I asked "AI" (Deepseek R1 model) some difficult topics Christianity

[timewerx]

The model is given the New Testament scriptures to search and analyze and already pre-trained by its developers (not me). I'm a Christian for over 20 years and have read the whole Bible many times conducted deep studies of New testament many years ago, long before "AI" even became a thing. So I'm not doing these out of laziness. I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking. I only needed confirmation or perhaps to test "AI" (or LLMs) of its ability to reason if it can match my Holy Spirit guided studies of the Bible.

Here is the question (more to follow!):

if scriptures can guide us to salvation then why Jesus did not give any command to canonize scriptures but to receive guidance from the spirit of truth instead?

Deepseek's response:

Okay, so I'm trying to figure out why Jesus didn't tell people to canonize scriptures if they can guide us to salvation. The user mentioned that the Bible says God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and James 1:5 about wanting wisdom. Also, there's something about not needing a rule of faith like Tertullian had.

First, I need to understand what it means for scriptures to "guide us to salvation." The user is implying that if the Bible can do this, why didn't Jesus establish a process to make certain which parts are officially recognized (canonized)? Instead, he told people to receive guidance from the Spirit of truth.

I think about how in the early Christian church, there was no single rule or set of criteria for what would become the New Testament. The Gospels and other writings were circulating among communities, but they weren't all considered equal or official right away.

Maybe Jesus didn't need to canonize scriptures because he taught that the Spirit would lead people directly. He emphasized a personal relationship with God through the Spirit (John 14:26), so perhaps he saw the scriptures as a guide but not the ultimate authority. The user's excerpt from Tertullian shows that in early times, there wasn't a clear consensus on what was authoritative.

Also, if Jesus had tried to canonize specific texts, it might have been too soon or without enough agreement among believers about which books were truly inspired. The process of deciding the canon took time and involved debates over various writings' authenticity and value.

Additionally, the Bible itself contains warnings against adding extra teachings (like in Revelation) and emphasizes faith in God's word rather than human traditions. So maybe Jesus knew that leaving it to the Spirit and individual hearts was more effective for people's salvation without imposing a specific set of scriptures.

I should also consider how the concept of canon developed later, influenced by the needs of the church as it grew and needed a unified body of teachings. Before that, communities probably used various scriptures, including Jewish ones, along with their own experiences guided by the Spirit to understand truth.

So in summary, Jesus didn't need to establish a canon because he trusted the Spirit's guidance over any specific set of scriptures. The process of deciding which books were authoritative came later as the church organized and needed a unified message.Jesus did not establish a formal process for canonizing scriptures because his primary focus was on fostering a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, rather than relying solely on written texts (John 14:26). He emphasized that the Spirit would guide believers directly. This approach allowed for flexibility and reliance on individual spiritual experiences.

The early Christian church faced challenges in identifying which writings were authoritative. Without a unified rule of faith like Tertullian's, communities relied on their own understanding guided by the Spirit and existing Jewish scriptures. Over time, as the church grew, the need arose to organize and unify teachings into a recognized canon, which was not part of Jesus' original instruction.

Thus, Jesus' method encouraged reliance on the Holy Spirit for guidance rather than waiting for an official list of scriptures. This approach aligned with his teaching that salvation comes through faith in God, as opposed to human traditions or specific textual authority.

 

[partinobodycular]

The model is given the New Testament scriptures to search and analyze and already pre-trained by its developers (not me).

Here is the question (more to follow!):

if scriptures can guide us to salvation then why Jesus did not give any command to canonize scriptures but to receive guidance from the spirit of truth instead?

Deepseek's response:

Okay, so I'm trying to figure out why Jesus didn't tell people to canonize scriptures if they can guide us to salvation. The user mentioned that the Bible says God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and James 1:5 about wanting wisdom. Also, there's something about not needing a rule of faith like Tertullian had.

First, I need to understand what it means for scriptures to "guide us to salvation." The user is implying that if the Bible can do this, why didn't Jesus establish a process to make certain which parts are officially recognized (canonized)? Instead, he told people to receive guidance from the Spirit of truth.

