Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

[ozso]

Some of the Reformed teachings on justification, especially, have served to muddy the waters on understanding exactly what God wants for and from us. In the ancient churches, once justified, once grafted into the Vine, we begin to partake of and share in God's nature. Our "job" is to continue to value and walk in that relationship, in which case it grows in strength and conviction. IOW, we grow in faith, hope, and, most importantly, love, and sin is increasingly excluded as a result. That's the path we're meant to be on.

There's no sin that cannot be repented of. Unrepentance, itself, is the ultimate sin as it means failure to acknowledge our own sinfulness and our need for God, for His mercy and His ability to overcome that sin in us as we become His people and He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts.

I recently listed to a OSAS debate, and even the person arguing for OSAS said only in 30% of scripture does being saved and salvation have to do with what happens to us after we die. The other 70% is about the salvation we receive during this lifetime and the benefits we receive from salvation in this lifetime. Meaning the bulk of salvation is imparted to us through our life in and through Christ as our Lord.

 

[JulieB67]

since I am not seeing the issue you are having with the point I made in my previous post,

You stated that the part of the verse was directed towards the sins of the OT Jews and that's not what those verses state at all. And I provided them.

But no, not interested in starting a thread was just curious where you derived that belief. But as you said it was from a commentary. So I guess that's my answer.

 

[ozso]

It’s simpler than all that. No one can know with 100% certitude that they’re numbered among either the elect-or the apostate-we cannot predict our own perseverance. We just turn to God in faith, remain turned to Him, picking up our cross daily and following Him to the best we can with our grace/Spirit-enabled ability, repenting and turning back to Him if we’ve backslidden, and let Him determine how we did, with what we’ve been given, at the end of the day.

I disagree with that because in the conclusion of 1 John, John tells us:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Now we might not know whether or not we will persevere to the end. But that passage indicates we can know our current status.

 

[fhansen]

I disagree with that because in the conclusion of 1 John, John tells us:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

Now we might not know whether or not we will persevere to the end. But that passage indicates we can know our current status.

Well it's kind of redundant isn't it? If we have eternal life then we will necessarily persevere. Either way, we need to read all of John as well as the rest of Scripture to see that our salvation is directly tied to how we live our lives. John is adamant that if we're entangled in sin then we'd need to question whether or not we're one of His to begin with, whether or not 1 John 5:13 even applies to us IOW.

 

[A New Dawn]

I’d consider Gal 6: ‘a man reaps what he sows, to the spirit or to the flesh’, as well as the first letters of John where we understand that those who are close to God are those who are also furthest from sin. Whether or not we persevere, meaning whether or not we’re among the elect, is finally discernible-simply- by whether or not we actually do persevere to the end. No need or benefit in putting the cart ahead of the horse. We can’t excuse sin by saying that I know, for certain, that God will cause me to ultimately triumph over sin simply because I say that I’m one of His. To the extent that we sin, we demonstrate that there are things that are more important to us than God-and pleasing Him; we show that we don't yet really know Him so well (John 17:3).

OK, so you believe in a works-based salvation, I don’t. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[A New Dawn]

You stated that the part of the verse was directed towards the sins of the OT Jews and that's not what those verses state at all. And I provided them.

But no, not interested in starting a thread was just curious where you derived that belief. But as you said it was from a commentary. So I guess that's my answer.

I was talking about the initial post of mine you responded to which started this little aside. You took issue with me saying that all sins were nailed to the cross, not just past sins. That is what I’m not understanding. And I don’t know how the verse you quoted spoke to what I said initially, not the follow-up response.

 

[ozso]

Well it's kind of redundant isn't it? If we have eternal life then we will necessarily persevere. Either way, we need to read all of John as well as the rest of Scripture to see that our salvation is directly tied to how we live our lives. John is adamant that if we're entangled in sin then we'd need to question whether or not we're one of His to begin with, whether or not 1 John 5:13 even applies to us IOW.

Yes, 1 John is considered the "litmus test" of being saved. As in whether or not you are meeting the standards John has set forth.

 

[JulieB67]

You took issue with me saying that all sins were nailed to the cross, not just past sins. That is what I’m not understanding. And I don’t know how the verse you quoted spoke to what I said initially, not the follow-up response.

You stated that all sins were nailed to the cross, not just past sins. And I responded with this

Curious to what your belief is with this verse?


Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

And you stated that part of the verse was directed towards the sins of the OT Jews. And I then pointed out that the verses do not state that at all. And provided them for context.

Not sure why you're not understanding my point.

But I'll move on if you want...

 

[A New Dawn]

You stated that all sins were nailed to the cross, not just past sins. And I responded with this

Curious to what your belief is with this verse?


Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

And you stated that part of the verse was directed towards the sins of the OT Jews. And I then pointed out that the verses do not state that at all. And provided them for context.

Not sure why you're not understanding my point.

But I'll move on if you want...

I understand the course of the discussion, what I’m asking is what your issue is with my statement (about all sins being nailed to the cross) and how what you posted is speaking to what I said. It doesn’t appear to be related, IMO, except that it has some of the same words in it. I mean, I can’t answer when you post a scripture out of the blue with no context or commentary behind it.

 

[Hentenza]

Well it's kind of redundant isn't it? If we have eternal life then we will necessarily persevere. Either way, we need to read all of John as well as the rest of Scripture to see that our salvation is directly tied to how we live our lives. John is adamant that if we're entangled in sin then we'd need to question whether or not we're one of His to begin with, whether or not 1 John 5:13 even applies to us IOW.

