How does the idea that most of Gods creation he will have to burn forever bring glory to God?

[Clare73]

I believe 1 Cor 15:28 that in the end " God will be all in all " it will happen, how it will all work out I do not know, but I know God is love and he does not do abandonment.

Corinthians is addressed to those in Christ who definitely will not be abandoned.

God is just also (2 Th 1:6, 8-10, Dt 32:4, Ps 89:14), and when he judges he will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10).

 

[Hentenza]

I believe 1 Cor 15:28 that in the end " God will be all in all " it will happen, how it will all work out I do not know, but I know God is love and he does not do abandonment.

Demons too? All I can say is WOW .

 

[Jipsah]

What "issue" does the NT raise regarding eternal torment presented by Jesus in Mt 25:46

Torment? In what translation is "torment" used. The common English translation is "punishment", for which being annihilated and never having existed (would describe perfectly. "

Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

If God never knew you, you never existed at all, ever, eternally.

, as well as by John in Rev 14:11?

Taking apocalyptic literature literally is a risky basis for dogma. And I agree with Martin Luther's opinion of the Revelation. "

" My spirit cannot accommodate itself to this book. For me this is reason enough not to think highly of it: Christ is neither taught nor known in it. But to teach Christ, this is the thing which an apostle is bound above all else to do; as Christ says in Acts 1[:8], “You shall be my witnesses.” Therefore I stick to the books which present Christ to me clearly and purely. https://www.universitylutheran.church/luther-on-revelation.htm

Jesus is the only one in the NT to speak (Mt 25:46, Mk 9:42-48) of hell (Gehenna).
We did not know it until he revealed it.

Where the condemned are destroyed.

Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Oh, but it doesn't really mean "destroy", right? Bosh, it says what it says.
Plus, there's no eternal life in hell. The wages of sin is death. Eternal life is the gift of God, not a wat of keeping oine alive to be tortured more. The damnationist doctrine of eternal life in hell makes a mockery of the gift of God to the redeemed.

 

[Jipsah]

I wasn't making a point, I was asking questions in response to someone else's point in the hope that they would clarify their point.

I found the notion that St. Paul wasn't made to do anything against his will seems to ignore the fact that God knocked him down in the road, struck him blind, and denounced Paul for persecuting Him kind of belies the notion that Paul was right in sync with God's will from start to finish. <Laugh>

 

[Jipsah]

Demons too? All I can say is WOW .

Yeah, O mean, not even God can redeem a demon. I mean, He didn't even create them... oh, wait...

 

[David Lamb]

Yeah, O mean, not even God can redeem a demon. I mean, He didn't even create them... oh, wait...

He could if He wanted to. Not sure if you are saying that God didn't create demons, or if those little words, " oh wait" show that you believe He did create them.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

What "issue" does the NT raise regarding eternal torment presented by Jesus in Mt 25:46, as well as by John in Rev 14:11?

Jesus is the only one in the NT to speak (Mt 25:46, Mk 9:42-48) of hell (Gehenna).
We did not know it until he revealed it.

If you believe that "hell" was not revealed till Jesus, why would God let all of humanity up till Jesus not know that if they did not follow Jesus they would burn forever? Eternal hell is no place in the old Testament at all, that sounds kind of cruel of God not telling them they would burn forever and not just that their mortal body would die as was told to Adam.

 

[Clare73]

Torment? In what translation is "torment" used. The common English translation is "punishment", for which being annihilated and never having existed would describe perfectly. "

"Torment" (basanos) is found in Lk 16:23, 28.

"Punishment" (kolasis) is found in 1 Jn 4:18.

Matthew 7:23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

If God never knew you, you never existed at all, ever, eternally.

I guess Jesus got it wrong when he said, "Many will say to me on that day. . .Then I will tell them plainly. . ." (Mt 7:22-23)

Where the condemned are destroyed.
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Oh, but it doesn't really mean "destroy", right?

In the Greek, destroy (apollumi) means ruin, loss of well-being; e.g.,
Lk 5:37 - marring of wine skins,
Lk 15:4, 6 - lost sheep,
Lk 15:4 - lost son,
Jn 6:27 - perishing food,
1 Pe 1:7 - perishing gold,
Mt 2:13, 27:20, 8:25, 22:7 - persons' loss of well being.