I think about how in the early Christian church, there was no single rule or set of criteria for what would become the New Testament. The Gospels and other writings were circulating among communities, but they weren't all considered equal or official right away.

Maybe Jesus didn't need to canonize scriptures because he taught that the Spirit would lead people directly. He emphasized a personal relationship with God through the Spirit (John 14:26), so perhaps he saw the scriptures as a guide but not the ultimate authority. The user's excerpt from Tertullian shows that in early times, there wasn't a clear consensus on what was authoritative.

Also, if Jesus had tried to canonize specific texts, it might have been too soon or without enough agreement among believers about which books were truly inspired. The process of deciding the canon took time and involved debates over various writings' authenticity and value.

Additionally, the Bible itself contains warnings against adding extra teachings (like in Revelation) and emphasizes faith in God's word rather than human traditions. So maybe Jesus knew that leaving it to the Spirit and individual hearts was more effective for people's salvation without imposing a specific set of scriptures.

I should also consider how the concept of canon developed later, influenced by the needs of the church as it grew and needed a unified body of teachings. Before that, communities probably used various scriptures, including Jewish ones, along with their own experiences guided by the Spirit to understand truth.

So in summary, Jesus didn't need to establish a canon because he trusted the Spirit's guidance over any specific set of scriptures. The process of deciding which books were authoritative came later as the church organized and needed a unified message.Jesus did not establish a formal process for canonizing scriptures because his primary focus was on fostering a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, rather than relying solely on written texts (John 14:26). He emphasized that the Spirit would guide believers directly. This approach allowed for flexibility and reliance on individual spiritual experiences.

The early Christian church faced challenges in identifying which writings were authoritative. Without a unified rule of faith like Tertullian's, communities relied on their own understanding guided by the Spirit and existing Jewish scriptures. Over time, as the church grew, the need arose to organize and unify teachings into a recognized canon, which was not part of Jesus' original instruction.

Thus, Jesus' method encouraged reliance on the Holy Spirit for guidance rather than waiting for an official list of scriptures. This approach aligned with his teaching that salvation comes through faith in God, as opposed to human traditions or specific textual authority.

Methinks that Deepseek needs to learn to cut down on the verbiage.

 

[timewerx]

Methinks that Deepseek needs to learn to cut down on the verbiage.

The Llama models by itself seem to be the least wordy and I'm actually running deepseek r1 distill with Llama. Deepseek made it wordy.

But I still prefer it with deepseek due to quality and detailed response even if too wordy.

 

[timewerx]

Discussion topic with LLM:


solomon seemed to value material wealth while Jesus did not.

Answer:


In comparing King Solomon and Jesus' perspectives on material wealth:

1. King Solomon:
   • Emphasized material wealth highly, with goblets made entirely of gold and household items also in pure gold.
   • Valued trading ships filled with precious goods like silver, ivory, apes, etc., indicating a focus on luxury and external riches.
2. Jesus:
   • Promoted spiritual values over material wealth, emphasizing love for God and neighbor as the foundation of one's life.
   • Sin was seen as mixing material nature (body) with spiritual aspects, leading to domination by materialism; salvation comes through overcoming such attachment.

In summary, King Solomon represents a focus on outer material wealth, while Jesus advocates for prioritizing spiritual values over earthly gains.


My personal (human) take on this subject:

The scriptures made an example of how materialistic person lived his life. I strongly doubt Solomon's example is to be copied or emulated. I don't even think that Proverbs is to be regarded as guide given the teachings that value material wealth which clearly contradicts the teachings of Jesus.

The mainstream belief blindly accepts the teachings of Solomon without consideration to its consequences - unsustainable reality that facts ultimately prove causes harm not only to our planet but also to the most vulnerable.

 

[fhansen]

The model is given the New Testament scriptures to search and analyze and already pre-trained by its developers (not me). I'm a Christian for over 20 years and have read the whole Bible many times conducted deep studies of New testament many years ago, long before "AI" even became a thing. So I'm not doing these out of laziness. I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking. I only needed confirmation or perhaps to test "AI" (or LLMs) of its ability to reason if it can match my Holy Spirit guided studies of the Bible.

