Revelation Disproves Rapture

[Dale]

I find belief in a “rapture,” separate from the Second Coming, baffling. No verse in the Bible says anything about God removing His people from a world where political events are still taking place. Where would we expect to find evidence of a “rapture”? The Book of Revelation is the most Apocalyptic book in the Bible, so we would expect to find it there. While Revelation makes no mention of anyone being “raptured,” it does say that there are martyrs in heaven.

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls
of those who had been slain because of the word of God and
the testimony they had maintained.

They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord,
holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and
avenge our blood?”
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were
told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow-
servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been
was completed.
Revelation 6: 9-11 NIV

Revelation tells us that martyrs in heaven are “under the altar,” under God’s protection. Further, more martyrs continue to arrive in heaven and the newcomers have the same status as all the martyrs of the past.

In Revelation 19:11-14 we find the Second Coming, the return of Jesus Christ, accompanied by a heavenly army.

Re. 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white
horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he
judges and makes war.
Re. 19:12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many
crowns. He has a name written on him that no-one knows but
he himself.
Re. 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the
Word of God.
Re. 19:14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white
horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Who are these “armies of heaven”? Believers in a “rapture” assume that they are the raptured, those “taken” off the earth by God to protect them from the Tribulation. What does the scripture say?

The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation chapter 7. The enumeration of the 144,000 is given in verse 3 to verse 8. God’s grace is not limited to the 144,000. In verse 9 we are told that a “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation” are standing before the Throne of God.

Who are the 144,000, and the great multitude?

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes —
who are they, and where did they come from?”
I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they
who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed
their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Revelation 7: 13-14 NIV

Both the 144,000 and the rest of the “great multitude” came “out of the great tribulation.” This certainly tells us that they did not avoid persecution, or tribulation. They went through it. They came to heaven as martyrs, or perhaps they endured persecution and died of natural causes, but they went through tribulation. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14.

Re. 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing
on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and
his Father’s name written on their foreheads.
Re. 14:2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing
waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was
like that of harpists playing their harps.
Re. 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the
four living creatures and the elders. No-one could learn the
song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the
earth.
Re. 14:4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women,
for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb
wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men
and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.
Revelation 14:1-4

Here we are told that the Lamb, Christ, is on Mt. Zion with with the 144,000. When the 144,000 are introduced in chapter 7, they are in heaven. Then in Chapter 14, Jesus is on Mt. Zion after the Second Coming and the 144,000 are with Him. It looks like they are the army that accompanies Jesus when He returns as Judge. Revelation 14 is preview of what happens after the return of Christ in Revelation 19.

Those who are in the “army” that returns with Jesus are not the “raptured” but martyrs and others who came out of the Tribulation.



What happens on Mt. Zion? For insights from the Old Testament, see Post 2.

 

[Dale]

The last verse of Isaiah 24 tells us that God will reign in Jerusalem. This must be after the Second Coming.

The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed; for the LORD
Almighty will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, and
before its elders, gloriously.
Isaiah 24:23 NIV

Isaiah 25 continues the same theme.

Is. 25:6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare a feast of
rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine — the best
of meats and the finest of wines.
Is. 25:7 On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all
peoples, the sheet that covers all nations;
Is. 25:8 he will swallow up death for ever. The Sovereign LORD will
wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove the
disgrace of his people from all the earth. The LORD has
spoken.
Isaiah 25:6-8 NIV

How would this come about? Christians are killed during the Tribulation, and they arrive in heaven as martyrs. When Jesus returns, He brings them back to earth, where they are seen by everyone. That would “swallow up death.” Everyone would know that to God, death is reversible.

