I feel like I can't relate to God or other Christians

[All Becomes New]

Really, a website against Paul's clear words? And you need to stop judging my Christianity.

The article uses Paul's words better than you do, sir.

 

[trophy33]

The article uses Paul's words better than you do, sir.

I just quoted them. You can check in Greek, it really says "spiritual".

σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν.

Sir.

 

[All Becomes New]

I just quoted them. You can check in Greek, it really says "spiritual".

σπείρεται σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἐγείρεται σῶμα πνευματικόν. Εἰ ἔστιν σῶμα ψυχικόν, ἔστιν καὶ πνευματικόν.

Sir.

Piper knows Greek as well. So I guess you can do your "me and the Bible with no one else," but that does not make one part of the church.

 

[trophy33]

Piper knows Greek as well. So I guess you can do your "me and the Bible with no one else," but that does not make one part of the church.

Eeh, just stop.

 

[All Becomes New]

Eeh, just stop.

What does it mean that Christ is the "first fruits"? What does that mean?

 

[Jamdoc]

We will not physically rise from the dead:

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1C 15:44

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1C 15:50

Was Paul not an orthodox Christian? Our new bodies are not physical.

Philippians 3

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

and how was Jesus' body after the resurrection?
It ate food, it could be touched, it still bore the wounds from the cross.
John 20

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

Spiritual body doesn't mean it's not physical, just that it's no longer the flesh warring against the spirit as our current condition is.

we don't flit about as Casper the ghosts forever.

 

[trophy33]

Philippians 3


and how was Jesus' body after the resurrection?
It ate food, it could be touched, it still bore the wounds from the cross.
John 20


Spiritual body doesn't mean it's not physical, just that it's no longer the flesh warring against the spirit as our current condition is.

we don't flit about as Casper the ghosts forever.

Spiritual body can project in our physical reality, but a physical body cannot project to spiritual reality.

Not only Jesus, but also angels were described several times in the Bible to act as physical when they wanted. For example:

Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!”
Acts 12:7

 

[All Becomes New]

Spiritual body can project in our physical reality, but a physical body cannot project to spiritual reality.

You are using your feeble philosophies against the Word of God.

 

[trophy33]

You are using your feeble philosophies against the Word of God.

You just like to argue, not interested.

 

[All Becomes New]

You just like to argue, not interested.

Is truth important?
Is there a correct view?
Is the Bible your authority?

If the answer to these questions is "yes," then you should still dialogue with me.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

as I was out in the garden today I just.. think about how I just don't feel like I was meant for heaven.
all the grandiose, all the jewels and gold, all the big choirs singing praise and harps of gold and glory glory glory glory ...
to me that's just all disappointing and meh.
I know this is going to come across really wrong but.. when I hear "glory" I think "ego stroking" I think trumping things up. I think tacky. I think obsequious displays. I think of a fat king lounging on a golden throne adorned in jewels basking in obsequious worship displays while being fanned and fed grapes. A stereotype. A stereotype that I hate.
But other people love that sort of thing. Other Christians especially.

to me a garden has more appeal than a temple
a beach more appeal than a palace
a mountain more appeal than a throne
birdsong more beautiful than any choir to my ears
a sunset more beautiful than any gold
the stars more beautiful than any jewels

It makes me long for Eden, not heaven, and I never get better at that.

so I get depressed when I think of our end point being .. palaces, thrones, jewels, gold, obsequious praise and worship and grandiose displays, no night sky, no seas, no mountains just flat plains for grazing. Like the God who created Earth and Eden .. just decided He cares more about temples and thrones and palaces and Jewels than His initial very good creation. Imagine loving the God who created Earth and Eden, but He seems like He changed over time to being someone else who is harder to love and became someone you can't relate to anymore. Imagine everyone else also being unrelatable because they relate to all the palaces and gold and glory, and you just.. can't.

