Does man have a freewill ?

[zoidar]

I'll let you exposit that.

If we say God knows what will happen because He decreed it, then His knowledge is not intrinsic to His being but flows from an action, His decree. That implies a logical sequence: God wills, then knows. But that introduces change in God, something is added to Him: the knowledge of what He has willed. If God's knowledge springs from His will, then He is not omniscient in His being. This is not a small matter, It's whether we believe in the eternal, perfect, all-knowing God, or something less.

 

[Hentenza]

If we say God knows what will happen because He decreed it, then His knowledge is not intrinsic to His being but flows from an action, His decree. That implies a logical sequence: God wills, then knows. But that introduces change in God, something is added to Him: the knowledge of what He has willed. If God's knowledge depends on His will, then He is not omniscient in His being. This is not a small matter, It's whether we believe in the eternal, perfect, all-knowing God, or something less.

He decreed it because He always knew. No change of God’s attributes here.

 

[zoidar]

He decreed it because He always knew. No change of God’s attributes here.

Yes, that is the logical sequence: God knows, then decrees, yet Clare here says God knows because He decreed it.

 

[Brightfame52]

If we say God knows what will happen because He decreed it, then His knowledge is not intrinsic to His being but flows from an action, His decree. That implies a logical sequence: God wills, then knows. But that introduces change in God, something is added to Him: the knowledge of what He has willed. If God's knowledge springs from His will, then He is not omniscient in His being. This is not a small matter, It's whether we believe in the eternal, perfect, all-knowing God, or something less.

False ungodly reasoning. If God foreknows something because He decreed /purposed it, makes Him the first and primary cause of what ever happens, all other causes are subordinate to His Primary Cause of purpose.

What's God dishonoring is when men say God foreknows when He looked into the future and saw the acts of men and then He responds. Like some say God foreknowledge in Election 1Pet 1:2 means God saw what man would accept Christ and elected him or her based on that knowledge He foresaw

 

[zoidar]

False ungodly reasoning. If God foreknows something because He decreed /purposed it, makes Him the first and primary cause of what ever happens, all other causes are subordinate to His Primary Cause of purpose.

Could be true. Still it makes God less than omniscient, since knowledge is added to God. You are sidestepping the real issue. If He only knows because He decreed, then His knowledge isn’t eternal or intrinsic, it’s reactive. And that undermines the whole idea of God being all-knowing in Himself.

What's God dishonoring is when men say God foreknows when He looked into the future and saw the acts of men and then He responds. Like some say God foreknowledge in Election 1Pet 1:2 means God saw what man would accept Christ and elected him or her based on that knowledge He foresaw

 

[Jerry N.]

False ungodly reasoning. If God foreknows something because He decreed /purposed it, makes Him the first and primary cause of what ever happens, all other causes are subordinate to His Primary Cause of purpose.

What's God dishonoring is when men say God foreknows when He looked into the future and saw the acts of men and then He responds. Like some say God foreknowledge in Election 1Pet 1:2 means God saw what man would accept Christ and elected him or her based on that knowledge He foresaw

This is a good argument, but I see one problem that our little minds can’t quite get. God doesn’t have “foreknowledge,” because He is not limited by time. He told Moses and Samuel what the Israelites were going to do, but that doesn’t mean He was predicting the future. It looked that way, because He was talking to prophets. Unless one can understand what living outside of time means, one can never get a firm idea about the free will vs. predestination problem. I suspect that both can be true, but we just can’t comprehend how.

 

[Hentenza]

God doesn’t have “foreknowledge,” because He is not limited by time.

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

bible.com

He does have foreknowledge. He has all knowledge.

 

[Jerry N.]

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters

bible.com

He does have foreknowledge. He has all knowledge.

You are correct, but what word would you use instead of "foreknowledge?" It is a human concept in a human language.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This Scripture clearly shows of our free will and the consequences of our choices

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

That's why most of the Promises Jesus makes are conditional

For example:

John 14: 15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [e]Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[Hentenza]

You are correct, but what word would you use instead of "foreknowledge?" It is a human concept in a human language.

We can only use human language to describe God therefore we always fall short. The word translated as foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 works in the sense that it doesn’t limit God.

Strong’s Definitions
προγινώσκω proginṓskō, prog-in-oce'-ko; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:—foreknow (ordain), know (before).

 

[Jerry N.]

We can only use human language to describe God therefore we always fall short. The word translated as foreknowledge in Romans 8:29 works in the sense that it doesn’t limit God.

Strong’s Definitions
προγινώσκω proginṓskō, prog-in-oce'-ko; from G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:—foreknow (ordain), know (before).

I just wanted to make clear that foreknowledge does not imply predestination. We might see the clouds and have foreknowledge of rain, but God is here now, there in the past, and there in the future. He makes some things happen and He lets some things happen. He knows the outcome, but that doesn’t mean He controlled all that happened. So freewill can exists along with predestination, but how that exactly takes place has been a question I don’t think we can answer. To deny one and only except the other seems to go against Scripture. It is fun to speculate, but surety is probably not a good idea. This is not directed at you personally, because I don’t know where you stand.