 

[DragonFox91]

I agree. I don't buy the idea the church is protected from the tribulation b/c the saints have always experienced tribulation. The point of Revelation is that the saints will endure thru it anyways. Even as he is judging the world, he is working it out for the good of the saints - & he promises his 2nd Coming at the end

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I find belief in a “rapture,” separate from the Second Coming, baffling. No verse in the Bible says anything about God removing His people

Rev 3 8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Isaiah 26 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

2 Tes 2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

The people in Thessalonica were worried they are already in the day of the Lord, because of the intense persecution. Paul reminds them the day of the Lord has not yet come because the one who restrains the antichrist is still here on earth. Only Holy Spirit can restrain him. The Holy Spirit came for the Church, and will leave the Church, then the antichrist gets revealed. The Church won't be here.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:9–11)

The most sobering truth in Scripture is that God will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal hell. On the other hand, the blessed truth for believers is that God has not destined us for wrath. Thus Christians cannot be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. The 7 year Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble...Israel will go through the tribulation, not the Church. Israel will be redeemed during the tribulation, not all, but elect of God will be. And because the Church is different than Israel, then the Church can leave before the tribulation and Israel will still be around to be redeemed.

The Church won't be here when the bowls of wrath are poured. From Revelation 12 we know that the devil will be cast down to Earth. That's why God says 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” Woe is not for Christians, woe is not for the bride of Christ.

Matthew 16:18 “And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” In other words, Satan will never stifle the Church. That’s very important.
Revelation 13:7, here we are in the tribulation. “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the Church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the Church in view in the tribulation.

In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”

Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.

John 14, Jesus made the promise of the rapture. In verse 33 of chapter 13, He said, “I’m going to go away, and you can’t come where I’m going to go,” and they were all broken up. They wanted to be with Him so much.

In verse 1, He says, “Stop letting your hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me.” here comes the promise: “In My Father’s house there are many mansions; if it weren’t so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you; and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there ye may be also.” Now Jesus says, “Don’t be troubled, because I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.”

That is absolutely foreign to the Jewish mind. The Jew had no concept of such an event. All the Jew expected was Messiah comes to earth, sets up an earthly kingdom; he had no concept of leaving and going to the Father’s house. In fact, it was so new that they stood there dumbfounded. Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t even know what You’re talking about.” – verse 5 – “Where are You going? How do you get there?” What’s this? Since when are You going? We thought the Messiah came, stayed, set up the kingdom. This is new.”

Now mark this: throughout the Old Testament, God never, ever promised this to Israel. At no time does God say to Israel, “I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.” Always, Messiah will come and reign on the earth in the promised kingdom. So here you have something completely different than the national hope of Israel. It must be a distinct event.

You say, “Well, maybe the rapture and the return happened together.” It can’t. They can’t. I don’t believe in the up and down quickie. You say, “Why?” Well, because of this.

Think about this one. How many are going to be changed in the rapture? “We shall all be changed.” Okay. How many of the ungodly are going to be destroyed in the second coming? All. So if you’ve got all believers changed, and you’ve got the rapture and the return at the same moment, the kingdom next, you’ve got all believers changed and all unbelievers destroyed, who is going to be around in the kingdom to do the gardening that Amos talks about? Amos 9, he says, “There’s going to be tilling of the ground, raising crops, plowing, planting vineyards, gardens, eating of the fruit. Men are going to sit into their vineyards and share their grapes with their neighbors.”

Who’s going to be sitting around? Everybody’s glorified or dead. You’ve got to have a period of time between – when it says “all be changed” it can’t mean all the saints of all the ages, or there won’t be any redeemed saints during the tribulation to go into the kingdom.

Plus, how do you get a worldwide rebellion in the kingdom if you’ve got no ungodly going in and only translated saints going in? How do you get Satan loose from leading a worldwide rebellion? You’ve got nobody to lead. You must have – now watch – you must have living physical beings in the kingdom. You’ve got to have a little child to lead that menagerie of animals around. Now where are you going to get unless there’s some saints redeemed during a period between the rapture and the return? Therefore we believe the rapture must come before the return and at the beginning of the tribulation.

