Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

[JulieB67]

t would be helpful if you posted scripture to support your claims.

No offense but it didn't work the first time I posted scripture. And they are not my claims they are the Word of God.

You stated repentance was not needed for Christ's ability to forgive us yet he constantly urged the churches that had fallen, to repent. I thought you might have known the scriptures.

Revelation 2:2 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars"

Revelation 2:3 "And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. (Christian church for sure)

Revelation 2:4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love

Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

This is just one example. He tells all but 2 churches I think to repent. Christian churches.

 

[A New Dawn]

No offense but it didn't work the first time I posted scripture. And they are not my claims they are the Word of God.

You stated repentance was not needed for Christ's ability to forgive us yet he constantly urged the churches that had fallen, to repent. I thought you might have known the scriptures.

Revelation 2:2 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars"

Revelation 2:3 "And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. (Christian church for sure)

Revelation 2:4 "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love

Revelation 2:5 "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

This is just one example. He tells all but 2 churches I think to repent. Christian churches.

I didn’t say anything of the kind. I have bent over backwards to make it clear that repentance IS necessary for a right relationship with God. What I said that you seem to be ignoring is that all of our sins were forgiven by the same act of sacrifice by Christ. Christ forgave all our sins on the cross. Even though we continue to sin, in order to be in a right relationship with Christ, we need to confess and repent (that means acknowledging that we have sinned and agree with God that they are sins and put them off.). Nowhere have I said anything different. And if you look in the posts to others on this very thread, you will see I said the very same thing you preached to me. So, as I said, reading my posts is something you need to do before accusing me of something.

And what I asked you to clarify in a previous post was why you posted a scripture that did not appear to speak to my post without commentary. I am not going to try to read your mind and guess why you are posting something.

 

[JulieB67]

didn’t say anything of the kind. I have bent over backwards to make it clear that repentance IS necessary for a right relationship with God. What I said that you seem to be ignoring is that all of our sins were forgiven by the same act of sacrifice by Christ.

Sorry, I misunderstood you from the beginning. I apologize. I got confused over your statement about the second part of the verse being directed towards the sins of the OT Jews and went from there. And then assumed you meant future sins were forgiven regardless of one's repentance.

 

[fhansen]

I’m not doing the fight if the verses. Either respond to the one I posted or comment on the ones you posted. I can’t read your mind.

The verses speak plainly enough for themselves-of how our works are counted for us.

 

[fhansen]

So is not by the grace of God that we have been saved? I posit to you that if we could save ourselves by how we live then Jesus sacrifice was in vein. Paul himself defines himself as a wretched man? Do you know what that means?

It's only by the grace of God that you become a slave to righteounsess that leads to life instead of a slave to sin that results in death. It's by the grace of God that you can overcome the deeds of the flesh that otherwise condemn you.
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

That's why Paul tells us in Rom 7:25 that Christ is the answer to his wretched condition! Or why he tells us in Rom 6:22 that holiness leads to eternal life.

 

[fhansen]

Not one person here even remotely suggested that the new covenant is a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous.

You just did, in this very post:

But, firstly, man CAN’T be righteous, only Christ is righteous. Christ’s righteousness is what pays for our sins. We, in essence, wear his righteousness as a cloak, we are not made righteous by His sacrifice. We still sin, but those sins are paid for by his sacrifice. He doesn’t have to sacrifice himself again to pay for our new sins.

John says man can-and must be-righteous:
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Depending on one's understanding of the doctrine of Sola fide, the following are the equivalent of reprieves from man's obligation to be rigtheous:
1) not sins, past, present, and future, are counted against a believer such that no future sin could ever separate one from God
and/or:
2) a believer is given a sort of make-believe vicarious strictly declared righteousness that precludes him form having to actually be righteous and live accordingly

So…to say that a believer is either forgiven of all unrighteousness past, prestm, and future, or that he's declared to be righteous when he is not-or both- in these views man need not actually be righteous in order to be seen as righteous-or justified- in God’s eyes.

When we received the gift of salvation by grace through faith, we were created unto good works in Christ. This is not to work to contribute to our salvation, but in gratitude to Him who gave His life for us. But we who have been saved also have the benefit of the Holy Spirit guiding us to becoming conformed to the image of Christ. Paul specifically states we shouldn’t sin more so grace can abound more, but when we DO sin, and we all DO sin, that sin is covered by Christ’s sacrifice and God’s grace. We don’t do good works to contribute to our salvation.

The change in us that you speak of is part of our justification-and it's the reason we begin to do good and overcome sin. It's to become Christlike, to begin to love as He does, a gift of grace (Rom 5:5). Without works, "works of grace" prepared for us in advance such as those referred to in Eph 2:10, or the work of overcoming sin (Rom 8:12-14) there's no salvation.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

To presume that this righteousness is guaranteed to "happen" to us apart from our willing participation or cooperation in this work of God's, or to presume that a believer can't turn permanently back away from God, is to ignore Scripture, and real-life experience. The battle of good over evil rages on within all believers even while they're now equipped to win it-but the outcome, as to how we did with all we've been given, will be weighed by the Just Judge at the end of the day. The Parable of the Talents or Bags of Gold sheds light on this matter.

