Grace

[NextLevel]

God is both just and loving/merciful.

Both his justice and his mercy are glorified.

How? Not many people would call a father who capriciously decides to save 2 of his sons while allowing 3 to drown as "merciful."

Would you call such a father merciful?

And how does what you believe about God differ from they hypothetical that I presented?

A Biblical, rather than a fallen-human, mind would be useful here. . .

Well, all of the people in the Bible are fallen-humans, except for our Lord.

But that's fine. You were kind enough to answer some of my questions. I think you got the point, so I will answer yours.

Let's say a king has one son, Adam.

Let's say that grown son rebels and builds an army loyal to him in overthrowing his father.
How much mercy will the king show to any member of that army, including his son?

I don't know what that King would do. But I can tell you what I would do if I were the King.

If I were the King, and I captured the rebel army, I would forgive my son and any members of the army who asked for forgiveness and decided to join my army going forward.

If none of them asked for forgiveness and declared that they would continue to rebel against me, I would probably throw them all in jail or expel them to some far-off place so that they could not harm me further.

What would you do?

 

[NextLevel]

I know for a fact that you can't make yourself savingly believe in and trust on Jesus Christ for the remission of your sin.

I agree with you on this point, to a certain extent. God has to give man grace (or gifts if you want to use another phrase) to enable him to believe. Without help from God, man would not come to belief by himself, if that is what you mean. That initial grace may come by the way of God prompting the man's intellect, exposing him to the gospel, or showing His existence to him through the beauty of nature, for example.

 

[NextLevel]

Let's say a king has one son, Adam.

Let's say that grown son rebels and builds an army loyal to him in overthrowing his father.
How many life preservers will the king be throwing to that army in the moat as it comes for him?

I think you edited your post to change the hypothetical (which is fine). I will try to interact with this one too, if you prefer this version.

In this situation, I doubt that the King would throw any life preservers to that army in the moat.

How about you?

 

[d taylor]

-
​

Eternal Life is a gift to be received (by belief in Jesus) and not a goal to achieve (by good works).

 

[NextLevel]

​

Eternal Life is a gift to be received (by belief in Jesus) and not a goal to achieve (by good works).

I like the way the Pope Benedict put it here:

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

www.vatican.va

Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God's gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ's Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

 

[fhansen]

I like the way the Pope Benedict put it here:

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

General Audience of 19 November 2008: Saint Paul (13). The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith

www.vatican.va

Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God's gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ's Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther's phrase: "faith alone" is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

There's wisdom there, alright: the wisdom of the gospel and the wisdom of the ages-from our predecessors who've pondered His word.

 

[NextLevel]

The unsaved are God's enemies (Ro 5:10), by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).
Only the redeemed are his children (Jn 1:12-13).

Here, all people are born unsaved. You were saved as an adult when you put your faith in Jesus, right?

On what basis does God choose to save some people and not save other people?

Is it purely a capricious decision in your view? Random? God rolls cosmic dice and decides who gets saved based on the number that hits?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In Catholic theology, grace is understood as the free and unmerited gift of God's love and mercy extended to humanity. It is a supernatural assistance that enables individuals to grow in faith, resist sin, and live virtuous lives.

Types of Grace in Catholic Theology​

Catholic doctrine distinguishes between different forms of grace:

1. Sanctifying Grace – A habitual gift that perfects the soul, making it holy and allowing participation in divine life.
2. Actual Grace – A temporary divine help given for specific actions, enabling individuals to perform good deeds and avoid sin.
3. Sacramental Grace – The grace conferred through the sacraments, each providing unique spiritual benefits.
4. Prevenient Grace – The grace that precedes human action, preparing the soul to receive further divine assistance.

Theological Significance​

Grace is central to Catholic theology as it is the means by which humans are justified and sanctified. It is understood as the self-communication of God through Christ in the Holy Spirit, allowing believers to share in divine life and maintain a personal relationship with the Trinity. The concept of grace also relates to human freedom, as individuals must cooperate with divine assistance while maintaining their free will.

 

[NextLevel]

In Catholic theology, grace is understood as the free and unmerited gift of God's love and mercy extended to humanity. It is a supernatural assistance that enables individuals to grow in faith, resist sin, and live virtuous lives.

Types of Grace in Catholic Theology​

Catholic doctrine distinguishes between different forms of grace:

1. Sanctifying Grace – A habitual gift that perfects the soul, making it holy and allowing participation in divine life.
2. Actual Grace – A temporary divine help given for specific actions, enabling individuals to perform good deeds and avoid sin.
3. Sacramental Grace – The grace conferred through the sacraments, each providing unique spiritual benefits.
4. Prevenient Grace – The grace that precedes human action, preparing the soul to receive further divine assistance.

Theological Significance​

Grace is central to Catholic theology as it is the means by which humans are justified and sanctified. It is understood as the self-communication of God through Christ in the Holy Spirit, allowing believers to share in divine life and maintain a personal relationship with the Trinity. The concept of grace also relates to human freedom, as individuals must cooperate with divine assistance while maintaining their free will.

I would add that an increase in grace can be merited by a person who is in Christ, if "merit" is properly understood in the sense of receiving a reward, rather than being paid what is owed as a debt.

 

[Clare73]

All Christian beliefs come from the word of God, whether written or unwritten.

Where do we have the authoritative word of God not written?

Then in the context of Clare's interpretations, that may be true, not in the context of Christian interpretations.

The only context for interpretation is Scripture.

Paul says otherwise,

Contraire. . .

there's no excuse. God gives us the reason and ability to believe. We can refuse, or hide, that gift of faith, or we can accept and express it.

Nonsense. Jesus is God.