Well, 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 13, this describes the rapture: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them who are asleep.” Now they were worried because some Christians had died and they thought they might be second-class citizens and miss out on the rapture. And so they go down and they say in verse 16, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Not only are they not going to miss, they’re going to go first. This is the rapture. The dead bodies rise to meet the souls that have been with the Lord. If a person dies now, his spirit immediately is in the presence of Christ. Later on his body will be a glorified body resurrected to meet his spirit already with Christ. So the dead bodies rise to meet the spirits. “Then we who are left alive and remain are caught together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” All right, there’s the rapture. Everybody goes. See? Don’t worry about the dead ones, they go too. “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

Now immediately the question is going to come up, “Well, when does this happen?” Look at verse 1 of chapter 5. “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” “Of the times and the seasons, you have no need that I write unto you.” Jesus said that I better make sure I’m not up on the roof without my bags packed, and I’d better make sure that I’ve got all my clothes together, and I better make sure it isn’t winter and I’ve got food, and I better make sure my wife doesn’t have a baby and that I don’t have little children, because it’s going to be hot and heavy and fast, and I’ll barely escape with my life if I do.

Paul would never have said, “Comfort one another with these words, and you don’t need to know when it’s going to come.” That would be the height of ridiculous statements. “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s nothing. You don’t have any need to know. All it is is tribulation that’s going to realize the ultimate disaster of the world.” That would be a foolish statement, “Of the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” Well, that would contradict what Jesus said if we’re going through the tribulation.

“For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. For when they shall say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.” But watch this. Who shall not escape? What is the pronoun? “They shall not escape.”

Verse 4: “But,” – what’s the pronoun? – “ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief.” Do you see a difference? “Somebody’s going to get it when the day of the Lord comes, but you, brethren, aren’t going to be there. It’s not going to overtake you.” Why? “You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.”

Look at verse 8-9. He says just live the Christian life. “Put on the breastplate of faith and love, and helmet, the hope of salvation.” And then what do you do? – verse 9 – “for God hath not appointed us to” – what? – “wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The word “salvation” in the Greek means deliverance. He hasn’t appointed us to wrath, but to deliverance, “who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live” – what? – “together with Him.”

We’re not appointed to judgment, we’re appointed to be with Him, That’s where we’re going to be. And while the judgment hits the world, whether a believer has died or whether he’s alive, we’re going to be with Jesus. I’ll tell you, friends, I am not looking for Antichrist, I’m looking for Christ. And then in 11, he says, “Wherefore comfort yourselves together.” Now there’s no comfort in going through the tribulation, believe me. Only possible for comfort if we’re going to escape.

 

[RandyPNW]

I find belief in a “rapture,” separate from the Second Coming, baffling.

Baffling yes. The Church, for most of its history, rarely saw a 2-stage eschatological Coming of Christ. We never saw a separation of this magnitude become mainstream theology until Dispensationalism and Darby.

But let's try to make sense of it? Futurism, ie the belief that more prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in history, sort of went dry during the time of the Reformers. They thought they were seeing the book of Revelation unfold in the Papacy, as it emerged out of the Middle Ages, now completely corrupted by Humanism.

These Protestants, who placed no stock in a future Millennial Age and in a future Isreal, just like the Catholics and the Orthodox, found no big deal in future prophecy because they thought they were living it. They just didn't like the Catholics, who they considered an "Antichrist."

But it eventually became apparent that the Pope was not the Antichrist, and that future prophecy still had to be fulfilled. And that gave rise to the possibility Israel could still be salvaged and reintroduced as a potential new nation in Christ. The Jews weren't going away, and some of them were always getting saved, if only in small numbers.

In the meantime, the emphasis on Christ's Return, to save a corrupted Church, looked at judgment to come as not being for the faithful, but only for the compromised and wicked. And so, some saw that Wrath would be spared the righteous at Christ's Coming by a few years or less, in order to be exempt from the outpouring of judgment that was coming upon the wicked.