Hi brother,

Only issue I have with your post is that if salvation is dependent on how we live our lives then no one would be saved. Salvation is strictly by the grace of God through faith not by our own works.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jes | New American Standard Bible -

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jes

bible.com

Paul tells us in 1 Cor 3 how are works are counted against of for us based on how we build our foundation and how we live. The rewards received after death are based on our behavior but at the end we are still safe but with no rewards.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can | New American Standard Bib

According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. For no one can

bible.com

 

[fhansen]

OK, so you believe in a works-based salvation, I don’t. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

What I don't believe, is that the new covenant is a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, but it is in fact the means to finally accomplishing that very thing. IOW, we are not justified by anything we can do but freely justified by God as we turn to Him in faith. That justification includes a whole new way of life, forgiven of past sins and given new hearts and spirits, and now united with the Holy Spirit, as man is meant to be. From that point, man is enjoined to walk in that justice, in that righteousness that the law and prophets only testify to but cannot accomplish, as we remain in Him.

 

[fhansen]

Only issue I have with your post is that if salvation is dependent on how we live our lives then no one would be saved. Salvation is strictly by the grace of God through faith not by our own works.

It's in how we live our lives by virtue of our connection to the Vine, walking by the Spirit. That relationship, that state, is man's justice, his righteousness, and the only authentic source of true righteousness. And the alternative to your statement here is that man could sin freely and wantonly and still expect to make it into heaven as long as he believes and Scripture is quite definitively opposed to that concept.

 

[fhansen]

Paul tells us in 1 Cor 3 how are works are counted against of for us based on how we build our foundation and how we live. The rewards received after death are based on our behavior but at the end we are still safe but with no rewards.

Ron 2:7, 6:22, 8:12-14

 

[JulieB67]

what I’m asking is what your issue is with my statement

You're still not understanding my point. The verse I posted was not out of the blue. It was to prove that the remission of sins are for those that are "past" That's what the verse states. I even posted the verses above and below to include all of the context to show that it was not directed towards the sins of the OT Jews. It's talking about sin period. And the remission of sin. When you stated that Christ died for all sin, not just the past -it seemed to imply that you believe all future sin is forgiven without repentance. If I read that wrong than sorry I was mistaken.

Certainly upon repentance, future sins are forgiven.

 

[A New Dawn]

What I don't believe, is that the new covenant is a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous, but it is in fact the means to finally accomplishing that very thing. IOW, we are not justified by anything we can do but freely justified by God as we turn to Him in faith. That justification includes a whole new way of life, forgiven of past sins and given new hearts and spirits, and now united with the Holy Spirit, as man is meant to be. From that point, man is enjoined to walk in that justice, in that righteousness that the law and prophets only testify to but cannot accomplish, as we remain in Him.

Not one person here even remotely suggested that the new covenant is a reprieve from man’s obligation to be righteous. But, firstly, man CAN’T be righteous, only Christ is righteous. Christ’s righteousness is what pays for our sins. We, in essence, wear his righteousness as a cloak, we are not made righteous by His sacrifice. We still sin, but those sins are paid for by his sacrifice. He doesn’t have to sacrifice himself again to pay for our new sins.

When we received the gift of salvation by grace through faith, we were created unto good works in Christ. This is not to work to contribute to our salvation, but in gratitude to Him who gave His life for us. But we who have been saved also have the benefit of the Holy Spirit guiding us to becoming conformed to the image of Christ. Paul specifically states we shouldn’t sin more so grace can abound more, but when we DO sin, and we all DO sin, that sin is covered by Christ’s sacrifice and God’s grace. We don’t do good works to contribute to our salvation.

 

[A New Dawn]

You're still not understanding my point. The verse I posted was not out of the blue. It was to prove that the remission of sins are for those that are "past" That's what the verse states. I even posted the verses above and below to include all of the context to show that it was not directed towards the sins of the OT Jews. It's talking about sin period. And the remission of sin. When you stated that Christ died for all sin, not just the past -it seemed to imply that you believe all future sin is forgiven without repentance. If I read that wrong than sorry I was mistaken.

Certainly upon repentance, future sins are forgiven.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my original comment. I was speaking about our sins, in total, being nailed to the cross (being forgiven). Many believe that their sins are only forgiven up to the point of conversion or baptism and from there on out they have to work to maintain, or at least contribute to, a saved status. All our sins were future to Christ when He died on the cross for us, so you believe there is an arbitrary line or date that stops Christ from forgiving any of our sins after that date? Repentance is needed for US to come back into right relationship with Christ, not for Christ’s ability to forgive us.

 

[JulieB67]

Repentance is needed for US to come back into right relationship with Christ, not for Christ’s ability to forgive us.

Then you would disagree with Christ's very own teachings in Revelation to the churches on repentance.

nd from there on out they have to work to maintain, or at least contribute to, a saved status.

True repentance comes from the heart and works come naturally because we were created to walk in them. It's not a works based salvation. It's a natural change that comes from repentance.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[A New Dawn]

Then you would disagree with Christ's very own teachings in Revelation to the churches on repentance.

True repentance comes from the heart and works come naturally because we were created to walk in them. It's not a works based salvation. It's a natural change that comes from repentance.


I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

It would be helpful if you posted scripture to support your claims. And it would be helpful if you actually read my posts before accusing me of something.

 

[Hentenza]

It's in how we live our lives by virtue of our connection to the Vine, walking by the Spirit. That relationship, that state, is man's justice, his righteousness, and the only authentic source of true righteousness. And the alternative to your statement here is that man could sin freely and wantonly and still expect to make it into heaven as long as he believes and Scripture is quite definitively opposed to that concept.

So is not by the grace of God that we have been saved? I posit to you that if we could save ourselves by how we live then Jesus sacrifice was in vein. Paul himself defines himself as a wretched man? Do you know what that means?

 

[Hentenza]

Ron 2:7, 6:22, 8:12-14

I’m not doing the fight if the verses. Either respond to the one I posted or comment on the ones you posted. I can’t read your mind.