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The Liturgist

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Never abrogated by God, the church after the Bible did so and they admit they did it on their own authority over God’s.

The Orthodox Church has never made such an admission. I have seen Roman Catholic documents that refer to the church changing the sabbath to Sunday, but the Orthodox Church does not make that claim. I am reasonably certain Ellen G. White was unaware that we even existed, for if she were, she would have had to address the fact that the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, and Ethiopian Orthodox have worship services on every Sabbath throughout the year and no Sabbath is an aliturgical day for us.
 
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trophy33

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It is essential because it contains the prophecies of Christ, that describe who He is and what He was sent to do, which is to bring salvation to us.
It is useful, but not essential. Christ could save the world without any letter of the Old Testament and Christians can live full and godly life without ever reading the Old Testament.
 
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The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11, written and spoken by the Highest Authority of all, God

Jesus Christ is God, and St. Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ, speaking on His behalf, and St. Paul said plainly in Colossians 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

Because I believe the Bible I cannot accept the SDA interpretation of how the Sabbath is supposed to be celebrated, because of the manner in which Adventists seem to regard those who disagree with their interpretation.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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There is no scripture that Sabbath commandment was abrogated. But there is a church who claims to be above God’s Word that tales credit for this change.

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.


Q. Have you any other proofs that they(Protestants) are not guided by the Scripture?
A. Yes; so many, that we cannot admit more than a mere specimen into this small work. They reject much that is clearly contained in Scripture, and profess more that is nowhere discoverable in that Divine Book.
Q. Give some examples of both?
A. They should, if the Scripture were their only rule, wash the feet of one another, according to the command of Christ, in the 13th chap. of St. John; —they should keep, not the Sunday, but the Saturday, according to the commandment, "Remember thou keep holy the SABBATH-day;" for this commandment has not, in Scripture, been changed or abrogated;...
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 101 Imprimatuer



Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Q. In what manner can we show a Protestant, that he speaks unreasonably against fasts and abstinences?

A. Ask him why he keeps Sunday, and not Saturday, as his day of rest, since he is unwilling either to fast or to abstain. If he reply, that the Scripture orders him to keep the Sunday, but says nothing as to fasting and abstinence, tell him the Scripture speaks of Saturday or the Sabbath, but gives no command anywhere regarding Sunday or the first day of the week.
If, then he neglects Saturday as a day of rest and holiness, and substitutes Sunday in its place, and this merely because such was the usage of the ancient Church, should he not, if he wishes to act consistently, observe fasting and abstinence, because the ancient Church so ordained?
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 181


Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.
Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50


Q. Must not a sensible Protestant doubt seriously, when he finds that even the Bible is not followed as a rule by his co-religionists?
A. Surely, when he sees them baptize infants, abrogate the Jewish Sabbath, and observe Sunday for which [pg. 7] there is no Scriptural authority; when he finds them neglect to wash one another's feet, which is expressly commanded, and eat blood and things strangled, which are expressly prohibited in Scripture. He must doubt, if he think at all. ...
Q. Should not the Protestant doubt when he finds that he himself holds tradition as a guide?
A. Yes, if he would but reflect that he has nothing but Catholic Tradition for keeping the Sunday holy; ...
—Controversial Catechism by Stephen Keenan, New Edition, revised by Rev. George Cormack, published in London by Burns & Oates, Limited - New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: Benzinger Brothers, 1896, pages 6, 7.

The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.
—The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.


The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
—The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.


All of us believe many things in regard to religion that we do not find in the Bible. For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the Church outside the Bible.
—The Catholic Virginian, To Tell You The Truth,” Vol. 22, No. 49 (Oct. 3, 1947).


... you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.
—The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.
Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.


But since Saturday, not Sunday, is specified in the Bible, isn't it curious that non-Catholics who profess to take their religion directly from the Bible and not the Church, observe Sunday instead of Saturday? Yes, of course, it is inconsistent; but this change was made about fifteen centuries before Protestantism was born, and by that time the custom was universally observed.

They have continued the custom, even though it rests upon the authority of the Catholic Church and not upon an explicit text in the Bible. That observance remains as a reminder of the Mother Church from which the non-Catholic sects broke away - like a boy running away from home but still carrying in his pocket a picture of his mother or a lock of her hair.
—The Faith of Millions

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.
—Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.
—Monsignor Louis Segur, ‘Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today’, p. 213.