Eventually, this idea of early escape before final wrath took root in Darby's Futurism. The problem is, the Scriptures don't read that way. And they don't see Christians dying in a time of wrath as that wraath being directed at them.

Death in a fiery ordeal, directed at the wicked, will take victims along with the innocent. But this is a form of martyrdom, much as Jeremiah suffered in a atime when God was pouring out wrath upon Jerusalem. That wrath was not directed at him, but he did suffer as a result.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Ok then explain how Jesus return is not known “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. The rapture is an event that happens in one day and hour, but the tribulation is a 7 year long event.

But Jesus states watch for the signs of His return.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[keras]

Ok then explain how Jesus return is not known “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

That Prophecy refers only to the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. The sudden worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal.
The glorious Return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, will be known beforehand, as it will happen exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated. Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2:4

 

[d taylor]

That Prophecy refers only to the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath. The sudden worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal.
The glorious Return of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, will be known beforehand, as it will happen exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated. Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess 2:4

-
​

No the next verse specifically states But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
So theses verses are addressing the coming of the Son of Man

It ends stating

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

 

[Matt5]

"Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

It's really talking about the events that will shortly precede the arrival of Jesus. These events will wipe out most of the planet. They will be a surprise. The actual arrival of Jesus will be no surprise.

Why the confusion? Because most people won't believe the truth. So, let them believe what they want to believe.

 

[DaveM]

this is a copy and paste to good not to share

he Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)

5. Daniel backs it up:

“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2

“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10

Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.

6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.

“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13

The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.

There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.

Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:

The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.

The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.

The elect are gathered after the tribulation.

There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.

And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).

Summary:

"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.

The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).

The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.

The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.

The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.

So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.

Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.

Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.

No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).

Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)

The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.

If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)

The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.

Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.

Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.

Jesus didn’t teach it.

So where did it come from?

John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”

The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.

So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…

Then who did?

Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.

It’s so twisted, so dark, so psychotic,
it could only come from the pit itself.

Like an evil man sweetly coaxing a group of children
to dance into a barn full of starving lions —
and calling it “blessed hope".

What they’ve done to the Church since 1909 is so twisted,
so diabolical,
it couldn’t have come from man.

This deception bears the fingerprints of the Dragon himself.
Only the enemy of Christ could orchestrate something so brilliant,
so blasphemous —
and sell it as hope.

 

[RandyPNW]

this is a copy and paste to good not to share

he Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

I may not agree with every detail, but basically you're right. The fictional "Great Escape" is not in the least biblical.

You may twist Scriptures and read into parables your 2-stage Rapture. But it is not *exlicitly taught* as an eschatology in the Scriptures.

It is a personal revelation that does not come from the right source. It is a mystery that allows its adherants to fill in the blanks. But is it inspired? Certaintly not!

 

[Garrett.theo]

@Dale

You are correct that the rapture doesn't take place prior to The Great Tribulation! I actually demonstrated that very fact in a recent post of mine. I don't want to copy & paste it here, but if you want to look at it, it's post "#1" in my thread entitled: More Proof of a Post-Tribulation Rapture.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Just another set of verses speaking about the rapture.

“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[DragonFox91]

I get the impression a lot of “sunshine & rainbows” Christians believe it. It’s repackaged amillennialism

But good post Ivan. I can see it has a lot of good arguments. I’m just not sold

Verses that describe being saved or escaping from the tribulation are about persevering thru it

 

[KevinT]

I find belief in a “rapture,” separate from the Second Coming, baffling.

But .. but ... but ... it HAS to be true. They've made movies about it an everything. They even got Nicholas Cage to star in one of them. Thus is HAS to be true. I've seen it with my own eyes.



KT

 

[Matt5]

this is a copy and paste to good not to share

he Tribulation Isn’t What You Think — and Jesus Never Taught a Rapture Escape Plan

Scripture mostly talks about “tribulation” (thlipsis) as something believers experience. But Jesus does describe a final period of unparalleled distress — and He tells us exactly how it ends.