 

[Clare73]

If you believe that "hell" was not revealed till Jesus, why would God let all of humanity up till Jesus not know that if they did not follow Jesus they would burn forever? Eternal hell is no place in the old Testament at all, that sounds kind of cruel of God not telling them they would burn forever and not just that their mortal body would die as was told to Adam.

You'll have to take that up with God. . .it's above my pay grade.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

You'll have to take that up with God. . .it's above my pay grade.

Or maybe your tradition has it wrong.

 

[Clare73]

Or maybe your tradition has it wrong.

Irrelevant to my statement. . .

 

[Neogaia777]

If creation is to bring about Gods glory, how does it bring God glory, if he knows that most of his creation he will have to burn forever, but he goes ahead and creates anyway knowing what the outcome will be. All the pain and suffering that people go through, wars, famine, slavery, human trafficking, and all the rest of this fallen world, and in the end, a small fraction of creation comes out good in the end, and people say that this if for Gods glory?
Now what if Jesus was really the savior of the cosmos as John 4:42 says and what if God was really reconciling the world to himself not counting mens trespasses against them, 2 Cor 5:19 but the scripture that says where sin abounds mercy abounds even more.Rom 5:20. Now if Gods plan was to have a creation that would love him out of free will and the last 6000 years and till the end, were Gods way of bringing about the result that all his creation would worship him out of free will and in the end God will be all in all 1 Cor 15:28. Sin and death are no more, not just stuck in a place that God has to keep going forever and listen to the screams of his people for all eternity, what if God in the end would make a new heaven and new earth and the old is done and all is new, his whole creation living in him out of free will love, no more sin and death its gone forever.
I ask you how does God losing most of his creation and then having to burn it forever bring glory to God?
Does not the idea that God knew what he was doing, and had a plan, and had all that it would take to accomplish the plan, to bring all his creation into a love with him, forever and sin and death are no more, and God will be all in all. Does this not bring more glory to God?

Some people's fates are sealed, and they always have been, and they cannot be changed by anybody. But we don't know who is who ever, or what side/end their going to wind up on, and so we are just called to love everybody, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt always, etc.

How does it bring glory to God? Well, it doesn't really, but it just might make some of us much more in awe of Him once we see how the judgements are decided or are handed out/up/down on the other side of eternity for everybody, etc.

But you also need to understand that some of these people are always necessary for a time, in order that some others might get to go to Heaven always, and that is why they always are, or do always exist for a time, but their "eternity" is always in just repeating these exact same kind of existences here each and every single time, and that is forever always, just as it has always been from forever in the past always, etc, and it can't ever be changed ever by or for anybody, etc. But we don't ever know who's who ever though, and we don't have that level of knowledge, and so we are just called to love everybody, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Some people's fates are sealed, and they always have been, and they cannot be changed by anybody. But we don't know who is who ever, or what side/end their going to wind up on, and so we are just called to love everybody, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt always, etc.

How does it bring glory to God? Well, it doesn't really, but it just might make some of us much more in awe of Him once we see how the judgements are decided or are handed out/up/down on the other side of eternity for everybody, etc.

But you also need to understand that some of these people are always necessary for a time, in order that some others might get to go to Heaven always, and that is why they always are, or do always exist for a time, but their "eternity" is always in just repeating these exact same kind of existences here each and every single time, and that is forever always, just as it has always been from forever in the past always, etc, and it can't ever be changed ever by or for anybody, etc. But we don't ever know who's who ever though, and we don't have that level of knowledge, and so we are just called to love everybody, etc.

God Bless.

If peoples fates are sealed then why do anything at all ? It seems like being a con man, telling people come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest, when under you way of thinking their fate is sealed, that's not being honest, and I do not think even with this view would say Jesus is not honest.
The notion that it brings God more glory that most suffer eternal torture and those few who do not are so much more appreciative of what he has done, is pure hog wash, the God who saves all his creation and loses none has much more glory than the one who either can't get the job done or who doesn't care if he creates people just to torture forever.

 

[Clare73]

If peoples fates are sealed then why do anything at all ? It seems like being a con man, telling people come to me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest, when under you way of thinking their fate is sealed, that's not being honest, and I do not think even with this view would say Jesus is not honest.

No one comes to God unless they are enabled by the Holy Spirit (Jn 6:65).
All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). . .not all come, therefore, not all are given to Jesus.
Jesus shall lose none of all that the Father has given him (Jn 6:39).