 

[Hentenza]

I just wanted to make clear that foreknowledge does not imply predestination.

In Romans 8:29 those that He foreknew He also predestined. The Bible does teach predestination but it also teaches that God wills the world to be saved. I’ll let you exegesis as you see fit.

We might see the clouds and have foreknowledge of rain, but God is here now, there in the past, and there in the future. He makes some things happen and He lets some things happen. He knows the outcome, but that doesn’t mean He controlled all that happened. So freewill can exists along with predestination, but how that exactly takes place has been a question I don’t think we can answer. To deny one and only except the other seems to go against Scripture. It is fun to speculate, but surety is probably not a good idea. This is not directed at you personally, because I don’t know where you stand.

There is an infinite difference between an infinity being and a finite being. The best we can do is study what God has revealed and listen to the Holy Spirit. Where I stand is immaterial. I refuse to put myself in some theological box.

 

[Jerry N.]

In Romans 8:29 those that He foreknew He also predestined. The Bible does teach predestination but it also teaches that God wills the world to be saved. I’ll let you exegesis as you see fit.

There is an infinite difference between an infinity being and a finite being. The best we can do is study what God has revealed and listen to the Holy Spirit. Where I stand is immaterial. I refuse to put myself in some theological box.

I don’t think that everybody God foreknew were also predestined to eternal life. He knew the choices they would make, but they still had free will. Maybe I misunderstand Romans 8:29. I guess you could say it is a paradox to me. We probably both stand outside the theological box. God is very big on His own free will. I think that our free will is part of being in the image of God. On the other hand, He chooses people for a particular path (or salvation), but I’m inclined to think we can reject that path. He predestined David to be King of Israel, but David made choices against God’s will. I’m only arguing that both free will and predestination can both be true, and we can’t understand it.

 

[Brightfame52]

Could be true. Still it makes God less than omniscient, since knowledge is added to God. You are sidestepping the real issue. If He only knows because He decreed, then His knowledge isn’t eternal or intrinsic, it’s reactive. And that undermines the whole idea of God being all-knowing in Himself.

You got it backwards

 

[Brightfame52]

@Jerry N.

God doesn’t have “foreknowledge,

May as well stop right there 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Jerry N.]

@Jerry N.



May as well stop right there 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

You miss the point. Foreknowledge is a human attribute and the word is in a human language to expresses a human thought. We don’t have a word for how God knows the present, past, and future. God’s is at a different level. If we attribute foreknowledge to Him, it falls short of what is actually happening. When we say God has foreknowledge, we are just trying to explain in human terms what God does beyond our understanding.

 

[Brightfame52]

You miss the point. Foreknowledge is a human attribute and the word is in a human language to expresses a human thought. We don’t have a word for how God knows the present, past, and future. God’s is at a different level. If we attribute foreknowledge to Him, it falls short of what is actually happening. When we say God has foreknowledge, we are just trying to explain in human terms what God does beyond our understanding.

I guess you just ignored the verse I showed you about the Foreknowledge of God the Father. Oh well

 

[Jerry N.]

I guess you just ignored the verse I showed you about the Foreknowledge of God the Father. Oh well

I didn’t ignore the verse, and the verse is true within our human understanding. If you build a theory on a word that falls short of one of the attributes of God, it becomes less than solid. You lower God to a human level, because you give him a human attribute that is less than the actual attribute of God. The argument proceeds as though God is like man and God’s foreknowledge is like human foreknowledge. Peter was doing the best he could to describe God’s workings, but it should not be taken as proof of predestination because it would require starting with humanizing God and His mind. God’s mind is beyond description by human language. We don’t actually know what it means for God to have foreknowledge. We know He knows who will be saved and who will be damned, but we don’t know the relationship to predestination and free will.

 

[Brightfame52]

I didn’t ignore the verse, and the verse is true within our human understanding. If you build a theory on a word that falls short of one of the attributes of God, it becomes less than solid. You lower God to a human level, because you give him a human attribute that is less than the actual attribute of God. The argument proceeds as though God is like man and God’s foreknowledge is like human foreknowledge. Peter was doing the best he could to describe God’s workings, but it should not be taken as proof of predestination because it would require starting with humanizing God and His mind. God’s mind is beyond description by human language. We don’t actually know what it means for God to have foreknowledge. We know He knows who will be saved and who will be damned, but we don’t know the relationship to predestination and free will.

Just understand, God has foreknowledge, maybe you need to study it to understand what it means biblically, dont confuse it with Gods omniscience, not the same

 

[Clare73]

Yes, that is the logical sequence: God knows, then decrees, yet Clare here says God knows because He decreed it.

God decreed the incarnation of his Son.

God knows of the birth of Jesus of Nazareth before (foreknowledge) it occurs because he has decreed it.

And poor Peter, I guess he got it wrong in 1 Pe 1:2.