The problem? Modern churches have been fed Scofield’s fan fiction, not Christ’s words.

So let’s walk through what the Bible actually says.

1. Tribulation is for believers — not just “the left behind.”

“In the world you will have tribulation (θλῖψιν) — but take heart, I have overcome the world.”
— John 16:33

“We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
— Acts 14:22

Tribulation isn't some Jewish horror flick after the Church "vanishes" — it's the furnace believers have always gone through. It’s been happening since Acts — and it will culminate right before Christ returns.

2. Jesus does mention a great tribulation — but the righteous are still there.

“Then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world... and except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved.” — Matthew 24:21–22

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He shall send His angels… and gather His elect.” — Matthew 24:29–31

So when does Jesus gather His people? AFTER the tribulation — not before.
No secret escape. No early flight. No Kirk Cameron 'Left Behind' Hollywood nonsense.
Left behind” isn’t a threat — it’s a promise. Just ask Noah.

3. “But what about being taken like in Noah’s day?”

People say this like it’s the reward — but Jesus says it’s the judgment.

“As it was in the days of Noah… they were eating and drinking… until the flood came and took them all away.
So shall it be when the Son of Man returns.” — Matthew 24:37–39
(Also Luke 17:26–30)

Look again — who gets taken in Noah’s day?
Not Noah. Not the righteous.
It’s the wicked who are swept away in judgment.

And Jesus says it’ll be just like that again.

The ones “taken” are the ones judged.
The ones “left” are the ones preserved.
Left behind? That’s the blessing. Just like Noah, just like Lot.

That means modern Rapture theology has Christians begging to be swept away in judgment — while calling it their “blessed hope.” That’s not faith. That’s deception — straight from the Pit. They’re under a veil… and cheering for their own destruction as the architects of this deception laugh from the shadows of Hell — watching the Church pray for its own judgment, and call it salvation.

4. Revelation confirms: the saints go through it.

“I saw the souls of those who were beheaded for their witness to Jesus… and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:4

Who are these saints?
Not “tribulation extras.”
They’re the faithful Church — those who endure.
There is ONE resurrection. (John 5:28–29, Daniel 12:2)

5. Daniel backs it up:

“There shall be a time of trouble such as never was… but at that time your people shall be delivered — everyone written in the Book.”
— Daniel 12:1–2

“Many shall be purified and made white and tried.”
— Daniel 12:10

Not beamed up — purified, tried, delivered.
Through fire, not around it.

6. There’s no escape hatch. But there is endurance — and glory.

“Here is the endurance of the saints… those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.”
— Revelation 14:12

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.” — Matthew 24:13

The Satanic Lie: “The Tribulation” is a Jewish-only horror story.
This was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s and stapled into your Bible by Scofield.
They taught the Church is removed before things get rough, and the Jews get one more shot during a special 7-year tribulation.

There’s only one problem:
That’s not what Jesus taught.

Final Truth:
There is a final period of tribulation — a real, global time of distress before Christ returns. But Jesus was clear:

The righteous aren’t removed beforehand — they’re refined.

The wicked are “taken,” not the saints.

The elect are gathered after the tribulation.

There is one resurrection — at Christ’s visible return.

And every believer who endures will shine like the sun in the Kingdom of their Father (Matthew 13:43).

Summary:

"The tribulation" is real — not just future, but already unfolding. It intensifies before Christ returns. But believers go through it — not around it.

The “rapture” happens after the tribulation (Matt 24:29–31).

The ones “taken” in Noah’s day were the wicked — not the saved.
Jesus says it will be the same way again when He returns.

The ones ‘taken’ are the damned. The Rapture, as the misled modern churches teach it, is actually a death sentence disguised as deliverance.

The righteous are left — sealed, rescued, preserved, just like Noah.

So when modern Christians start begging to be “taken”…
they’re literally praying to be swept away in judgment.
That’s not the blessed hope.
That’s spiritual suicide — with Scofield footnotes.

