The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

[The Liturgist]

No, I am saying your interpterion of Paul is.

As I said, you misread what my interpretation was, repeatedly. You haven’t yet replied to what the interpretation was which I provided.

 

[The Liturgist]

Only when it goes against God's own Word, Paul can't save us only Jesus can, we are to abide and follow in Christ not anyone else. If you wish to believe God was against man at Creation that's your free will, but its not how I view our Savior who gave the Sabbath to bless and sanctify because we can't do this on our own.

How can God’s Word go against God’s Word?

The writings of St. Paul are divinely inspired.

 

[trophy33]

Only when it goes against God's own Word, Paul can't save us only Jesus can, we are to abide and follow in Christ not anyone else. If you wish to believe God was against man at Creation that's your free will, but its not how I view our Savior who gave the Sabbath to bless and sanctify because we can't do this on our own.

Oh, oh, such loaded reaction. Nobody here claims that Paul can save us. However, I will boldly claim that we are not supposed to copy the life of Christ, because our environment is different and we are not Jews. We must follow what applies to us and Paul was the apostle to Gentiles.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How can God’s Word go against God’s Word?

It doesn't

The writings of St. Paul are divinely inspired.

Yet the inspired Word has such warning I believe we should take serious over believing God was against man at Creation which is such a sad doctrine.

2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

There is more than one Sabbath in scripture and Paul made it abundantly clear if read in context what he was referring to, which is about handwritten, not finger written by God Exo 31:18, ordinances, not commandments by God Exo 20:6, that had to do with food, drink offerings which is not in the Ten Commandments but in the handwriting of ordinances that were set OUTSIDE the ark as a witness again, Deut 31:24-26 so contrary and against the whole context of this passage if read in context properly.

Hence why Paul and the apostles followed in the footsteps of Christ and kept God's commandments including the Sabbath. Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 Acts 15:21 Its all about choices and who we follow.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. All gets sorted out soon enough

 

[The Liturgist]

Considering Paul kept every Sabbath decades at the Cross

I keep every Sabbath at the Cross. You should not be judging me, especially not about how I keep the Sabbath, and even more so one should refrain from judgement about any liturgical matter of another denomination without knowledge of what it is that denomination does. Indeed Christians should refrain from judgement as a general rule. Christ our True God said “Judge not, lest yet not be judged.”

My position in this thread has never been that we should sin and not observe the decalogue, and it has never been that we should not keep the Sabbath, and it has never been that the Galatians were bewitched by the Decalogue.

All I have been arguing in this thread, from the start, is that the new covenant entails salvation from our sins through the grace of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave His life on the Cross as a ransom for our sin, and who offers us His blood of the New Covenant in the Eucharist together with His precious body for the remission of sins.

Do you disagree with John 3:16? Is believing on Jesus Christ not sufficient for salvation?

 

[The Liturgist]

which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

A good thing then none of us are unlearned and unstable persons who twist the Scriptures to my own destruction, then. I can confidently say the warning in 2 Peter does not apply to anyone who follows the ChristianForums Statement of Faith.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No sense going around on the Sabbath Law again. You know I don't agree that the Church is under any obligation to observe a "Sabbath Day!"

The principle of obedience to God's Moral Law, however, I agree with. The Apostle John goes to length in 1 John to express how false Christians fail to take seriously the need to obey and become like Christ.

So let's not here tie obedience to Christ to obedience to the Law of Moses. It doesn't follow, with me, that these 2 things be tied together of necessity.

Yes, I agree we must follow the Lamb. But the Lamb died under the Law and rose up to give grace to the whole world, including Israel.

Who deems what is moral and righteous, we do or God?

Do you know justice and righteous is the foundation of God's throne so what God deems righteous stays that way. Psa 119:142

Psa 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; loving devotion and faithfulness go before You.

This is God speaking here.....so I believe He has all authority to determine what is righteous Psa 119:172 and moral, not us. The Ten Commandments were never the Ten suggestions or optional choice. Its is God's personal Testimony Exo 31:18

Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

No wonder why the New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not new laws Heb 8:10 because God keeps His promises.


Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [c]Because narrow is the gate and [d]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I keep every Sabbath at the Cross. You should not be judging me, especially not about how I keep the Sabbath,

I never once said how you keep the Sabbath, I don't know you that's between you and God, all I have done is shown what the bible says how we are to keep it. I guess that why you quoted "you" instead of me saying this.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

A good thing then none of us are unlearned and unstable persons who twist the Scriptures to my own destruction, then. I can confidently say the warning in 2 Peter does not apply to anyone who follows the ChristianForums Statement of Faith.