What Important Question Does the Papacy Ask Protestants?
Protestants have repeatedly asked the papacy, "How could you dare to change God's law?" But the question posed to Protestants by the Catholic church is even more penetrating.
Here it is officially: You will tell me that Saturday was the Jewish Sabbath, but that the Christian Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. Changed! but by whom? Who has authority to change an express commandment of Almighty God? When God has spoken and said, Thou shalt keep holy the seventh day, who shall dare to say, Nay, thou mayest work and do all manner of worldly business on the seventh day; but thou shalt keep holy the first day in its stead?

This is a most important question, which I know not how you can answer. You are a Protestant, and you profess to go by the Bible and the Bible only; and yet in so important a matter as the observance of one day in seven as a holy day, you go against the plain letter of the Bible, and put another day in the place of that day which the Bible has commanded.

The command to keep holy the seventh day is one of the ten commandments; you believe that the other nine are still binding; who gave you authority to tamper with the fourth? If you are consistent with your own principles, if you really follow the Bible and the Bible only, you ought to be able to produce some portion of the New Testament in which this fourth commandment is expressly altered.
—Library of Christian Doctrine: Why Don't You Keep Holy the Sabbath-Day? (London: Burns and Oates, Ltd.), pp. 3, 4.


There is but one church on the face of the earth which has the power, or claims power, to make laws binding on the conscience, binding before God, binding under penalty of hell-fire. For instance, the institution of Sunday. What right has any other church to keep this day? You answer by virtue of the third commandment (the papacy did away with the 2nd regarding the worship of graven images, and called the 4th the 3rd), which says 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.'

But Sunday is not the Sabbath. Any schoolboy knows that Sunday is the first day of the week. I have repeatedly offered one thousand dollars to anyone who will prove by the Bible alone that Sunday is the day we are bound to keep, and no one has called for the money. It was the holy Catholic Church that changed the day of rest from Saturday, the seventh day, to Sunday, the first day of the week.
—T. Enright, C.S.S.R., in a lecture delivered in 1893.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.
Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.
—Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

The Pope is of so great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine law". The pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts a vicegerent of God upon earth
—Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, art. Papa, II, Vol. VI, p. 29.


The leader of the Catholic church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers). The Pope is considered the man on earth who "takes the place" of the Second Person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity.
—John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, p. 3, 1994


...pastoral intuition suggested to the Church the christianization of the notion of Sunday as "the day of the sun", which was the Roman name for the day and which is retained in some modern languages.(29) This was in order to draw the faithful away from the seduction of cults which worshipped the sun, and to direct the celebration of the day to Christ, humanity's true 'sun'.
—John Paul II, Dies Domini, 27. The day of Christ-Light, 1998 (Prominent protestant leaders agree with this statement - <a href=/sabbath-history/denominational-statements-on-the-sabbath/id/baptist>See here for a statement by Dr. E. T. Hiscox, author of the ‘Baptist Manual’</a>)


The Sun was a foremost god with heathen-dom…The sun has worshippers at this hour in Persia and other lands…. There is, in truth, something royal, kingly about the sun, making it a fit emblem of Jesus, the Sun of Justice. Hence the church in these countries would seem to have said, to 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus.
—William Gildea, Doctor of Divinity, The Catholic World, March, 1894, p. 809


The retention of the old pagan name of Dies Solis, for Sunday is, in a great measure, owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects - pagan and Christian alike - as the 'venerable' day of the sun.
—Arthur P. Stanley, History of the Eastern Church, p. 184


When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God.
—Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, I951.


Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holydays?
Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of; and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.
—Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58 (Same statement in Manual of Christian Doctrine, ed. by Daniel Ferris [1916 ed.], p.67)


Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the NEW LAW, that he himself has explicitly substituted Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as holy days. The church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.
—Vincent J. Kelly, Forbidden Sunday and Feast-Day Occupations, Washington, DC, Catholic University of America Press, Studies in Sacred Theology, No. 70.,1943, p. 2.