Here is the question (more to follow!):

if scriptures can guide us to salvation then why Jesus did not give any command to canonize scriptures but to receive guidance from the spirit of truth instead?

Deepseek's response:

Okay, so I'm trying to figure out why Jesus didn't tell people to canonize scriptures if they can guide us to salvation. The user mentioned that the Bible says God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and James 1:5 about wanting wisdom. Also, there's something about not needing a rule of faith like Tertullian had.

First, I need to understand what it means for scriptures to "guide us to salvation." The user is implying that if the Bible can do this, why didn't Jesus establish a process to make certain which parts are officially recognized (canonized)? Instead, he told people to receive guidance from the Spirit of truth.

I think about how in the early Christian church, there was no single rule or set of criteria for what would become the New Testament. The Gospels and other writings were circulating among communities, but they weren't all considered equal or official right away.

Maybe Jesus didn't need to canonize scriptures because he taught that the Spirit would lead people directly. He emphasized a personal relationship with God through the Spirit (John 14:26), so perhaps he saw the scriptures as a guide but not the ultimate authority. The user's excerpt from Tertullian shows that in early times, there wasn't a clear consensus on what was authoritative.

Also, if Jesus had tried to canonize specific texts, it might have been too soon or without enough agreement among believers about which books were truly inspired. The process of deciding the canon took time and involved debates over various writings' authenticity and value.

Additionally, the Bible itself contains warnings against adding extra teachings (like in Revelation) and emphasizes faith in God's word rather than human traditions. So maybe Jesus knew that leaving it to the Spirit and individual hearts was more effective for people's salvation without imposing a specific set of scriptures.

I should also consider how the concept of canon developed later, influenced by the needs of the church as it grew and needed a unified body of teachings. Before that, communities probably used various scriptures, including Jewish ones, along with their own experiences guided by the Spirit to understand truth.

So in summary, Jesus didn't need to establish a canon because he trusted the Spirit's guidance over any specific set of scriptures. The process of deciding which books were authoritative came later as the church organized and needed a unified message.Jesus did not establish a formal process for canonizing scriptures because his primary focus was on fostering a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, rather than relying solely on written texts (John 14:26). He emphasized that the Spirit would guide believers directly. This approach allowed for flexibility and reliance on individual spiritual experiences.

The early Christian church faced challenges in identifying which writings were authoritative. Without a unified rule of faith like Tertullian's, communities relied on their own understanding guided by the Spirit and existing Jewish scriptures. Over time, as the church grew, the need arose to organize and unify teachings into a recognized canon, which was not part of Jesus' original instruction.

Thus, Jesus' method encouraged reliance on the Holy Spirit for guidance rather than waiting for an official list of scriptures. This approach aligned with his teaching that salvation comes through faith in God, as opposed to human traditions or specific textual authority.

It's not the Spirit of truth only-Jesus came to reveal truths that we need to know. and His disciples were spreading that truth before a word of the new testament was written. The Bereans, for example, diligent as they were in studying Scripture, required the input of Christ's disciples in order to properly understand it. And even with Christ's revelation, which the new testament attests to, there were many things that were recorded while others were not. The Spirit works through His people and His written Word and there's a body of beliefs in Christianity that have continuity back to the beginning and those are aligned with the Spirit as well.

 

[timewerx]

It's not the Spirit of truth only-Jesus came to reveal truths that we need to know. and His disciples were spreading that truth before a word of the new testament was written.

That is true. I'm not a Gnostic nor promoting Gnostic teachings that Christ never came in the flesh. I'd like to make that clear although Gnostic scriptures make a significant portion of non-Canon scriptures and since I'm using both Canon and non Canon scriptures, the model accounts for both of them.

However, the LLM will make note of contradictions if it finds them between Canon and non-Canon scriptures and I have encountered many instances the LLM did point out these contradictions.

I'm very careful when using LLM to study scriptures.