 

[Hentenza]

It's only by the grace of God that you become a slave to righteounsess that leads to life instead of a slave to sin that results in death. It's by the grace of God that you can overcome the deeds of the flesh that otherwise condemn you.
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

That's why Paul tells us in Rom 7:25 that Christ is the answer to his wretched condition! Or why he tells us in Rom 6:22 that holiness leads to eternal life.

You are almost there. Romans 5-7 speak of the detriment of the law and the contrast with the Spirit. Chapter 8 finishes that teaching.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.

bible.com

See the therefore? Those who believe are in Christ and walk in the Spirit, however we are still imperfect humans and continue to sin. Follow this teaching with a study of repentance. Every day in my prayers I repent of any sins that I might have committed that day or any day. Paul is still in the flesh so he still sins. That is his teaching, Paul repents. Do you still sin brother?

“If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all | New American Standard Bible - NAS

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all

bible.com

 

[A New Dawn]

You just did, in this very post:

John says man can-and must be-righteous:
"Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister." 1 John 3:7-10

Depending on one's understanding of the doctrine of Sola fide, the following are the equivalent of reprieves from man's obligation to be rigtheous:
1) not sins, past, present, and future, are counted against a believer such that no future sin could ever separate one from God
and/or:
2) a believer is given a sort of make-believe vicarious strictly declared righteousness that precludes him form having to actually be righteous and live accordingly

So…to say that a believer is either forgiven of all unrighteousness past, prestm, and future, or that he's declared to be righteous when he is not-or both- in these views man need not actually be righteous in order to be seen as righteous-or justified- in God’s eyes.


The change in us that you speak of is part of our justification-and it's the reason we begin to do good and overcome sin. It's to become Christlike, to begin to love as He does, a gift of grace (Rom 5:5). Without works, "works of grace" prepared for us in advance such as those referred to in Eph 2:10, or the work of overcoming sin (Rom 8:12-14) there's no salvation.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

To presume that this righteousness is guaranteed to "happen" to us apart from our willing participation or cooperation in this work of God's, or to presume that a believer can't turn permanently back away from God, is to ignore Scripture, and real-life experience. The battle of good over evil rages on within all believers even while they're now equipped to win it-but the outcome, as to how we did with all we've been given, will be weighed by the Just Judge at the end of the day. The Parable of the Talents or Bags of Gold sheds light on this matter.

I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

Our works are as filthy rags. To suggest that we can do ANYTHING to contribute to our salvation is beyond ludicrous.

 

[fhansen]

You are almost there. Romans 5-7 speak of the detriment of the law and the contrast with the Spirit. Chapter 8 finishes that teaching.

“Therefore there is now no condemnation at all for those who are in Christ Jesus.”

We have to understand why there is now no condenmnation:
"...He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us..." Rom 8:3-4

Because of what He did we no longer need be enslaved to the sin that condemns us. So,again:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Who is a child of God? One who overcomes sin, one who loves to put it best.

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:13-21

 

[fhansen]

I said absolutely nothing of the sort.

Our works are as filthy rags. To suggest that we can do ANYTHING to contribute to our salvation is beyond ludicrous.

God contributes, we cooperate in that work. Sin is a matter of the will-and united with God, now grafted into the Vine, we can triumph over it even as the complete triumph isn't realized until the next life when we meet "face to face" and the bond is perfected.The only alternative is that it's now ok to remain in our sins-and the new covenant is a reprieve from our obligation to overcome them to any degree.

 

[Hentenza]

We have to understand why there is now no condenmnation:
"...He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us..." Rom 8:3-4

Because of what He did we no longer need be enslaved to the sin that condemns us. So,again:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

Who is a child of God? One who overcomes sin, one who loves to put it best.

"You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:13-21

Again, do you still sin, brother?

 

[A New Dawn]

God contributes, we cooperate in that work. Sin is a matter of the will-and united with God, now grafted into the Vine, we can triumph over it even as the complete triumph isn't realized until the next life when we meet "face to face" and the bond is perfected.The only alternative is that it's now ok to remain in our sins-and the new covenant is a reprieve from our obligation to overcome them to any degree.

Justification and sanctification are two separate things.

 

[fhansen]

Justification and sanctification are two separate things.

Nope, it's been well understood that they're part and parcel of the same thing, with justification being the beginning, the infusion of justice/righteousness, of God's life in us, the life of grace that, itself, constitutes the state of justice that man was made for-and is lost without- as opposed to the state of injustice that Adam initiated for humankind, a state of alienation from God. Man was made for communion with Him. Sanctification is the outworking and continued strengthening and growth in that justice/righteousness/holiness/sanctity/relationship, which increases as we do His will, exercising our gifts, "investing" the grace given while drawing nearer and nearer to Him and to His likeness in us. The Reformers had to separate the two in order to make their doctriine of Sola Fide with imputed righteousness work, but it never did. Here're some sound teachings on this BTW:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45 (Rom 6:22)

 

[Hentenza]

Nope, it's been well understood that they're part and parcel of the same thing, with justification being the beginning, the infusion of justice/righteousness, of God's life in us, the life of grace that, itself, constitutes the state of justice that man was made for-and is lost without- as opposed to the state of injustice that Adam initiated for humankind, a state of alienation from God. Man was made for communion with Him. Sanctification is the outworking and continued strengthening and growth in that justice/righteousness/holiness/sanctity/relationship, which increases as we do His will, exercising our gifts, "investing" the grace given while drawing nearer and nearer to Him and to His likeness in us. The Reformers had to separate the two in order to make their doctriine of Sola Fide with imputed righteousness work, but it never did. Here're some sound teachings on this BTW:

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45 (Rom 6:22)

Do you still sin, brother?