If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday, with the Jews, instead of Sunday; ...
—A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, by Rev. John Laux M.A., Benzinger Brothers, 1936 edition, Part 1.
Sunday is a Catholic institution, and... can be defended only on Catholic principles.... From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.
—Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900


The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday. The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday. Protestants must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, 'Keep holy the Sabbath Day.' The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible, so, without knowing it they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church.
—Canon Cafferata, The Catechism Explained, p. 89.


Reason and sense demand the acceptance of one or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.
—John Cardinal Gibbons, The Catholic Mirror, December 23, 1893.
 
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The Liturgist

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It is useful, but not essential. Christ could save the world without any letter of the Old Testament and Christians can live full and godly life without ever reading the Old Testament.

That’s simply not the case, because the Old Testament proves His identity, and that of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Really, your hostility towards the Old Testament surprises me and is not helpful. None of the early Church Fathers called for us to adhere to the Old Testament in a legalistic way, but all of them commended it as an essential body of Scripture for the edification of the faithful.

Indeed, the books of Isaiah, Genesis, the first half of Exodus, the Psalter, Tobith, Ecclesiastes, Ecclesiasticus, and the Wisdom of Solomon, and the long version of the book of Daniel, and the prophecies of Ezekiel and Jonah, are among the most important scriptural texts for the Orthodox.
 
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trophy33

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That’s simply not the case, because the Old Testament proves His identity, and that of the Father and the Holy Spirit.
You got it the other way around. Christians accepted and read the Old Testament, because they believed in Christ first and want to know the context. We do not believe in Christ because we read the Old Testament first and then heard about Christ.
 
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The Liturgist

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There is no scripture that Sabbath commandment was abrogated. But there is a church who claims to be above God’s Word that tales credit for this change.

Again, the Orthodox Church does not claim to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday. And I have no idea what you are lecturing other Protestants about.

St. Paul clearly says, and I quote, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Colossians 2:15)
 
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trophy33

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Really, your hostility towards the Old Testament surprises me and is not helpful.
Hostility is something totally different from minimalism. When I say it is not necessary, it does not mean hostility.
 
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The Liturgist

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You got it the other way around. Christians accepted and read the Old Testament, because they believed in Christ first and want to know the context. We do not believe in Christ because we read the Old Testament first and then heard about Christ.

You misunderstood me. I was saying that the Old Testament provided the Christians with the explanation as to who Christ was.

It is of course the case that reading the Old Testament would not reveal who Christ was except to the most pious, such as St. Symeon, who in Luke chapter 2 recognized the infant Christ as His Savior.

The reason for this, as St. Peter taught, is that no prophecy is an exposition of itself. Thus, the exposition of the Old Testament prophecies was given by Christ to the Apostles in the Book of Luke, as you said, and this was disseminated to the Church.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hostility is something totally different from minimalism. When I say it is not necessary, it does not mean hostility.

I understand where you are coming from now, and I beg your forgiveness for mischaracterizing your earlier position.
 
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JesusFollowerForever

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Jesus Christ is God, and St. Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ, speaking on His behalf, and St. Paul said plainly in Colossians 2:16

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

Because I believe the Bible I cannot accept the SDA interpretation of how the Sabbath is supposed to be celebrated, because of the manner in which Adventists seem to regard those who disagree with their interpretation.
There are about 13 different sabbaths in the bible, paul here is not referencing the saturday weekly sabbath.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Again, the Orthodox Church does not claim to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday. And I have no idea what you are lecturing other Protestants about.

St. Paul clearly says, and I quote, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Colossians 2:15)
With this interpetation which the content starts a few verses before at Col 2:14KJV, means that God made the Sabbath at Creation Exo 20:11 to be contrary and against man, so God was against man right after He created man in His image and rested on the seventh day of Creation. Gen 2:1-3. The Sabbath God said was a blessing when we keep Isa 56:1-6 and a sign of our sanctification in Christ Eze 22:12 because man can’t sanctify themselves despite their best efforts Isa 66:17

This is the same doctrine that claims God bewitched the Galatians for keeping the Ten Commandments and then turns around to say if breaking will be out of God’s Kingdom.

I see why Paul’s writings came with such a stern warning 2 Peter 3:16
 
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The Liturgist

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There are about 13 different sabbaths in the bible, paul here is not referencing the saturday weekly sabbath.

Alas there is nothing in the text that would support your conclusion.
 