My 1billion dollar advice: Don't just throw LLM a question only once. Make sure you ask the same question several times, re-worded, and rephrased each time.

Example: Did Jesus promote science? Rephrased/re-worded: Did Jesus encouraged the study of God's creations?

Spoiler alert! the answer is

Spoiler: Spoiler

YES

The Bereans, for example, diligent as they were in studying Scripture, required the input of Christ's disciples in order to properly understand it. And even with Christ's revelation, which the new testament attests to, there were many things that were recorded while others were not. The Spirit works through His people and His written Word and there's a body of beliefs in Christianity that have continuity back to the beginning and those are aligned with the Spirit as well.

Only for a time (temporarily). Ultimately, we should lead others to an actual relationship with the Holy Spirit where they can receive full guidance from.

Teaching the same person or the same audience is not a lifetime work. We should ultimately teach people to receive guidance and answers from the Holy Spirit on their own even if it means greatly reduced revenue from tithes.

1 John 2:27
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

 

[Semper-Fi]

I asked "AI"

“Enoch, an AI-based date-prediction model,
trained on the basis of 24 14C-dated scroll samples.”

The Dead Sea Scrolls, an enormous trove of preserved and
partially-preserved works, contains a total of some 800 scrolls;
roughly 30 percent constitute to biblical texts. New Research
using Al Reveals Dead Sea Scrolls Older Than Previously Thought.

Dating ancient manuscripts using radiocarbon
and AI-based writing style analysis

Dating ancient manuscripts using radiocarbon and AI-based writing style analysis

Determining by means of palaeography the chronology of ancient handwritten manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls is essential for reconstructing the evolution of ideas, but there is an almost complete lack of date-bearing manuscripts. To overcome this problem, we present Enoch, an AI-based...

journals.plos.org

"By applying Bayesian ridge regression on angular and allographic
writing style feature vectors, Enoch could predict 14C-based dates
with varied mean absolute errors (MAEs) of 27.9 to 30.7 years.

In order to explore the viability of the character-shape based dating
approach, the trained Enoch model then computed date predictions
for 135 non-dated scrolls, aligning with 79 percent in paleographic
post-hoc evaluation.

The 14C ranges and Enoch’s style-based predictions are often older
than traditionally assumed paleographic estimates, leading to a new
chronology of the scrolls and the redating of ancient Jewish key texts
that contribute to current debates on Jewish and Christian origins."

-​

Isaiah 8:16 (KJV)​

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

 

[Stephen3141]

If this were the response of a pastor or teacher, I would say that he didn't
have a clue what he was talking about.

What are all the definitions of the words that are being used??

What is "truth"?
What does "scripture" mean??
What texts are you talking about??

Could you please ask the AI tool to put all of its assertions in quotes.

I would not accept this type of discussion from a class on the basic
historic questions of philosophy. Or, from a Christian catechism.

 

[com7fy8]

Jesus' method encouraged reliance on the Holy Spirit for guidance rather than waiting for an official list of scriptures.

Jesus used scriptures. So, I can see this shows that He would have New Testament scriptures.

And we are told how Paul saw Jesus, and later he wrote messages to be read. He claims Jesus gave Him what to write.

So, how do I know the scriptures are the correct ones? After all, not all "church" activity has been reliable. Well, I personally find that the love theology is the same throughout the earlier and later writings. Every scripture can be used by God to help us find out how to be like Jesus and how to love like Jesus.

And yes, the Holy Spirit is the One who has us benefit like this from God's word. So, we have His word which is right, plus the Holy Spirit to produce in us all that God Himself means by His word.

Isaiah 55:11 confirms that God's word "shall" do all that God Himself means by His word.

So, I understand how we need to seek God to have us living how He means His word.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

 

[com7fy8]

I don't even think that Proverbs is to be regarded as guide given the teachings that value material wealth which clearly contradicts the teachings of Jesus.

Would you please give us one example of a Proverbs writing which you claim contradicts Jesus. I am guessing that you have misunderstood the scripture.

solomon seemed to value material wealth while Jesus did not.

Solomon started off valuing God more than wealth. But he messed up.