So Muslims believe in Christ. . .

And:
"Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God."

Did you overlook something essential?

Wishful, unscriptural thinking.

 

[Clare73]

How? Not many people would call a father who capriciously decides to save 2 of his sons while allowing 3 to drown as "merciful."

Would you call such a father merciful?

Bible 101:

"My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

 

[Clare73]

I think you edited your post to change the hypothetical (which is fine). I will try to interact with this one too, if you prefer this version.

In this situation, I doubt that the King would throw any life preservers to that army in the moat.

How about you?

Does that make him an unloving King or a just King?

 

[Clare73]

Here, all people are born unsaved. You were saved as an adult when you put your faith in Jesus, right?

On what basis does God choose to save some people and not save other people?

Is it purely a capricious decision in your view? Random? God rolls cosmic dice and decides who gets saved based on the number that hits?

Actually he uses the casting of lots (Nu 33:54, Lk 1:9, Ac 1:26).

 

[Clare73]

In Catholic theology, grace is understood as the free and unmerited gift of God's love and mercy extended to humanity. It is a supernatural assistance that enables individuals to grow in faith, resist sin, and live virtuous lives.Types of Grace in Catholic Theology
Catholic doctrine distinguishes between different forms of grace:

1. Sanctifying Grace – A habitual gift that perfects the soul, making it holy and allowing participation in divine life.
2. Actual Grace – A temporary divine help given for specific actions, enabling individuals to perform good deeds and avoid sin.
3. Sacramental Grace – The grace conferred through the sacraments, each providing unique spiritual benefits.
4. Prevenient Grace – The grace that precedes human action, preparing the soul to receive further divine assistance.

Theological Significance​

Grace is central to Catholic theology as it is the means by which humans are justified and sanctified. It is understood as the self-communication of God through Christ in the Holy Spirit, allowing believers to share in divine life and maintain a personal relationship with the Trinity. The concept of grace also relates to human freedom, as individuals must cooperate with divine assistance while maintaining their free will.

In the NT, justification (declaration of not guilty, sentence of acquittal) is by faith (Ro 3:28),
which faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3),
and sanctification (holiness) is by obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

 

[RileyG]

According to the NT, we don't "achieve" salvation.
Faith is a gift (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) through which the Holy Spirit applies salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

Amen. No disagreement from me.

 

[RileyG]

I suspect that Christians do, but you say that you don't.

For the record, I agree with the OP. I think "achieve" can be interpreted as "gaining." One cannot "gain" a free gift.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Where do we have the authoritative word of God not written?

In the life, the experience, of the church, of course:
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15

It's only presumption to insist that it must be all written.

The only context for interpretation is Scripture.

That's what everyone believes, regardless of how much they may disagree with the next person who believes the same.

So Muslims believe in Christ. . .

Only Christ, "the express image of God", by everything He said and did, reveals the true God. That God is who we're called to believe in.

Did you overlook something essential?

No, just quoted God's word. Again, to believe in God is believe in the One whom He sent, because only the Son reveals that God.

 

[Clare73]

In the life, the experience, of the church, of course:
"So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thess 2:15

It's only presumption to insist that it must be all written.

The real presumption here is thinking you have Paul's word when it is not written.

 

[Richard T]

Amen. No disagreement from me.

If faith is just a gift, how is it that "faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of God?" Those who hear more are likely to have more faith. That is the reason why some nations have more Christians, more preaching the word = more faith in the audience. More faith in the audience = more salvations. "The word does not return void" seems to also suggest this. I do not believe in limited atonement or salvation being only for the elect. God wills that none should perish, why would he go against his own will? It seems it is the human will that rejects God. Intercession for unbelievers too can help change that. Charles Finney was quite known for that. He would pray and fast for a city until there was some serious repentance. Here is an excerpt from that revival.
"The revival steadily increased and touched every segment of the community, until it seemed that the whole city would be converted. So many railroad workers were converted that the Sunday train schedules had to be suspended so the employees could attend church services. Pastor J. H. Mclevaine of the First Presbyterian Church said that this was the most powerful work of grace he had ever witnessed. He also described the priority of the daily prayer meetings in the revival. He writes, “A prayer meeting was held every day at 10 o’clock, averaging from 800 to 1,000 attendance. The whole population of Rochester rocked as if the city had been shaken by an earthquake.”[4]" The Revival Convergence of Charles Finney & the Collegiate Day of Prayer | Collegiate Day of Prayer

So prayer affects the condition of the heart of the potential believer, and the word preached gives the person faith to believe. Still, it is a decision of man's will because God wills all to be saved. God so loved the world" Yes, I have seen how some twist the word "world" to be less than the whole world. I think that disheartening. Hasn't anyone ever fasted and prayed for someone that saw tangible results? Fairly recently a woman I know went seriously into fasting for her two sisters. The very next time she saw both of her sisters, they accepted the Lord right then. The power of intercession and fasting can work.
If God determines everyone's salvation, why would he say this in Ezekiel?
Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Yes, I know there are some scriptures that are used to justify both positions. So, forgive me if I preach the Finney method which in my experience works. It is the same method used by most of the great evangelists in contemporary times. They believed God wanted to save everyone and they preached like it.

 

[fhansen]

The real presumption here is thinking you have Paul's word when it is not written.

Nope. the church, Christ's disciples, had received, held, and spread God's word before a word of the new testament was written. And that gospel was proclaimed throughout the world regardless of whether or not the hearers were even literate, which many millions down through the centuries were not. Presumption is to pick up a Book centuries after the fact, divorced from its historical context and presume to fully understand it just by the mere reading, and without regard to the understanding of the cloud of witnesses who preceded us.