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trophy33

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You misunderstood me. I was saying that the Old Testament provided the Christians with the explanation as to who Christ was.
Who Christ was in the Jewish context, yes. However, His position/status of the savior of the whole world is above and beyond the Jewish context.

The apostles could explain who Jesus is in basically 5 sentences (as we have some of their preaching to Gentiles), summarizing the universal concepts and then simply continued to preach the new way. They did not need to teach the Gentiles the Old Testament for a year first or anything like that.
 
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RandyPNW

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what Jeremiah 31: 32 states is that they broke the covenant;
I don't believe you're reading that right. The passage is saying that the Covenant will be different and new--not just that it will be unlike how though the 1st Covenant was broken the next Covenant will be the same but unbroken.

There is another passage in Jeremiah that indicates a change in the Covenant when the ark goes away. Jer 3.16. It indicates not just that the Covenant will finally be kept, but more, that the need for redemption, supplied by the superstructure of the Covenant, will no longer be needed.

This happened when the veil of the Temple was torn at the death of Christ, symbolizing the end of any need for redemption under the Law. Indeed, final redemption could only take place by Christ, as opposed to temporary acts of redemption under the Law.

John 1.17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Jer 31:32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt— a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

The Covenant are the 10 commandments;
The 10 Commandments were referenced as a summary of the whole Law, indicating that its essence was in Man's devotion to the word of God at creation, that we live in His image. To do this, we love God preeminently and following this we exhibit God's love in our human relationships.
 
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The Liturgist

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This is the same doctrine that claims God bewitched the Galatians for keeping the Ten Commandments and then turns around to say if breaking will be out of God’s Kingdom.

I see why Paul’s writings came with such a stern warning 2 Peter 3:16

So you’re saying St. Paul is in error? Because of what, exactly?

For there is no doctrine that claims that God bewitched the Galatians for keeping the Ten Commandments. That was never a claim made by myself or anyone else in this thread. That was your misinterpretation of Galatians 3; you seized upon the word “Bewitched” and then tried to suggest that I was saying that the Galatians were bewitched by the Decalogue, despite my repeated denials. Please don’t put words in my mouth.
 
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trophy33

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I see why Paul’s writings came with such a stern warning 2 Peter 3:16
It is interesting that you mention this warning only when somebody refers to verses that you do not like. When you use Paul's much more complicated places (like about the Law) to support your position, you do not mention this warning.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So you’re saying St. Paul is in error?
No, I am saying your interpterion of Paul is. Either God was against man at Creation Exo 20:11 Mark 2:27 and holy and blessed means contrary and against Col 2:14 or your understanding of Paul, which came with such warning people would twist to their own demise. Considering Paul kept every Sabbath decades at the Cross following the in the footsteps of Christ because the Sabbath is holy and blessed by God that no man can reverse Num 23:20 I am going with the latter. But we have free will to believe what we want and everything gets sorted out soon enough.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It is interesting that you mention this warning only when somebody refers to verses that you do not like. When you use Paul's much more complicated places (like about the Law) to support your position, you do not mention this warning.
Only when it goes against God's own Word, Paul can't save us only Jesus can, we are to abide and follow in Christ not anyone else. If you wish to believe God was against man at Creation that's your free will, but its not how I view our Savior who gave the Sabbath to bless and sanctify because we can't do this on our own.
 
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RandyPNW

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God's law is just that God's and God's people keep God's commandments Rev 14:12- His version. Is there ever a time anyone on earth could worship other god's, or vain His holy name, or covet or murder? The only commandment of God's Ten Commandments that people don't want is the 4th commandment, the day we are to spend dedicated to God, the one that God blessed and points us to the God of Creation..
No sense going around on the Sabbath Law again. You know I don't agree that the Church is under any obligation to observe a "Sabbath Day!"

The principle of obedience to God's Moral Law, however, I agree with. The Apostle John goes to length in 1 John to express how false Christians fail to take seriously the need to obey and become like Christ.

So let's not here tie obedience to Christ to obedience to the Law of Moses. It doesn't follow, with me, that these 2 things be tied together of necessity.
We need to follow the Lamb!
Yes, I agree we must follow the Lamb. But the Lamb died under the Law and rose up to give grace to the whole world, including Israel.
 
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