Christian "Apostasy" =unpardonable sin doctrine supposed to learn at young age

[A New Dawn]

How does justification take place then? Do we just wake up from bed one day justified?

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: one must hear the gospel preached and from there it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. HE is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[ozso]

Short answer: yes.

Longer answer: one must hear the gospel preached and from there it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. HE is the author and finisher of our faith.

Hearing involves participation. Believing involves participation. Preaching involves participation. If participation is to be ruled out, that means no form of human involvement whatsoever.

 

[A New Dawn]

Hearing involves participation. Believing involves participation. Preaching involves participation. If participation is to be ruled out, that means no form of human involvement whatsoever.

It is not something we choose. And once God turns our heart and changes our nature and will, it is not as much believing as agreeing.

Our faith is God’s work. I’m not sure why so many feel they need to be involved in that process. The Bible is clear - God is the author (you know what an author does) and finisher of our faith.

 

[ozso]

It is not something we choose. And once God turns our heart and changes our nature and will, it is not as much believing as agreeing.

Agreeing requires involvement.

Our faith is God’s work. I’m not sure why so many feel they need to be involved in that process. The Bible is clear - God is the author (you know what an author does) and finisher of our faith.

An author creates an original work to be read by others, which requires involvement.

 

[A New Dawn]

An author creates an original work to be read by others, which requires involvement.

Other people reading does not involve your involvement.

 

[ozso]

Other people reading does not involve your involvement.

You said he's the author of your faith. In that case the author created an original work to be read by you. You said you accept the gospel. That means involvement on your part. The only way for it not to involve your involvement is you're justified without hearing or accepting the gospel.

 

[A New Dawn]

You said he's the author of your faith. In that case the author created an original work to be read by you. You said you accept the gospel. That means involvement on your part. The only way for it not to involve your involvement is you're justified without hearing or accepting the gospel.

Anything that we need to do to be saved is a work and Paul was clear that it is all of God (lest any man should boast).

 

[fhansen]

the devil kept me away from reading the book of Matthew somehow and following what Jesus said. All of these debates like Calvinism vs Arminianism whether we have free will, works vs faith, faith alone, whether the Lord's Supper is real, all of it served to distract me, endless Bible prophecy stuff. Even today all people ever talk about is Bible prophecy and theology, most of the sermons should talk about this, how this is not a game and how at any moment you can do an unpardonable sin. When Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees they blasphemed the Holy Spirit, that was it for them, there was no need to pray for them anymore. I read stuff like conspiracy on the Vatican, then I got into Reformed stuff on prophecy and the book of Daniel and Revelation, but the point of the post was to point people in the right direction that Satan doesn't want people to hear, to get saved you need to read Matthew and follow what Jesus says which is the 10 commandments, then read the first 5-6 books of the Bible, and then the NT will make sense and you can "persevere." All of these debates only served to confuse my mind into fatalism, antinomianism, nihilism, I started trying to read about theology etc, it was all unnecessary. there are still today people who spend all of their time on different things like the nephilim and the antichrist or whatever, and that's all I see people doing, there are people who might be young and read it and stop wasting their time on other stuff, if you follow Jesus and believe what he's saying like he says then you'll receive the Holy Spirit, but if your too far gone, the Holy Spirit is not going to dwell in a white-washed tomb, and then it's too late for you, and that's the goal of the devil. I had devils growling in my room when I was home alone as a kid, not once did I understand why, whether I was playing warcraft 3 or wasting time. literally. I thought there was maybe a raccoon in the walls. it was because they see you as an easy target, you're not doing what you should be doing , which is what I said above.

There's is some truth here-but...it's never too late with God-until we say it's too late becasue we don't want to join with Him.

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Pet 3:9

 

[ozso]

Anything that we need to do to be saved is a work and Paul was clear that it is all of God (lest any man should boast).

You're the one who brought up hearing, accepting and preaching being involved in justification. But in Ephesians 2:9 I think Paul is talking about doing good deeds, which is something someone can boast about. What a Christian should say is it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it. But I don't think that's where the grace of God stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.

 

[fhansen]

Do you still sin, brother?

Yes, as I've already stated. And I've also overcome sin or temptations to sin that I never would've thought possible-unless for my faith. I don't like saying "no" to me.

But the early church addressed this centuries ago. The earliest Christians had, generally speaking, given up much in order to be Christians: their positions and status, their wealth, relationships, often their lives. They had turned away from the world and its "values", its sin, as they turned to God. It was believed, with several Scriptural passages supporting this, that a person who returned to egregious sin: adultery, murder, theft, etc after conversion to Christ could not repent, could not return to the church fold and to fellowship with God again. Sin was taken very seriously, and this was so across the board with all the early churches. But in the 2nd century a certain bishop, amidst much heated controversy and opposition, and based on a fuller understanding of the mercy and love of God, reversed or altered this trend, teaching that any sin could be repented of even if very harsh penance and much time would be involved before the person would be accepted back as a fellow Christian again. This would eventually become the norm for all the churches.

And the church understood that, while perfection is the goal and the path we should be on (we weren’t created to sin to begin with, incidentally), this perfection will not be fully or completely realized in this life. So, again, the faith is not some sort of carte blanche freedom from the penalties of sin, but the very means to overcome that sin, the means now given to us by God. It’s freedom from sin, not from sin’s penalties. Past sin is not counted against us; it’s forgiven; now we have a fresh start, united with the only One who can overcome sin within us due to and by virtue of that vital-and just-union. And God is the God of fresh starts, BTW, always patiently drawing us to a change of heart and repentance all over again if we slide back away from Him and into sin.

