Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

[Hoping2]

Really ?

How do you then explain the conversion of Saul or the slaying of Ananias or Herod?

You've lost the context of my reply, which is still relevant to the OP.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You've lost the context of my reply, which is still relevant to the OP.

MAYBE NOT...

Paul was chosen and apprehended by the presence of God and blinded - do you think he could resist that by his will ?

God's love reigns supreme as part of His sovereign will.

He didn't whisper 'Hey Saul - this is Jesus - would you consider going easy on my Christian friends - please' ?

He (Jesus) is in control here - not us.

 

[johansen]

He didn't whisper ' Hey Saul - this is Jesus - would you consider going easy on my Christian friends - please ?

I had a similar thing happen.

14th of november 2012. an angel woke me up at 4am in the morning over a forum post i made about entropy wins and there is no rapture.

said post was made the 24th of may, 2011. man my memory is foggy, I thought there was a 4 month gap, not a year and 6 months.

this still remains the singular most terrifying and obviously from God experience i've ever had and it still makes no sense in that.. why, why was that so important. no one on that forum listened to anything i said anyways.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I had a similar thing happen.

14th of november 2012. an angel woke me up at 4am in the morning over a forum post i made about entropy wins and there is no rapture.

said post was made the 24th of may, 2011. man my memory is foggy, I thought there was a 4 month gap, not a year and 6 months.

this still remains the singular most terrifying and obviously from God experience i've ever had and it still makes no sense in that.. why, why was that so important. no one on that forum listened to anything i said anyways.

It seems modern Christianity lacks encounters that leave one mute when the almighty or His messengers speak.

His ways need to be politically correct these days it seems, when any display of force is considered abuse and necessarily from a wrong spirit.

There will be a lot of surprises when His Holy Magnificence is encountered at judgement - sure the Lamb's blood will cover us but the Terrible Presence of the Father will be there as well.

In fact His indwelling fear in us keeps us from falling away and is our best friend.

 

[enoob57]

I’m going

It seems modern Christianity lacks encounters

I see you’re still trying to lead people in their sensual aspects through flesh… You’re lack of understanding the transitional nature of the New Testament writing was going from Law to Grace ! They did not have the New Testament scripture, and because of that God and His Grace gave to them special spiritual things in order to aid them in this huge lack of material guidance… One of the things we talked about in the past was is God still speaking today? The answer to that is no, and the reason for that is God has taught us in his word this sufficiency of Scripture. To say that he is still speaking today is a direct indication that his word is not sufficient or better his scripture is not sufficient and there needs to be more. However, the leading of scripture is really clear as to the transmission of spoken to written laid out in scripture:

The thing that John was speaking of when he says ‘Word’ was either actual verbal communication or Scripture… today a word from God from our charismatic brothers and sisters means a plethora of possibilities… However, when you study the New Testament leading it is soley going toward written Scripture…

Taking this example to the nth degree, we have this
John 12:48 (KJV)
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

As we see Jesus is literally speaking about His speaking to them ‘spoken word’ AT THAT IMMEDIATE TIME… Yet Scripture dictates to us this truth about the words Jesus was speaking at that time

John 14:23-26 (KJV)
23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is where we get inspiration of the Scriptures from verse 26 but the difficulty lies in the fact that they all died… the question is what about the Comforter and His inspired work? What happened to that? Here is where the transmission of the spoken word would become the written word. Let’s focus again on the passage in

John 12:48 48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 20:12 (KJV) (The great white throne)
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

you will note that the spoken word that Jesus was talking about in John 12:48 is now written books in the last judgment…

We have nothing in the judgment, of God saying remember when I said this to you! So the question really rest on -> are you going to follow the leading of the Scripture or of the group you are with?

 

[johansen]

It seems modern Christianity lacks encounters that leave one mute when the almighty or His messengers speak.

His ways need to be politically correct these days it seems, when any display of force is considered abuse and necessarily from a wrong spirit.

Christians today not only lack the righteousness to get close to God to allow for God to engage in them in such ways, but they lack the personal development needed to properly escalate matters, and some of that is lack of experience in the smaller matters to be trained up in the ways of properly handling larger matters. but most of it is just: "i don't want to get involved"

For example, when a person lies to an entire church about what someone spoke in tongues said. At most, a mostly quiet board meeting happens and they vote to ask the person who spoke in tongues to leave. not the liar.

is God still speaking today? The answer to that is no, and the reason for that is God has taught us in his word this sufficiency of Scripture

have you healed anyone lately? has the Spirit of God done anything through you in your entire life?

if the answer is no.... maybe you are the one that is wrong.