God gave him the wealth; so this should show that God does not consider wealth to be wrong. But what you make it, how you take it . . . our Apostle Paul says >

"I will not be brought under the power of any." (in 1 Corinthians 6:12)

My take is that Proverbs might say wealth can be good, but keep it in its proper place. This would not be a contradiction, or else why would Jesus say to give the rich man's wealth to the poor? If the wealth is really wrong, He could say burn it up and bury what is left.

So, please give us one example . . . to start off, maybe.

 

[Ophiolite]

My take is that Proverbs might say wealth can be good, but keep it in its proper place. This would not be a contradiction, or else why would Jesus say to give the rich man's wealth to the poor? If the wealth is really wrong, He could say burn it up and bury what is left.

I have no horse in race for whether you or @timewerx are correct about Jesus and Proverbs being in contradiction. I cannot see any way in which this might effect my worldview, or daily life. I do have an interst in the validity of the associated arguments as illustrations of flawed logic, etc.

If I have $500 (or pick a number that fits your perception) then I would say I was not wealthy. If If have $500,000,000 then I would say I am wealthy. An individual dollar is not evidence of wealth. If I give $500 to each of one million people are any of them wealthy? Am I wealthy? Obviously not. Therefore Proverbs is not saying that wealth is good, but is affirming the goodness of distributing wealth, till it is so diluted that wealth no longer exists.

I imagine there are flaws in this argument, but they need to be addressed in order to justify your assertion.

 

[timewerx]

Therefore Proverbs is not saying that wealth is good, but is affirming the goodness of distributing wealth, till it is so diluted that wealth no longer exists.

It sounds like an interpretation that agrees with the teachings of Jesus.

However, many Christians don't see Proverbs in such manner. In fact, in Ecclesiastes, we see a dramatic change of Solomon's sentiments towards wealth. From something like a trophy to something that is meaningless.

 

[Ophiolite]

It sounds like an interpretation that agrees with the teachings of Jesus.

However, many Christians don't see Proverbs in such manner. In fact, in Ecclesiastes, we see a dramatic change of Solomon's sentiments towards wealth. From something like a trophy to something that is meaningless.

OK, but your original remark appeared to say that Jesus was not opposed to wealth, I am saying that is arguably incorrect. You appear to be agreeing, but simultaneously are not modifying, or discarding your original position.

I am not trying to catch you out, but rather I want to clarify what appears to me to be contradictions in your position.

 

[Larniavc]

The model is given the New Testament scriptures to search and analyze and already pre-trained by its developers (not me). I'm a Christian for over 20 years and have read the whole Bible many times conducted deep studies of New testament many years ago, long before "AI" even became a thing. So I'm not doing these out of laziness. I already know the answers to the questions I'm asking. I only needed confirmation or perhaps to test "AI" (or LLMs) of its ability to reason if it can match my Holy Spirit guided studies of the Bible.

Here is the question (more to follow!):

if scriptures can guide us to salvation then why Jesus did not give any command to canonize scriptures but to receive guidance from the spirit of truth instead?

Deepseek's response:

Okay, so I'm trying to figure out why Jesus didn't tell people to canonize scriptures if they can guide us to salvation. The user mentioned that the Bible says God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and James 1:5 about wanting wisdom. Also, there's something about not needing a rule of faith like Tertullian had.

First, I need to understand what it means for scriptures to "guide us to salvation." The user is implying that if the Bible can do this, why didn't Jesus establish a process to make certain which parts are officially recognized (canonized)? Instead, he told people to receive guidance from the Spirit of truth.

I think about how in the early Christian church, there was no single rule or set of criteria for what would become the New Testament. The Gospels and other writings were circulating among communities, but they weren't all considered equal or official right away.

Maybe Jesus didn't need to canonize scriptures because he taught that the Spirit would lead people directly. He emphasized a personal relationship with God through the Spirit (John 14:26), so perhaps he saw the scriptures as a guide but not the ultimate authority. The user's excerpt from Tertullian shows that in early times, there wasn't a clear consensus on what was authoritative.

