon the gift, picking up our cross daily, remaining in Him, walking by the Spirit, we grow in it, and grow in conviction, in will, in strength of faith, hope, and love-and grow nearer to God in the process, closer to Him and more like Him. And nearness to God is what our faith is all about. That is salvation, and, ultimately, that is heaven, because He is heaven. That's how salvation is worked out, that's how we make our calling and election sure. Anyway, it begins by being grafted into the Vine. Again:

“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.” Rom 17:22

When you can reconcile the following verses without employing mental gymnastics to make any of them fit a particular theology, you’ll better understand the gospel:

“…know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.“ Gal 2:16

“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Rom 2:13

“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” Matt 19:17

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." matt 5:17-20

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.” Gal 6:7-9

“For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. Eph 2:8-10

“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7

“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 12:14

“But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.”

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:10, 12-14

“The just shall live by faith.” Rom 1:17

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

I haven't come across any scripture to support this idea that "salvation is a way of life, or a journey, or a walk that a believer can make successfully or fail at.
You may have been sincere when you came to these (unbiblical) conclusions, but nothing like that is found anywhere in the Bible.

My Bible tells me that the salvation of the Lord's people was accomplished before He created the earth. He elected to save a remnant of mankind for His own glory. You had nothing to do with His choice, of whom shall be saved and whom He leaves dead in their sin. The names of every single person who will be saved, was written in His book of life before time began and we have nothing to do with His choice.

This is why, your joint effort salvation model is fundamentally flawed. It goes directly against what God said. He said He choses whom shall be saved and you say that you and God chose together, so yes you're directly opposing God.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

There are many more verses than confirm election to salvation but you shouldn't need more than one and I gave you three. So if you reject what God has said, then you reject the entire Bible.

All of the verses you listed, describe how saved people live. They were not given as conditions or commandments to keep, in exchange for salvation.
Jesus said, "without Me you can do nothing". That wasn't directed at unbelievers, since He doesn't know them as His people, He is a stranger to them, so all they can do is evil continuously without ceasing and that's exactly what every saved person was like before they were converted by the Lord.

I don't do any good work of myself, since there is no good thing in me. It's the Holy Spirit who works through me, to do good works, but I still love in a body of death so I have to spend the rest of my life wrestling against the flesh. And thew flesh overcomes me every single day, but thank God my sins are not counted against me as they have all been fully paid for in advance.

I will attain sinless perfection when I receive my glorified body and become Christlike in the life to come. But that can't happen in this life, because the old man haunts me everyday and cries out to have his lust satisfied.

,

 

[Dan1988]

It's not He who's the wildcard. It's man, always has been.

I can't imagine how crazy someone would have to be to wilfully suffer the pain and shame and death of the cross to save someone. Then after He has saved them, decide that it was all for some silly prank, and He casts the saved person into the lake of fire instead.
I can't imagine anything so absurd, and to build a gospel version based on that is unthinkable.

 

[Dan1988]

It might contradict your gospel, but not Scripture, not Christ's gospel. Anyone can be saved, anyone can repent and turn to God, anyone can remain in Him. The grace is there and He wants none to perish (2 Pet 3:9), and yet some will.

I don't mean to sound like a wise guy, but you have got this verse completely wrong as well. If we consider the context and to whom Peters letter was address to, we quickly come to the realization that he is writing to believers (the elect of God).

His letter is encouraging them to be patient, it's a reminder that God is patiently waiting until the last elect person comes to faith, before He brings this world to an end.

The text states that God is not willing that any of (His elect) should perish. If He wanted to save the whole of mankind, He would have but He obviously didn't choose to and we have no business asking "why not". But the question we should be asking is, why didn't He chose to cast all of mankind into hell, because that's what we all deserve.

 

[Dan1988]

No one argues that man can save himself-except Pelagius, maybe-grace is absolutely essential as has been stated over and over. But man can resist that grace, he can refuse to be saved, or turn back away later, born out by how he lives his life, the fruit produced.

I haven't found anything in the Bible to support this "ability to resist Gods grace". God only gives grace to His elect, but He works on our heart before we can believe the gospel.

We all know that the gospel has the stench of death to the unregenerate natural man, so not only does he resist Gods grace, he actually hates God, so he can never believe or repent.

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God".

This is why the Bible says that both grace and faith are gifts that God only gives to his elect. The natural man is dead in his sin, there's no way he can produce saving faith of himself. God must give it to him or he will remain dead forever.