 

[enoob57]

.have you healed anyone lately? has the Spirit of God done anything through you in your entire life?

if the answer is no.... maybe you are the one that is wrong.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why didn’t the Lord know these? They were doing the very same things that you claim proves that you are of Lord?

 

[Hoping2]

MAYBE NOT...

Paul was chosen and apprehended by the presence of God and blinded - do you think he could resist that by his will ?

God's love reigns supreme as part of His sovereign will.

He didn't whisper 'Hey Saul - this is Jesus - would you consider going easy on my Christian friends - please' ?

He (Jesus) is in control here - not us.

Do you think that was a forced conversion ?
I don't.
Jesus said it was hard for Paul to kick against the pricks.
Paul had already been considering aspects of the new church, and Jesus' visitation clinched the deal.
Were you forced to turn from darkness and unto the light ?
I was not forced to turn from sin.
I gladly repented !

 

[johansen]

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why didn’t the Lord know these? They were doing the very same things that you claim proves that you are of Lord?

Those people deceived themselves and others, and are attempting self justification

 

[Hentenza]

I had a similar thing happen.

14th of november 2012. an angel woke me up at 4am in the morning over a forum post i made about entropy wins and there is no rapture.

said post was made the 24th of may, 2011. man my memory is foggy, I thought there was a 4 month gap, not a year and 6 months.

this still remains the singular most terrifying and obviously from God experience i've ever had and it still makes no sense in that.. why, why was that so important. no one on that forum listened to anything i said anyways.

Is not really the members that read your post but the lurkers. At any given time we might have 30 to 50 members but over a thousand lurkers. Most people only think that they are posting primarily to those in the thread and forget about the people that just like to read. Who knows, maybe something you said changed someone’s life or perspective.

 

[enoob57]

Those people deceived themselves and others, and are attempting self justification

So how do we ourselves make sure we are not deceived?

 

[johansen]

So how do we ourselves make sure we are not deceived?

bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

as for "beliefs"

i don't personally understand why everyone gets triggered by what someone else believes? i've been a christian for a long time and it seems to me that what a person believes is not even the secondary hinderance. or tertiary, with regard to what God is able to do with them. except for cessationism.

I know with relative certainty I probably believe things that are false, I also know my own maturity levels and how I handle things, I will not mention specifics but rather than the Holy Spirit tell me i'm wrong.. I'm told "do not divide my people". we have enough division, Calvinism vs arminianism vs protestants vs catholicism vs eastern orthodox. -the issue isn't the beliefs. the problem is you put an average christian from each camp in a room together and someone is going to get murdered.


13 years ago i would say i had a life changing perspective shift when the Spirit brought to my mind john 12:31.
the judgement is now, it started 2000 years ago. that one verse destroys most end times theologies.

 

[enoob57]

bear fruit in keeping with repentance.

as for "beliefs"

i don't personally understand why everyone gets triggered by what someone else believes? i've been a christian for a long time and it seems to me that what a person believes is not even the secondary hinderance. or tertiary, with regard to what God is able to do with them. except for cessationism.

I know with relative certainty I probably believe things that are false, I also know my own maturity levels and how I handle things, I will not mention specifics but rather than the Holy Spirit tell me i'm wrong.. I'm told "do not divide my people". we have enough division, Calvinism vs arminianism vs protestants vs catholicism vs eastern orthodox. -the issue isn't the beliefs. the problem is you put an average christian from each camp in a room together and someone is going to get murdered.


13 years ago i would say i had a life changing perspective shift when the Spirit brought to my mind john 12:31.
the judgement is now, it started 2000 years ago. that one verse destroys most end times theologies.

God established his scripture, his word for all of the children of God to grow and have knowledge of him anything outside of this is a foundation that will not hold up in this dark fleshy world when come into his judgment…
2 Timothy 3:15-17 (KJV)

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Perhaps you should ask yourself why didn’t the Lord know these? They were doing the very same things that you claim proves that you are of Lord?

Nonsense,

Example -

I was having a holiday in a small town, being rather exhausted.

I heard that a Pastor lived there who was taking at risk folks into his home.

One of the main ways I am guided in God's will is in response to the promise "If you trust in the Lord he will give you the desires of your heart". I had come to realise this promise had a double meaning - he plants desires within you - and He fulfils the desires He gives.

So I had a strong desire to visit him and and knew deeply it was God given.

So the next day I decided to drive down to where he lived - BUT - getting into the car I felt totally awful and knew the timing was wrong. Next day the same - got in the car - couldn't drive.

Third day - at 930 pm !!!. Go now. So cold call with no sense of why. Knock on the door as a total stranger and the Pastors wife welcomed me in for a cup of tea, saying he would be back in 20 mins.