The invitation is to those hearers whom God enables.

The notion that it brings God more glory that most suffer eternal torture and those few who do not are so much more appreciative of what he has done, is pure hog wash,

Sorry you see Ro 9:22-23 as hogwash.

God who saves all his creation and loses none has much more glory

Sez who? . . .not God. . .your're creating God in your own image.

God is not only love, mercy, etc., he is also justice. . .and all, not just some, of his attributes are glorified in creation.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

No one comes to God unless they are enabled by the Holy Spirit (Jn 6:65).
All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). . .not all come, therefore, not all are given to Jesus.
Jesus shall lose none of all that the Father has given him (Jn 6:39).

The invitation is to those hearers whom God enables.

Sorry you see Ro 9:22-23 as hogwash.

Sez who? . . .not God. . .your're creating God in your own image.

God is not only love, mercy, etc., he is also justice. . .and all, not just some, of his attributes are glorified in creation.

John 13:3 " Father had given all things into his hands- come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father"
This tells us who will come " all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus" so according to John 13:3 all were given to Jesus and all will return to the Father. Jesus loses none that the Father has given him. Do you believe John 13:3 that explains who are those that are given to Jesus.
As for Rom 9:22 the English word destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is a derivative of apollumi, which means no longer able to be used for what was intended, not that it no longer exists. Its like in Romans with the lump of clay some used for noble purposes some for common use, not all are part of the ruling kingdom of Jesus many will be the subjects of that kingdom, those who live for self and reject or were ignorant of Jesus will be subjects, they are no longer able to be what they were created for , but will be commom, while those who follow Jesus become co-heirs with Jesus and will rule and reign with him.
Gods mercy and love are far stronger than mans sin and he has a plan to reconcile the world through Jesus to himself.
So maybe its not me who is creating God im my own image but those who think God will torture his beloved creation for all eternity, God does not do abandonment, that's a human thing.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Words, Fables, Fairy Tales, and multitudes of more words in the world sinful and wicked.

Permitting those who deceive others willfully and boldly to have conversations in any assembly of Jesus' People is not permitted by Yahweh, but here (on internet) seemingly cannot be stopped. Only do not partake in so-called discussions or debates or instructions or rebukes or any such with them. We cannot stop them talking with other reprobates, but must not take part with them according to God's Own Purpose and Will.

Who is the judge of what is fables , fairy tales ect? Are not you doing the same thing the Pharisee's did in Jesus's day, they studies the scriptures and knew them by memory and yet they missed the very God they said they were following, when He shows up they kill him.
I read scripture, and with the help of the original Greek meanings of words, and see Christian Universal Redemption all throughout, I believe that God was reconciling the cosmos to himself in Jesus and his plan will not fail, His will is that all come to the knowledge of the truth, and his will can't be undone or thwarted by any man or any other created thing.
You read scripture and believe God will torture most of his creation for all eternity because mans will is stronger than Gods will, and we have all these people who have different ideas sayin that if you just follow their way you are in and everyone else is out.
I believe that God creating people to torture them for all eternity is a fable, fairy tale, others say that God can't get his will because mans will trumps Gods will, again fairy tails.
What I know is truth is that God says his will is that none perish, as in Adam all die as in Christ all will live, God was reconciling the cosmos to himself through Jesus, Jesus came to save the world not judge the world, and Jesus is the savior of the cosmos, not a potentiel savior.
I believe we should let God be the judge, if fear of being torture forever brings you closer to God and helps with behavior modification so that you have less to give account for at the judgement, well that's good for you.
For me the idea from scripture that all are the body of Jesus and that for all eternity his whole of humanity are my family, I will love my enemy and pray for them, because they will not be my enemy for long, the hungry and week and vulnerable I will help, they are the body of Jesus, most do not know now because they can't see past the darkness, but someday they too will see Jesus for who he is and as Phil 2:10-11 says every knee will bow and every tongue will gladly confess that Jesus is Lord, God has a plan and nothing can thwart his plan. God will be all in all.

 

[Jipsah]

Words, Fables, Fairy Tales, and multitudes of more words in the world sinful and wicked.