 

[Dan1988]

You're right, you didn't say it directly. You just strongly implied it. However, I did read between the lines correctly. Your logic goes something like this:

What I believe about the Bible is true,
Anyone who disagrees with me, disagrees with the Bible,
All true Christians believe the Bible,
Anyone who disagrees with me is not a true Christian, therefore
Since you disagree with me, you are not a true Christian.

You do know that not every Christian who is confronted on their false doctrine receives it with thankfulness?

I have observed this point of view in personal interactions with a few (not many) people of reformed persuasion. But I havn't seen it elsewhere. Maybe this is something worth noting. Maybe not. I'll need to ponder this coincidence longer before comming to any conclusions.

In your judging, you should be careful about the measuring stick you are using because God will hold you to the same standard you are using. If the measuring stick is obedience to the law, then He will hold you responsible to obey every law with no exceptions (Ga 5:3). If the measuring stick is belief in the correct doctrine, then that is the measuring stick He will use against you. And, of course, the warning against judging other people is a call to be introspective about one's own shortcommings...

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. (Ro 2:1)​

What I believe about the Bible, is the same as what the Church has taught since the Apostles. If I misinterpret or misapply a bible doctrine, then it should be bought to my attention.

We're blessed to live in our age, where we enjoy the benefit of 2000 years of Church history. In that time, the Church Fathers and Bible Scholars have carefully studied the whole counsel of the Lord. So we know more than the prophets and the Apostles combined, so there is no excuse for holding to false doctrines.

I do know that Christians don't enjoy being confronted with the awful truth about their sin, but we do it out of love for them. If someone goes to the Doctor to get the results of their medical examination and the Doctor doesn't tell them they have cancer because he doesn't want to hurt their feelings, would you consider him to be a good Doctor?

I don't enjoy voting to have member excommunicated out of our Church, but I have to do it because we can't afford to tolerate sin in the Church. It's the same as not cutting a cancerous tumour out of a body. Likewise I don't enjoy rejecting new applications for membership, by people who try to justify sin in their life.

We recently rejected an application by a couple living together before they marry. They claim that living apart in separate apartments would be too expensive, but that's not a valid excuse. We demanded that they stop living together before we consider their application and they decided to go to another (seeker friendly) Church, where they were accepted.

We don't enjoy judging people, but we have no choice if we are to be a faithful Church. We don't make the rules, the Church was established y the Lord, So nobody has the right to change any Church ordinances.

The Bible has a lot to say about what it takes to be a Church member and it does involve judging every member and would be member. Our Church leaders are responsible for the spiritual health of the flock, they are accountable to God so it's a very serious office to hold.
We regularly have visitors storm out half way through a sermon, because they don't like to hear about Gods hatred of sin and judgement. Jesus said "judge every tree by it's fruits", so if we see someone baring bad fruit we confront them and demand they repent and change their ways.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

What I believe about the Bible, is the same as what the Church has taught since the Apostles. If I misinterpret or misapply a bible doctrine, then it should be bought to my attention.

We're blessed to live in our age, where we enjoy the benefit of 2000 years of Church history. In that time, the Church Fathers and Bible Scholars have carefully studied the whole counsel of the Lord. So we know more than the prophets and the Apostles combined, so there is no excuse for holding to false doctrines.

I do know that Christians don't enjoy being confronted with the awful truth about their sin, but we do it out of love for them. If someone goes to the Doctor to get the results of their medical examination and the Doctor doesn't tell them they have cancer because he doesn't want to hurt their feelings, would you consider him to be a good Doctor?

I don't enjoy voting to have member excommunicated out of our Church, but I have to do it because we can't afford to tolerate sin in the Church. It's the same as not cutting a cancerous tumour out of a body. Likewise I don't enjoy rejecting new applications for membership, by people who try to justify sin in their life.

We recently rejected an application by a couple living together before they marry. They claim that living apart in separate apartments would be too expensive, but that's not a valid excuse. We demanded that they stop living together before we consider their application and they decided to go to another (seeker friendly) Church, where they were accepted.

We don't enjoy judging people, but we have no choice if we are to be a faithful Church. We don't make the rules, the Church was established y the Lord, So nobody has the right to change any Church ordinances.

The Bible has a lot to say about what it takes to be a Church member and it does involve judging every member and would be member. Our Church leaders are responsible for the spiritual health of the flock, they are accountable to God so it's a very serious office to hold.
We regularly have visitors storm out half way through a sermon, because they don't like to hear about Gods hatred of sin and judgement. Jesus said "judge every tree by it's fruits", so if we see someone baring bad fruit we confront them and demand they repent and change their ways.

Wow. I had no idea this is what you meant when you said you judged people.