Scofield’s fantasy isn’t in the Bible.

Endure like Noah. Obey like Lot. Shine like the saints.

No one is raptured before it. The righteous are gathered after (Matt 24:29–31).

Saints will suffer, resist the Beast, and be resurrected to reign with Christ. (Rev 20:4)

The whole “pre-trib rapture” thing? Invented in the 1800s. Not Bible. Not Jesus. Not apostolic.

If anyone tells you we’ll be “raptured out” before things get hard, just ask:
“Where’s the verse that says that?”
(Spoiler: there isn’t one.)

The Cross wasn’t an escape plan — it was a war path.
Jesus doesn’t rapture cowards.
He refines warriors.

Not one apostle taught a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not one early Church father believed Christians would disappear before the time of trial.
There is zero historical record of any secret escape doctrine in the first 1800 years of Christianity.

Paul didn’t teach it.
Peter didn’t teach it.
John — the one who saw Revelation — didn’t teach it.

Irenaeus didn’t preach it.
Polycarp didn’t preach it.
Ignatius didn’t preach it.

Jesus didn’t teach it.

So where did it come from?

John Nelson Darby, 1830s.
Scofield Bible, 1909.
Then Hollywood — and Satan’s global elite minions — ran with it.
They sold Christians a false escape hatch — and called it “the Blessed Hope.”

The real Church never believed in a “left behind” evacuation plan.
That idea didn’t come from the Bible.

So ask yourself:
If the apostles didn’t preach it…
If the early Church never taught it…
If Jesus never mentioned it…

Then who did?

Because deception this deep doesn’t come from ignorance — it comes from below.

It’s so twisted, so dark, so psychotic,
it could only come from the pit itself.

Like an evil man sweetly coaxing a group of children
to dance into a barn full of starving lions —
and calling it “blessed hope".

What they’ve done to the Church since 1909 is so twisted,
so diabolical,
it couldn’t have come from man.

This deception bears the fingerprints of the Dragon himself.
Only the enemy of Christ could orchestrate something so brilliant,
so blasphemous —
and sell it as hope.

That's a good post with good information. Too bad facts and logic don't actually work in an argument. What works? Nothing.

Who is qualified to be raptured today? Nobody knows. And that's the problem.

We see that half of Christians will get fooled by the fake Jesus (parable of foolish virgins) and take the mark of the beast. Do you want those Christians in the kingdom of heaven?

Who will get raptured at the end?

Christians who dodged multiple nuclear wars, the Antichrist, the fake Jesus and the mark will qualify. How many is that? Will it even be a million? All other Christians are either dead or took the mark.

 

[d taylor]

-
​

The rapture is not a separate event from Jesus' second coming, it is part of the second coming. The first part, Jesus leaves out of heaven (the heaven where God The Father is) and meets believers in the clouds where they will remain throughout the 7 year tribulation

 

[Douggg]

The resurrection/rapture is found in 1Thessalonians5:9-11. "11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."

An extension of 1Thessalonians4:14-18. "18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

 

[Dale]

Rev 3 8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Isaiah 26 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

2 Tes 2 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

The people in Thessalonica were worried they are already in the day of the Lord, because of the intense persecution. Paul reminds them the day of the Lord has not yet come because the one who restrains the antichrist is still here on earth. Only Holy Spirit can restrain him. The Holy Spirit came for the Church, and will leave the Church, then the antichrist gets revealed. The Church won't be here.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing. (1 Thessalonians 5:9–11)

The most sobering truth in Scripture is that God will judge the wicked and sentence them to eternal hell. On the other hand, the blessed truth for believers is that God has not destined us for wrath. Thus Christians cannot be on Earth during the Great Tribulation. The 7 year Tribulation is also known as Jacob's trouble...Israel will go through the tribulation, not the Church. Israel will be redeemed during the tribulation, not all, but elect of God will be. And because the Church is different than Israel, then the Church can leave before the tribulation and Israel will still be around to be redeemed.