It feels isolating. I can be in the middle of a church, in the middle of a party, in the middle of a crowd.. and feel so totally alone and isolated. Like I don't even "get" my creator, because He wants things that I can't find desirable.

am I truly the only one who finds glory "meh"?

I'd feel the same. And notions of physical things are probably not what that state will bring.

I've felt, in a very limited sense I'm sure, the Love of God in my heart. And that is a different matter altogether.

God is A Spirit, Invisible, Unseen. But He does warm my heart from time to time, bringing hope.

The matters of the Spirit are not found in physical things, imho. They can be had in tastes in the here and now, and later, a feast of sorts, but still far from my own imaginations in the moment

 

[fhansen]

as I was out in the garden today I just.. think about how I just don't feel like I was meant for heaven.
all the grandiose, all the jewels and gold, all the big choirs singing praise and harps of gold and glory glory glory glory ...
to me that's just all disappointing and meh.
I know this is going to come across really wrong but.. when I hear "glory" I think "ego stroking" I think trumping things up. I think tacky. I think obsequious displays. I think of a fat king lounging on a golden throne adorned in jewels basking in obsequious worship displays while being fanned and fed grapes. A stereotype. A stereotype that I hate.
But other people love that sort of thing. Other Christians especially.

to me a garden has more appeal than a temple
a beach more appeal than a palace
a mountain more appeal than a throne
birdsong more beautiful than any choir to my ears
a sunset more beautiful than any gold
the stars more beautiful than any jewels

It makes me long for Eden, not heaven, and I never get better at that.

so I get depressed when I think of our end point being .. palaces, thrones, jewels, gold, obsequious praise and worship and grandiose displays, no night sky, no seas, no mountains just flat plains for grazing. Like the God who created Earth and Eden .. just decided He cares more about temples and thrones and palaces and Jewels than His initial very good creation. Imagine loving the God who created Earth and Eden, but He seems like He changed over time to being someone else who is harder to love and became someone you can't relate to anymore. Imagine everyone else also being unrelatable because they relate to all the palaces and gold and glory, and you just.. can't.

It feels isolating. I can be in the middle of a church, in the middle of a party, in the middle of a crowd.. and feel so totally alone and isolated. Like I don't even "get" my creator, because He wants things that I can't find desirable.

am I truly the only one who finds glory "meh"?

God's glory is His love, His ineffable, exhilarating, uncompromising, egoless, sheer goodness. All the rest is fluff, someone trying to explain or define or describe the grandeur of that goodness, or their concept of it, in anthropomorphic terms.

But as it is, the human mind simply cannot imagine, much less describe it. That "knowledge of God", whose presence makes heaven what it is, is pure grace.

 

[Jamdoc]

Spiritual body can project in our physical reality, but a physical body cannot project to spiritual reality.

Not only Jesus, but also angels were described several times in the Bible to act as physical when they wanted. For example:

Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!”
Acts 12:7

It's not a "projection" It's Him.

Luke 24

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

If Jesus resurrected in a body with flesh and bones and described Himself not as a spirit, but as Himself, why are we to "resurrect" in Non corporeal abstractions?

God created man body first. We were always meant to be corporeal beings bearing God's image on a physical, tangible creation.

Genesis 2:

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

He formed the man body first then gave it spirit, and then it became a soul.
The body is important.

To be absolutely fair, when I read scriptures' descriptions of God being in human terms, describing Himself with body parts, I like it better. I can relate to that. I can't relate to intangible abstract concepts. So when people try to make God abstract, when people try to focus on this.. Greek.... PAGAN concept of spirit worlds and eternal abstract existence....
it makes the very topic of this thread INFINITELY WORSE
it does not help, it HURTS more.
because it wedges a line between me, and them, that I can't relate to, which is a source of isolation for me.

 

[trophy33]

To be absolutely fair, when I read scriptures' descriptions of God being in human terms, describing Himself with body parts, I like it better. I can relate to that. I can't relate to intangible abstract concepts.