Pastor walks in the door and his first words were "no one comes in my door unless they are sent".

We sat together and he invited me to pray for an alcoholic he had taken in who was seeking Jesus.

I was not looking for ministry due to my exhaustion levels but reluctantly joined in to pray.

Then it happened, the Pastor fell to the floor holding his throat crying out 'pray for me'...

My response was "but I'm on holiday - I am not looking for ministry..."

To which he responded "get off the grass"

So with some reluctance I sought God about what was to be done, and He showed me what deliverance from spiritual entities was needed.

These I dealt with in Jesus name and he was set free.

I heard days later that his ministry was transformed as a result.

He never got to know who I was and to this day I was simply someone who came with God's commission at the right time.

This is one of several events I have been privileged to see unfold that cant be explained in human terms...

I am knocking on the door of 80 years old and have nothing to lose sharing what my walk with God is about.

You ask how I can prove my experiences are of the Lord - better for you to prove they are not...

And to demonise those who do not believe what you do is hardly maintaining the unity of the spirit in the bonds of peace.

All my life my desire has been to be like Jesus and this dream has come true - the sick are healed, the lame walk and the gospel is shared.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

A point that few raise in this debate relates to the nature of man.

What aspect of yourself is not a gift given by the lifegiver Himself ???

The ability to think, speak, love, breathe, walk, know, see, hear, repent...

Our very existence is a gift.


As Paul said in Romans...

The Lord told Moses that he has pity and mercy on anyone he wants to.

Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do.

In the Scriptures the Lord says to the king of Egypt, “I let you become king, so that I could show you my power and be praised by all people on earth.”

Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn.

Someone may ask, “How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?”

But, my friend, I ask, “Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did?

Doesn't a potter have the right to make a fancy bowl and a plain bowl out of the same lump of clay?”

God wanted to show his anger and reveal his power against everyone who deserved to be destroyed.
But instead, he patiently put up with them.

He did this by showing how glorious he is when he has pity on the people he has chosen to share in his glory.
Whether Jews or Gentiles,

We are those chosen ones... .

(...end quote from Romans)


This is the fundamental issue human pride bucks against resulting in the longest threads on the forum.

Boasting of any self effort is sin.

He is the author and finisher of faith - NOT US.

Yes God has mercy on whom He has mercy and whom He will He hardeneth. That has to do with the circumstances over which, we have no choice. What He does give everyone is free will. He tells us not to look on outward appearances but on the heart. So what about any of our circumstance here on Earth? We are called to deny ourselves take the cross and follow.
That is all by voluntary choice out of love, not compulsion. God gives us the insight and shows us that loving him is better than putting faith in the things of the world.
It is not worldly wise to say blessed is the man whom God chastises, for He smites but He binds up. He wounds but His hands give healing. The choice to love is voluntary, but the insight to make the correct choice is a gift.
We are called to love not our lives unto death and we will be given a crown of life. Satan likes to lie and say God hates us because bad things are happening, but it is not true
So what that you lost your job, got swindled out of 56,000 dollars, your wife hates you and your kids won’t talk to you. That does not give us the right to blame God and think it is ok to sin because God hates us
All we have to say is Jesus, I trust in you, not my will, but thy will be done. Behold the servant of the Lord, be it done to me according to thy words. Some harden their hearts and try to bargain with God, do this or that and I will follow, but God does not deal
Even in the teaching on the body of Christ, we are told not to be jealous or spiritual gifts of others. We are many members but one body. We cannot say because I have not such and such a gift, I am not of the body. We desire the best gifts but we are free to chose to love with what we have

 

[boughtwithaprice]

If you believe that we do works from salvation then how were we made righteous? How can the believer with saving faith be saved without being righteous?

Paul gives us the answer:

“But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in God’s merciful restraint He let the sins previously committed go unpunished; for the demonstration, that is, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3‬:‭21‬-‭26‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who b | New American Standard Bible - NA

But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, but it is the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who b

bible.com

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we | New American Standard Bible - NASB

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we

bible.com

Being justified or having been justified is in the aorist passive which means that receiver received it already as a gift with no further effort required. You cant accept justification apart from sanctification because your church teaches erroneously that both are one. Apostolic teaching does not agree with your church. There is nothing meaningless about being justified (once) and then work from salvation for sanctification. That is the order of things. We can’t make ourselves righteous (justified) by doing works. We can, however, work alongside our Lord for our sanctification.


There are certainly those that do not have saving faith. People need to complete their faith by being born again. Again, the parable of the sower explains the different types of faith.