Permitting those who deceive others willfully and boldly to have conversations in any assembly of Jesus' People is not permitted by Yahweh, but here (on internet) seemingly cannot be stopped. Only do not partake in so-called discussions or debates or instructions or rebukes or any such with them. We cannot stop them talking with other reprobates, but must not take part with them according to God's Own Purpose and Will.

That kind of translates to "God hates people who don't agree with me"; doesn't it? Of course, that can easily be turned around to fire the other way, can't it?

 

[Jipsah]

I read scripture, and with the help of the original Greek meanings of words, and see Christian Universal Redemption all throughout,

I don't do Greek. I'm only fluent in English; I never even learned enough Korean to be able to make sentences in real time. I have to stick with English translations, but I trust that the folks who did them knew their jobs pretty well. <Laugh>

Having said that, I find the Scriptural basis for un iversal redemption to be compelling. You've posted most if not all of these before, but they bear repeating. Here goes:

“The Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14) Yeah, the stock answer is that "world" Doesn't Really Mean "world", but just bits of it.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of our God our savior; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:3-6, KJV) Stock answer, "all" Doesn't Really Mean "all", it Really Means "some".

Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) And again, the phrase "the whole world" Really Means " "a small percentage of the world".

Jesus “did not come to judge the world but to save the world.” (John 12:47) And again, that tricksty word in Greek (whatever it is) that is translated "world" Doesn't Really Mean "world". Makes you wonder how the Greeks ever managed to make themselves understood even with other Greeks, doesn't it? None of their words ever seem to Really Mean what they say.

“Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.” (Heb. 2:9) Of course, as we should know by now, "everyone" can't Really Mean "everyone". It Really Means "a few".


“Love never fails.” (1 Cor. 13:8) Except, apparently, when it does, which is most of the time.

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, Who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach.” (1 Tim. 4:9-11) And again, "all" Really Means "some", right? We're getting beter at understanding how Greek works by now, aren't we? When it says "all" or "everyone", it Really Means "some", or "a few".

“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation of all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.” (Rom. 5:18) All vs. Some again, KInd of a recurring pattern, innit?

“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) But of course, God stands helpless again the might of the all-conquering Free Will of corrupt and fallen humanity.

“God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.” (2 Cor. 5:19, 20) Apparently St. Paul just got this wrong.

“Creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” (Rom. 8:20, 21) Dunno how ther damnationists manage to gainsay this, but at this point I don't really care. Probably just "nuh-uh".

“Since by man came death, by man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all died, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22) And again, "all" Doesn't Really Mean "all", but we've all grokked that by now, haven't we?

There are a scad of others, but we know how the scam works by now, don't we?

The net-net is that God Wins, end of.

 

[Clare73]

John 13:3 " Father had given all things into his hands- come forth from the Father and was going back to the Father"
This tells us who will come " all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus" so according to John 13:3 all were given to Jesus and all will return to the Father. Jesus loses none that the Father has given him. Do you believe John 13:3 that explains who are those that are given to Jesus.
As for Rom 9:22 the English word destruction is the Greek word apoleia, which is a derivative of apollumi, which means no longer able to be used for what was intended, not that it no longer exists.

Agreed. . .

Its like in Romans with the lump of clay some used for noble purposes some for common use, not all are part of the ruling kingdom of Jesus many will be the subjects of that kingdom, those who live for self and reject or were ignorant of Jesus will be subjects, they are no longer able to be what they were created for , but will be commom, while those who follow Jesus become co-heirs with Jesus and will rule and reign with him.

Gods mercy and love are far stronger than mans sin and he has a plan to reconcile the world through Jesus to himself.
So maybe its not me who is creating God im my own image but those who think God will torture his beloved creation for all eternity, God does not do abandonment, that's a human thing.
John 13:3 " Father had given all things into his hands-

Yes, the execution of all that God ordained. . .and God ordained that whose who believed in Jesus would be saved and those who did not would be condemned (Jn 3:18).

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Agreed. . .


Yes, the execution of all that God ordained. . .and God ordained that whose who believed in Jesus would be saved and those who did not would be condemned (Jn 3:18).

Yes I agree, but what I know is false is that God tortures his creation for all eternity for finite sins, God is bringing restoration/ reconciliation to all his creation, he is after us our true self not our mortal body that is going to die as Adam did, the death of our mortal body is not to great that Gods hands are tied, he just can't get the job done after our mortal body dies.