The Church won't be here when the bowls of wrath are poured. From Revelation 12 we know that the devil will be cast down to Earth. That's why God says 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” Woe is not for Christians, woe is not for the bride of Christ.

Matthew 16:18 “And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” In other words, Satan will never stifle the Church. That’s very important.
Revelation 13:7, here we are in the tribulation. “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the Church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the Church in view in the tribulation.

In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”

Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.

John 14, Jesus made the promise of the rapture. In verse 33 of chapter 13, He said, “I’m going to go away, and you can’t come where I’m going to go,” and they were all broken up. They wanted to be with Him so much.

In verse 1, He says, “Stop letting your hearts be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me.” here comes the promise: “In My Father’s house there are many mansions; if it weren’t so I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you; and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto Myself that where I am there ye may be also.” Now Jesus says, “Don’t be troubled, because I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.”

That is absolutely foreign to the Jewish mind. The Jew had no concept of such an event. All the Jew expected was Messiah comes to earth, sets up an earthly kingdom; he had no concept of leaving and going to the Father’s house. In fact, it was so new that they stood there dumbfounded. Thomas said, “Lord, we don’t even know what You’re talking about.” – verse 5 – “Where are You going? How do you get there?” What’s this? Since when are You going? We thought the Messiah came, stayed, set up the kingdom. This is new.”

Now mark this: throughout the Old Testament, God never, ever promised this to Israel. At no time does God say to Israel, “I’m going to come and get you and take you to the Father’s house.” Always, Messiah will come and reign on the earth in the promised kingdom. So here you have something completely different than the national hope of Israel. It must be a distinct event.

You say, “Well, maybe the rapture and the return happened together.” It can’t. They can’t. I don’t believe in the up and down quickie. You say, “Why?” Well, because of this.

Think about this one. How many are going to be changed in the rapture? “We shall all be changed.” Okay. How many of the ungodly are going to be destroyed in the second coming? All. So if you’ve got all believers changed, and you’ve got the rapture and the return at the same moment, the kingdom next, you’ve got all believers changed and all unbelievers destroyed, who is going to be around in the kingdom to do the gardening that Amos talks about? Amos 9, he says, “There’s going to be tilling of the ground, raising crops, plowing, planting vineyards, gardens, eating of the fruit. Men are going to sit into their vineyards and share their grapes with their neighbors.”

Who’s going to be sitting around? Everybody’s glorified or dead. You’ve got to have a period of time between – when it says “all be changed” it can’t mean all the saints of all the ages, or there won’t be any redeemed saints during the tribulation to go into the kingdom.

Plus, how do you get a worldwide rebellion in the kingdom if you’ve got no ungodly going in and only translated saints going in? How do you get Satan loose from leading a worldwide rebellion? You’ve got nobody to lead. You must have – now watch – you must have living physical beings in the kingdom. You’ve got to have a little child to lead that menagerie of animals around. Now where are you going to get unless there’s some saints redeemed during a period between the rapture and the return? Therefore we believe the rapture must come before the return and at the beginning of the tribulation.

Well, 1 Thessalonians 4, verse 13, this describes the rapture: “I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them who are asleep.” Now they were worried because some Christians had died and they thought they might be second-class citizens and miss out on the rapture. And so they go down and they say in verse 16, “The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Not only are they not going to miss, they’re going to go first. This is the rapture. The dead bodies rise to meet the souls that have been with the Lord. If a person dies now, his spirit immediately is in the presence of Christ. Later on his body will be a glorified body resurrected to meet his spirit already with Christ. So the dead bodies rise to meet the spirits. “Then we who are left alive and remain are caught together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” All right, there’s the rapture. Everybody goes. See? Don’t worry about the dead ones, they go too. “Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

Now immediately the question is going to come up, “Well, when does this happen?” Look at verse 1 of chapter 5. “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” “Of the times and the seasons, you have no need that I write unto you.” Jesus said that I better make sure I’m not up on the roof without my bags packed, and I’d better make sure that I’ve got all my clothes together, and I better make sure it isn’t winter and I’ve got food, and I better make sure my wife doesn’t have a baby and that I don’t have little children, because it’s going to be hot and heavy and fast, and I’ll barely escape with my life if I do.