Because there are non. You assume that my argument stipulates that anyone that calls Jesus Lord actually has saving faith. Every verse regarding sanctification however, states the work we do naturally by having been justified.

Again, not my argument. Those with saving faith will keep His commandments (Jesus not the law). The warning are for those without saving faith.

Paul teaches:

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬-‭2‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:1-2 Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Downl

Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

bible.com

The key here is “IN Christ Jesus”.


All of us will face the judgement seat of Christ. Actually, tell me where in scripture Christ says that? I can show you where Paul teaches it.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

Do you think Paul teaches contrary to Christ? Of course not. Works never saved anyone. I much rather have a reward here but even those that do not do good works are STILL saved.

The apostles never taught works salvation. None of them did. The Catholic Church, however, it’s a different story.


No one has argued that. If you were to actually read and address other people’s posts you would know this. You are assigning others the wrong premise. You still believe that if those with saving faith do not do works during sanctification that they can loose their saving faith. That premise results in your belief that works are required for salvation. You talk with both sides of your mouth when you say that we work from salvation and then require works for salvation. Let me tell you what else Paul teaches in the holy scriptures.

“But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

bible.com

Alright, we need to take a step back, as I don’t see anything of what you are saying that is in conflict with Catholic teaching. Works come from salvation, salvation does not come from works, and there is no such thing as salvation without works. So what is your contention?

How is it you accuse the Catholic Church of teaching salvation from works? Be specific. It would be helpful if you could show me quotes from the Catechism.

If you won’t, that then begs the question, why are you not Catholic? Why should we leave Christ’s Church that has existed for 2000 years and teaches the same as yours, to follow one that just appeared 500 years ago amidst human strife ?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes God has mercy on whom He has mercy and whom He will He hardeneth. That has to do with the circumstances over which, we have no choice. What He does give everyone is free will.

Right there is a glaring contradiction...

Can I suggest a better understanding, that regarding election He chooses, but regarding our walk with Him we choose and are rewarded or not in eternity...

However many of your points are well taken...

 

[boughtwithaprice]

-
​

The Bible plainly states for a person to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life they must believe in Jesus. The Bible does not say the person must have God give a person a special type of belief to believe in Jesus.

The belief used is the type of belief people use in everyday life to believe in other stated promises.

Satan has been able to take the action of belief by people, with the help of warped theology. To turn around what belief actually is and to redefine belief to include a special type of belief that is based in works. That if a person has real belief they will without a doubt be a committed good work producing person.

That is why in The Bible there are warning to believers about falling away. Because God knows that even though a person has believed in Jesus and has become a born again child of God.

They are still in the world and the age of satan, living in a sinful body. That if they do not daily fight against the draw of the sinful world, they will fall away and become a useless child of God. Who will not be able to do the good works God has prepared for them to do .

The warning are to warn believers to avoid falling away. Not because they will lose their eternal life, but so they will not become useless in service to God their Father. A can actually be used by satan to inflict harm to God's family on earth and to corrupt God's good news message of Life.

Ok so you say there is one kind of belief but only those that really believe will produce works, which is the belief one kind or are there two?

Which verse says the fallen away will
be saved ? What I read in revelation says they will be vomitted out of God’s mouth and have there names blotted out of the book of life. Hebrews says if they fall away it is impossible to restore them to life as doing so crucifies the Lord afresh and brings Him to open shame

I agree that those with true belief will not be lost, but of those that fall away without repentance? I don’t see what you are taking about taught in scripture

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you think that was a forced conversion ?
I don't.
Jesus said it was hard for Paul to kick against the pricks.
Paul had already been considering aspects of the new church, and Jesus' visitation clinched the deal.
Were you forced to turn from darkness and unto the light ?
I was not forced to turn from sin.
I gladly repented !

Was Paul asked if he wanted to be blind ?

Can you support your claim that Paul "had already been considering aspects of the new church"

It was not a forced conversion but His Love is irresistible to the chosen.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

MAYBE NOT...

Paul was chosen and apprehended by the presence of God and blinded - do you think he could resist that by his will ?

God's love reigns supreme as part of His sovereign will.

He didn't whisper 'Hey Saul - this is Jesus - would you consider going easy on my Christian friends - please' ?

He (Jesus) is in control here - not us.

Paul could have resisted and had the faith of the other Pharisees and sat by Beelzebub pretending to be Jesus I am made blind. He could not resist the facts of what happened to him, but the other Pharisees saw Jesus actually cast out a demon right in front of them, and they ascribed his power to Satan. Jesus had to school them and tell them Satan does not cast out Satan. Did they then repent? There is no scriptural evidence they did