 

[ozso]

Do you still sin, brother?

The question is, do you still enjoy sin? Do you shrug it off, saying everyone does it. What I'm doing isn't so bad. Compared to what so-in-so does it's not so bad. Compared to doing such-in-such it's not so bad. Sin grives the Spirit. He who has the Spirit therefore is grieved by sin. And it's not just grieving the sins of commission, but the sins of omission. The good you should and could be doing but aren't.

 

[Jacque_Pierre22]

the devil kept me away from reading the book of Matthew somehow and following what Jesus said. All of these debates like Calvinism vs Arminianism whether we have free will, works vs faith, faith alone, whether the Lord's Supper is real, all of it served to distract me, endless Bible prophecy stuff. Even today all people ever talk about is Bible prophecy and theology, most of the sermons should talk about this, how this is not a game and how at any moment you can do an unpardonable sin. When Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees they blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that was it for them, there was no need to pray for them anymore. I read stuff like conspiracy on the Vatican, then I got into Reformed stuff on prophecy and the book of Daniel and Revelation, but the point of the post was to point people in the right direction that Satan doesn't want people to hear, to get saved you need to read Matthew and follow what Jesus says which is the 10 commandments, then read the first 5-6 books of the Bible, and then the NT will make sense and you can "persevere." All of these debates only served to confuse my mind into fatalism, antinomianism, nihilism, I started trying to read about theology etc, it was all unnecessary. there are still today people who spend all of their time on different things like the nephilim and the antichrist or whatever, and that's all I see people doing, there are people who might be young and read it and stop wasting their time on other stuff, if you follow Jesus and believe what he's saying like he says then you'll receive the Holy Spirit, but if your too far gone, the Holy Spirit is not going to dwell in a white-washed tomb, and then it's too late for you, and that's the goal of the devil. I had devils growling in my room when I was home alone as a kid, not once did I understand why, whether I was playing warcraft 3 or wasting time. literally. I thought there was maybe a raccoon in the walls. it was because they see you as an easy target, you're not doing what you should be doing , which is what I said above.

 

[ozso]

Justification and sanctification are two separate things.

Justification and sanctification are symbiotic.

 

[ozso]

the devil kept me away from reading the book of Matthew somehow and following what Jesus said. All of these debates like Calvinism vs Arminianism whether we have free will, works vs faith, faith alone, whether the Lord's Supper is real, all of it served to distract me, endless Bible prophecy stuff. Even today all people ever talk about is Bible prophecy and theology, most of the sermons should talk about this, how this is not a game and how at any moment you can do an unpardonable sin. When Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees they blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that was it for them, there was no need to pray for them anymore. I read stuff like conspiracy on the Vatican, then I got into Reformed stuff on prophecy and the book of Daniel and Revelation, but the point of the post was to point people in the right direction that Satan doesn't want people to hear, to get saved you need to read Matthew and follow what Jesus says which is the 10 commandments, then read the first 5-6 books of the Bible, and then the NT will make sense and you can "persevere." All of these debates only served to confuse my mind into fatalism, antinomianism, nihilism, I started trying to read about theology etc, it was all unnecessary. there are still today people who spend all of their time on different things like the nephilim and the antichrist or whatever, and that's all I see people doing, there are people who might be young and read it and stop wasting their time on other stuff, if you follow Jesus and believe what he's saying like he says then you'll receive the Holy Spirit, but if your too far gone, the Holy Spirit is not going to dwell in a white-washed tomb, and then it's too late for you, and that's the goal of the devil. I had devils growling in my room when I was home alone as a kid, not once did I understand why, whether I was playing warcraft 3 or wasting time. literally. I thought there was maybe a raccoon in the walls. it was because they see you as an easy target, you're not doing what you should be doing , which is what I said above.

Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Since sin can only be pardoned through Christ, the unpardonable sin is rejection of Christ.

 

[A New Dawn]

Justification and sanctification are symbiotic.

Justification is a one time claim by Jesus that turns your heart to Him, changing your nature from fallen to redeemed. We don’t participate in that event. God is the author of my faith.

Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit in us helping to conform us to the image of Christ. This is the part of salvation we participate in.

 

[ozso]

Justification is a one time claim by Jesus that turns your heart to Him, changing your nature from fallen to redeemed. We don’t participate in that event. God is the author of my faith.

How does justification take place then? Do we just wake up from bed one day justified?

Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit in us helping to conform us to the image of Christ. This is the part of salvation we participate in.