Yeah, I noticed your inclination to see things physically, like in this world, what you can touch or see. And you want (or at least expect) heaven to be familiar to your worldly experiences. It is a natural inclination, but misleading and limiting, IMO.

 

[timothyu]

James Tabor's view of this issue

 

[Spiritual Jew]

as I was out in the garden today I just.. think about how I just don't feel like I was meant for heaven.
all the grandiose, all the jewels and gold, all the big choirs singing praise and harps of gold and glory glory glory glory ...
to me that's just all disappointing and meh.
I know this is going to come across really wrong but.. when I hear "glory" I think "ego stroking" I think trumping things up. I think tacky. I think obsequious displays. I think of a fat king lounging on a golden throne adorned in jewels basking in obsequious worship displays while being fanned and fed grapes. A stereotype. A stereotype that I hate.
But other people love that sort of thing. Other Christians especially.

to me a garden has more appeal than a temple
a beach more appeal than a palace
a mountain more appeal than a throne
birdsong more beautiful than any choir to my ears
a sunset more beautiful than any gold
the stars more beautiful than any jewels

It makes me long for Eden, not heaven, and I never get better at that.

so I get depressed when I think of our end point being .. palaces, thrones, jewels, gold, obsequious praise and worship and grandiose displays, no night sky, no seas, no mountains just flat plains for grazing. Like the God who created Earth and Eden .. just decided He cares more about temples and thrones and palaces and Jewels than His initial very good creation. Imagine loving the God who created Earth and Eden, but He seems like He changed over time to being someone else who is harder to love and became someone you can't relate to anymore. Imagine everyone else also being unrelatable because they relate to all the palaces and gold and glory, and you just.. can't.

It feels isolating. I can be in the middle of a church, in the middle of a party, in the middle of a crowd.. and feel so totally alone and isolated. Like I don't even "get" my creator, because He wants things that I can't find desirable.

am I truly the only one who finds glory "meh"?

If only you could understand that a lot of that stuff is all just symbolic and not literal, then you would not be so disappointed and pessimistic. We will not be disappointed once we are in eternity. Trust me. You think you know what it will be like, but you are wrong. You can't even imagine it. But, you can imagine "temples and thrones and palaces and jewels", so it's not going to be like what you imagine it will be.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We will not physically rise from the dead:

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
1C 15:44

I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1C 15:50

Was Paul not an orthodox Christian? Our new bodies are not physical.

A spiritual body does not imply that it is not physical. Jesus could touch things and eat after His resurrection. He had a spiritual body. He appeared seemingly out of nowhere to the disciples in a locked building after His resurrection. A spiritual body is one that is immortal and incorruptible. Do you think Jesus could have died again after His resurrection? Of course not. His resurrection body that could be touched and that He used to eat was immortal and incorruptible. What 1 Corinthians 15:50 is talking about is MORTAL flesh and blood.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

well scenes from Isaiah 6 and Revelation show all thrones temples gold jewels, etc.
and that's the best we got to work with.

It's symbolic text. Also, there will be no temple on the eternal new earth.

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yeah, I noticed your inclination to see things physically, like in this world, what you can touch or see. And you want (or at least expect) heaven to be familiar to your worldly experiences. It is a natural inclination, but misleading and limiting, IMO.

the abstract existence is a Greek thought invention.

The bible refers to a tangible real world.

Augustine did so much damage to Christian theology by trying to hybridize it with Greek Stoic thought that it's just unreal.

 

[All Becomes New]

the abstract existence is a Greek thought invention.

The bible refers to a tangible real world.

Augustine did so much damage to Christian theology by trying to hybridize it with Greek Stoic thought that it's just unreal.

You have now had multiple orthodox Christians tell you, more or less, "You conception of heaven is wrong." I would listen. I agree that the resurrection is physical, but it is also spiritual, and we are talking about being in the presence of an infinite being for all eternity. How could that be dull?