I am pretty sure Jesus will be our Judge, not an online forum. 2 Cor 5:10

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It is possible but extremely rare, historically, the exception being martyrs, since once one has confessed Jesus Christ and is about to be executed, unless one then denies Christ in an effort to avoid execution, it seems unlikely that anything one could do in that moment would be accounted as sinful; Christ has promised us that those who confess Him before men, He will confess before the Father. Because the red martyrdom as the Celtic Christians called it (which they contrasted with the White Martyrdom of Matrimony, or the Green martyrdom of monasticism, which is an appropriate use of colors, since the ancient churches in their vestments and liturgies use red to symbolize martyrdom and green to symbolize new life, and white to symbolize Holy Matrimony since it is an iconographic analog of the marriage of Christ to His Bride the Church) guarantees salvation, martyrs are automatically glorified as saints in the Orthodox Church, as are confessors, that is to say, those known to have been tortured for their faith, who did not cease to confess it despite the torture.

Outside of those cases, it is rare to find someone who had reached such a level of progress that they had conquered the passions completely in this life, and even rarer to find someone who had managed to reach a level of holiness where God saw fit to deliver them up into Heaven bodily. St. Elijah and the Theotokos are the only two definite examples the Orthodox are aware of, with St. Enoch and St. Moses also probably having been assumed, and these assumptions were, except in the case of St. Elijah, post-mortem.

I can see in the case of Stephen (who presumably died while seeing Jesus standing) that there probably wasn't much time left for his flesh to get the better of him. So, in that sense, I agree that if we don't count the sinfulness of our own flesh against ourselves, and if there is a small enough window of time between our last sin and our physical deaths, it is possible to reach a point in life after which we sin no more.

 

[RandyPNW]

Who deems what is moral and righteous, we do or God?

Do you know justice and righteous is the foundation of God's throne so what God deems righteous stays that way. Psa 119:142

Psa 89:14 Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; loving devotion and faithfulness go before You.

This is God speaking here.....so I believe He has all authority to determine what is righteous Psa 119:172 and moral, not us. The Ten Commandments were never the Ten suggestions or optional choice. Its is God's personal Testimony Exo 31:18

Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:

“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”


6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Psa 89:34 My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.

No wonder why the New Covenant is established on better promises Heb 8:6 not new laws Heb 8:10 because God keeps His promises.


Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 [c]Because narrow is the gate and [d]difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

You are promoting Judaism--not Christianity.

 

[trophy33]

I am pretty sure Jesus will be our Judge, not an online forum. 2 Cor 5:10

"which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also with the rest of the Scriptures."

Or, is it OK now, because it is you who is quoting Paul? The rules of the game are a bit confusing.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are promoting Judaism--not Christianity.

God said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 not the Sabbath of the Jews. He claimed it as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 never only the holy day of the Jews. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and the word in Greek means mankind, in Hebrew, Adam. God made the Sabbath at Creation Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 when there was just man and God, no Jew. God's perfect plan before sin, before the devil hijacked this world and made a counterfeit of what God made holy and blessed. Man was made in the image of God in His likeness, God hallowed the Sabbath at Creation right after He made man in His image.

 

[RandyPNW]

God said the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10 not the Sabbath of the Jews. He claimed it as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 never only the holy day of the Jews.

I don't believe that to be true. God said He provided the Law only for Israel--not for all the nations. Israel was, at the time, God's only chosen People.

The Sabbath observance was part of the Law--not to be confused with God's Sabbath in Creation. You are confusing the 2.

Israel's Sabbath Law was designed to commemorate God's Sabbath in Creation, and even more so to reflect the fact Israel required it to show their continuing need for final redemption. God had no such need in Creation.

 

[The Liturgist]

I never once said how you keep the Sabbath, I don't know you that's between you and God, all I have done is shown what the bible says how we are to keep it

When I pointed out that St. Paul says we should let others judge us concerning the observation of the Sabbath, you responded by insisting I was misinterpreting St. Paul, and by also quoting 2 Peter 3 in an attempt to invalidate the scripture in question, and otherewise objecting, when all it says is that we should not let others judge us concerning observation of the Sabbath.

That’s all it says.

It does not say not to keep the Sabbath.

It does not say to keep the Sabbath on Sunday.

It does not say that SDA doctrine is invalid or Roman Catholic doctrine valid.

It simply says we should not allow ourselves to be judged on how we follow the Sabbath. That’s it. And that statement aligns with what Christ our True God taught us, to judge not, lest we not be judged.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't believe that to be true. God said He provided the Law only for Israel--not for all the nations. Israel was, at the time, God's only chosen People.

The Sabbath started at Creation thus saith the Lord Exo 20:11, please point out where God made Jew at Creation.

The Sabbath observance was part of the Law--not to be confused with God's Sabbath in Creation. You are confusing the 2

In the Ten Commandments, in the law God said the Sabbath started at Creation. Why He said "Remember" you don't remember something if never happened. He pointed in the law back to Creation when it started. Not a different Sabbath

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Israel's Sabbath Law was designed to commemorate God's Sabbath in Creation,

Israel represents God's people. If we are not grafted into God's Israel we are not part of the Promise. Why the New Covenant is still with Israel, still has God's law Heb 8:10 and we are grafted in through faith Gal 3:26-29, Rom 9:6-9 Ro, 2:28-29

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

and even more so to reflect the fact Israel required it to show their continuing need for final redemption.