Paul would never have said, “Comfort one another with these words, and you don’t need to know when it’s going to come.” That would be the height of ridiculous statements. “Oh, don’t worry about it, it’s nothing. You don’t have any need to know. All it is is tribulation that’s going to realize the ultimate disaster of the world.” That would be a foolish statement, “Of the times and seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” Well, that would contradict what Jesus said if we’re going through the tribulation.

“For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. For when they shall say, ‘Peace and safety!’ then sudden destruction cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape.” But watch this. Who shall not escape? What is the pronoun? “They shall not escape.”

Verse 4: “But,” – what’s the pronoun? – “ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief.” Do you see a difference? “Somebody’s going to get it when the day of the Lord comes, but you, brethren, aren’t going to be there. It’s not going to overtake you.” Why? “You are sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of the darkness.”

Look at verse 8-9. He says just live the Christian life. “Put on the breastplate of faith and love, and helmet, the hope of salvation.” And then what do you do? – verse 9 – “for God hath not appointed us to” – what? – “wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” The word “salvation” in the Greek means deliverance. He hasn’t appointed us to wrath, but to deliverance, “who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live” – what? – “together with Him.”

We’re not appointed to judgment, we’re appointed to be with Him, That’s where we’re going to be. And while the judgment hits the world, whether a believer has died or whether he’s alive, we’re going to be with Jesus. I’ll tell you, friends, I am not looking for Antichrist, I’m looking for Christ. And then in 11, he says, “Wherefore comfort yourselves together.” Now there’s no comfort in going through the tribulation, believe me. Only possible for comfort if we’re going to escape.

Ivan, I’m not sure you read past the first sentence of my post but I will answer a couple of points.

Ivan: << Rev 3 8 “‘I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut. I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. >>

You are quoting the words of Christ to the Church at Philadelphia in the letters section of Revelation. The Church at Philadelphia is a church that existed in the first century. When Christ says “you have but little power,” that means that they are few in numbers, it is a small church. When the letter says that they will be spared “the hour of trial,” the most likely explanation is that because their church is so small, it does not attract persecution.

I am aware that many Dispensationalists try to identify the churches mentioned in Revelation 2 and 3 with whole periods of Christian history, but I don’t go along with this. There is no promise that all of the world’s Christians at any point in time will be immune from persecution.

Ivan: << The Church won't be here when the bowls of wrath are poured. From Revelation 12 we know that the devil will be cast down to Earth. That's why God says 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” >>

What do we make of the Devil being cast down to earth in Revelation 12:9? Satan hasn’t been in God’s heaven for thousands of years. I think you are taking a symbolic narrative literally. The sky represents the world stage, what the nations and their leaders are doing. The Devil being cast down could simply means that paganism and idolatry have been knocked down in large parts of the world during the Christian era. Closer to the present, the Nazi regime in Germany certainly has a satanic absence of morality. The Nazi regime was destroyed, cast down, knocked off of the world stage.

They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the
word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
Revelation 12:11 NIV

Only two verses after Satan is “cast down” in Revelation 12:9, we are once more reminded that there are martyrs. The martyrs overcome Satan “by the blood of the Lamb” and did not shrink from death. No, Revelation does not portray a world where Christians free from persecution.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

-
​

Ok then explain how Jesus return is not known “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. The rapture is an event that happens in one day and hour, but the tribulation is a 7 year long event.

But Jesus states watch for the signs of His return.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

When do you believe the following, the timing of which is unknown, will occur? Before or after the supposed 7 year tribulation?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.