So anyway, there are sins, examples of which are outlined in various passages, that, simply, lead to death if persisted in as they’re so overtly opposed to love of God and neighbor that they destroy love in us, while destroying our relationship with Him. Love is the real get-out-of-hell-free-card as it defines justice or righteousness for man and completes his very purpose as it’s brought to perfection while opposing and excluding sin by its nature. That's where God and the faith we're given is leading us to.

There are also milder sins that, while still opposed to the will of God, do not inherently constitute an overt turning away from Him. Anyway, this the only way to face the matter of sin head-on IMO and not turn to either antinomianism or some other compromise that doesn’t satisfactorily resolve the issue of whether or not sin can still lead to death as per Rom 6:21, for example.

 

[A New Dawn]

You're the one who brought up hearing, accepting and preaching being involved in justification. But in Ephesians 2:9 I think Paul is talking about doing good deeds, which is something someone can boast about. What a Christian should say is it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it. But I don't think that's where the grace of God stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.

Receiving something by grace is not something you were able to avoid, it’s God’s work. But then saying “I have to accept it” (because many people feel that they have to accept or reject it) makes you party to your own salvation, making it a work. The works Jesus and Paul and all the NT authors are talking about doing are works that bring glory to God, not works that bring glory to yourself.

When I was saved, God came down to me in the moment I was furthest from Him and trying to get as far away from Him and everything that represented Him as I could, when he miraculously reached down and changed my heart and made me His. There was nothing I could do to accept or reject Him. It was done. All by Him.

 

[Clare73]

Yes. And yet, do you think that persistence in wanton, grave sin wouldn't keep a believer out of heaven?

The born again do not persist in wanton, grave sin. . .only the unregenerate do so. . .therefore, such are not really born again.

 

[ozso]

Receiving something by grace is not something you were able to avoid, it’s God’s work. But then saying “I have to accept it” (because many people feel that they have to accept or reject it) makes you party to your own salvation, making it a work. The works Jesus and Paul and all the NT authors are talking about doing are works that bring glory to God, not works that bring glory to yourself.

Well again "accept" is what you said. I let you set the provisions and what you came up with was preaching, hearing and accepting.

When I was saved, God came down to me in the moment I was furthest from Him and trying to get as far away from Him and everything that represented Him as I could, when he miraculously reached down and changed my heart and made me His. There was nothing I could do to accept or reject Him. It was done. All by Him.

Didn't I say in my last post it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it?

But I don't think that's where grace stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.

 

[A New Dawn]

Well again "accept" is what you said. I let you set the provisions and what you came up with was preaching, hearing and accepting.

Didn't I say in my last post it's only by the grace of God that the gospel was preached, and that I heard it, and that I accepted it?

But I don't think that's where grace stops. It's by the grace of God that I'm aware of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to repent of my sin. It's by the grace of God that I want to follow Jesus. It's all part and parcel of God's grace given to us.

I don’t believe I mentioned “accepting” except in the context that others said they had to accept it.

I agree that all we have and do is by God’s grace and mercy. That is our response to the Holy Spirit working in us.

 

[fhansen]

The born again do not persist in wanton, grave sin. . .only the unregenerate do so. . .therefore, such are not really born again.

Well, anyone can certainly "die again", if they turn back away from God, as He's the source of true and abundant life. The "elect", however, by definition will ultimately persevere. In any case, merely thinking we're His or identifying as a regenerate or elected person has little meaning in itself. While a life lived well, by Christian virtue, points to sonship of God, the end, when He gives His just judgment, will tell the tale. Either way, no one can predict their own perserverance in holiness or anything else, which is why were exhorted and instructed to persevere and to strive to be holy, incidentally-and to "make our calling and election sure". Similiarly. regardless of how we classify ourselves, believers all fall into the same category, of beings who cannot absolutely predict immunity from failing:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Heb 6:4-6

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." 2 Pet 2:20-21

 

[ozso]

I don’t believe I mentioned “accepting” except in the context that others said they had to accept it.

My bad. You said "And once God turns our heart and changes our nature and will, it is not as much believing as agreeing". But agreeing and accepting aren't particularly far apart.

I agree that all we have and do is by God’s grace and mercy. That is our response to the Holy Spirit working in us.

Right, so sanctification is continuance of the grace that brings justification. We are justified and sanctified through grace.

 

[A New Dawn]

Right, so sanctification is continuance of the grace that brings justification. We are justified and sanctified through grace.

Grace pours from one to the other, and even from sanctification to glorification, but they are still three different aspects of salvation. They have different purposes regarding our sinful state.

Justification saves us from the penalty of sin.
Sanctification saves us from the power of sin.
Glorification saves us from the presence of sin.

 

[Clare73]

Well, anyone can certainly "die again", if they turn back away from God,

Au contraire. . .

Eternal life of the new birth is just that. . .eternal.

Turning away from God is proof they never had eternal life int he first place, though they thought they did (Mt 7:22-23).

as He's the source of true and abundant life. The "elect", however, by definition will ultimately persevere. In any case, merely thinking we're His or identifying as a regenerate or elected person has little meaning in itself. While a life lived well, by Christian virtue, points to sonship of God, the end, when He gives His just judgment, will tell the tale. Either way, no one can predict their own perserverance in holiness or anything else, which is why were exhorted and instructed to persevere and to strive to be holy, incidentally-and to "make our calling and election sure". Similiarly. regardless of how we classify ourselves, believers all fall into the same category, of beings who cannot absolutely predict immunity from failing:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." Heb 6:4-6

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them." 2 Pet 2:20-21

"Enlightening" and "tasting" are not the conviction and eating of the new birth.

 

[fhansen]

Turning away from God is proof they never had eternal life int he first place, though they thought they did (Mt 7:22-23).

And that only means that anyone can think they did-but didn't.

 

[A New Dawn]

And that only means that anyone can think they did-but didn't.

True, that is why the Perseverance of the Saints is an important point in the Doctrines of Grace.