Also, if Jesus had tried to canonize specific texts, it might have been too soon or without enough agreement among believers about which books were truly inspired. The process of deciding the canon took time and involved debates over various writings' authenticity and value.

Additionally, the Bible itself contains warnings against adding extra teachings (like in Revelation) and emphasizes faith in God's word rather than human traditions. So maybe Jesus knew that leaving it to the Spirit and individual hearts was more effective for people's salvation without imposing a specific set of scriptures.

I should also consider how the concept of canon developed later, influenced by the needs of the church as it grew and needed a unified body of teachings. Before that, communities probably used various scriptures, including Jewish ones, along with their own experiences guided by the Spirit to understand truth.

So in summary, Jesus didn't need to establish a canon because he trusted the Spirit's guidance over any specific set of scriptures. The process of deciding which books were authoritative came later as the church organized and needed a unified message.Jesus did not establish a formal process for canonizing scriptures because his primary focus was on fostering a personal relationship with God through the Holy Spirit, rather than relying solely on written texts (John 14:26). He emphasized that the Spirit would guide believers directly. This approach allowed for flexibility and reliance on individual spiritual experiences.

The early Christian church faced challenges in identifying which writings were authoritative. Without a unified rule of faith like Tertullian's, communities relied on their own understanding guided by the Spirit and existing Jewish scriptures. Over time, as the church grew, the need arose to organize and unify teachings into a recognized canon, which was not part of Jesus' original instruction.

Thus, Jesus' method encouraged reliance on the Holy Spirit for guidance rather than waiting for an official list of scriptures. This approach aligned with his teaching that salvation comes through faith in God, as opposed to human traditions or specific textual authority.

So why did he allow the canonisation in later years? Did the Holy Spirit cease being effective?

 

[timewerx]

but simultaneously are not modifying, or discarding your original position.

THat's true because my understanding of Proverbs is the same as those of many or most Christians.

Wealth is good to the point of luxury and well above the living standards of the majority.

Yet, it doesn't agree with my moral standards and my understanding of Christ's teachings. I've had this conviction since 15 years ago.

Chatgpt AI's default position on the topic have shifted significantly since the last couple weeks and I'm using an empty context (not logged in, using a different browser, and browser cleared of all history, data, and cookies).

IMO, it's getting better at it. It doesn't outright or explicitly tell that a contradiction exist but will tell you that Christ's teachings on wealth is supremely better and also makes exposition on social inequality/injustice, works for the greater good and lastly, works on a spiritual level.

I think the AI delivered a politically-correct version of my conviction. The teachings of Jesus is so much better on wealth (that it would be pointless to even consider the teachings of Solomon over it).

 

[com7fy8]

If I have $500 (or pick a number that fits your perception) then I would say I was not wealthy.

Where you are, perhaps.

If If have $500,000,000 then I would say I am wealthy.

But it would be >

what you make it . . .
how you take it . . .
just don't fake it!!

An individual dollar is not evidence of wealth.

It might depend on what you make of it. It could be a key.

And if we sow anything to the LORD . . . it eventually can be a field to harvest. One might develop a perfect seed, then grow more like it until you have fields to harvest, from that starting seed.

It is what God is able to do with it . . . but in sharing with us. He includes us

If I give $500 to each of one million people are any of them wealthy?

If you mean giving one millionth of the $500 to each person . . . that would be limited, I can see.

Therefore Proverbs is not saying that wealth is good, but is affirming the goodness of distributing wealth,

Hmm . . . I did not think of this . . . I mean > that Proverbs is not one way or the other about wealth . . . but how well you use it . . . wealth or not wealthy. Either way, you can do very well, especially either way being able to do all the good of what is worth more than money.

One minute with a person who knows how to love does me more good, than a billion universes of gold and silver could. So, wealthy or not makes no real difference.

Therefore Proverbs is not saying that wealth is good, but is affirming the goodness of distributing wealth, till it is so diluted that wealth no longer exists.

Well . . . I am not sure it means to spread the wealth until it no longer exists. But you ***i~n~v~e~s~t*** it.