We need this too

God had no such need in Creation.

Its a sign of God's sanctification Eze 20:12 and without it we are nothing Isa 66:17


Was Paul promoting Judaism when the Gentiles begged for more preaching on the Sabbath.

Acts 13:42 [n]So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Did he correct them and say we don't do that, that's Judaism,. Of course not, Paul taught to follow in the footsteps of Christ keeping the Sabbath the same way as Jesus did. Luke 4:16


Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
Acts 18:4 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

God's people keep God's commandments Rev 14:12, the Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11

 

[The Liturgist]

Yet the inspired Word has such warning I believe we should take serious over believing God was against man at Creation which is such a sad doctrine.

All Colossians 2:16 says is to not permit others to judge us on how we keep the Sabbath.

I have said nothing about believing God was against humanity at Creation, which is an idea I find as horrific as you. I do not believe God was against humanity at creation, not for one second.

And Colossians 2:16 doesn’t say anything about that. It merely says not to let other people judge us on how we keep the Sabbath.

 

[The Liturgist]

not finger written by God

Jesus Christ is God. And all books of Scripture are equally inspired and were inspired in the same way.

In fact, since the stone tablets no longer exist, having been turned to dust within the Ark (which itself does exist - it is in the possession of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, stored in a special reinforced concrete chapel due to the thermal damage it caused to the last church in which it was housed, although it is also commonly misunderstood, since the object, while real, is recorded in Scripture primarily as a typological prophecy of the Theotokos and the Incarnation) our only record of what was said on them comes in the form of inspired Scripture.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If that's the case than Col 2:16 can't mean the weekly Sabbath that started at Creation Exo 20:11 Exo 20:8-11 because it's not.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

14 Blotting out the handwriting - not what was finger written by GOD Exo 31:18

of ordinances not the commandments of God Exo 20:6

that was against us, which was contrary to us,, not what was blessed and is holy and sanctified by God Exo 20:8-11 Gen 2:11

and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; so not any one of the Ten Commandments as JESUS said the Sabbath would be kept until His Second Coming long after the Cross Mat 24:20 and for eternity Isa 66:23

Paul never countermanded one of God's commandments so Col 2:16 is not about the weekly Sabbath finger written by God, but about the annual feasts days that had to do with food and drink offerings that some were annual sabbath(s) that was handwritten by Moses placed outside the ark of the covenant as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 the whole context of this passage that everyone cuts off for some strange reason. Not even what Paul or the apostles believed as they faithfully kept every Sabbath in the same manner as Christ. If we abide in Christ John 15:5-10 we follow His example 1 John 2:6

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Bible does present the Ten Commandments as the covenant itself. In Exodus 34:28, it is written:

"So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."​

​

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV)​

This clearly states that the Ten Commandments are the covenant. When we look at Jeremiah 31:31-33, we see God speaking of a new covenant, but notice what He says:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.​

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."​

This passage does not say the law itself would change. Instead, it tells us that instead of being written on stone, it would be written in our hearts and minds. That means the law remains the same, but its place changes, from external tablets to internal conviction. This is why we see in the Gospels of John, Matthew, Luke and Mark, Jesus teaching the commandments and magnifying them.

Now, let's connect this with the Ark of the Covenant. In Deuteronomy 10:1-5, God commanded Moses to place the two tablets of the Ten Commandments inside the Ark:

​

"At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Hew for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make yourself an ark of wood... Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, just as the Lord commanded me.’"​

This shows the special place of the Ten Commandments, inside the Ark, symbolizing their central role in the covenant. But what about the rest of the law? In Deuteronomy 31:24-26, Moses wrote the book of the law and placed it beside the Ark:

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: ‘Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.’”​

This distinction is important. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the Ark, showing their eternal, unchanging nature as the foundation of the covenant. The rest of the law was placed beside the Ark, acting as a witness.

Now, when Jeremiah speaks of the law being written in our hearts, he is speaking of the same law—the Ten Commandments. The "new" part of the covenant is not that the law changes but that God Himself ensures it is within us, guiding us from within rather than being an external set of rules. This aligns perfectly with how Jesus upheld and fulfilled the law, always pointing back to love for God and neighbor as the foundation of obedience (Matthew 22:36-40).

So, the New Covenant is not about replacing the Ten Commandments but about making them part of who we are, just as they were placed inside the Ark.

Blessings

The 10 commandments were not the only laws of the Old Covenant. Initially the covenant that was given to the Israelites at Mt Sinai included everything God had commanded between Exodus 20 and Exodus 23.

“Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, “All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!” Moses wrote down all the words of the Lord. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the Lord. Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, “All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭24‬:‭3‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The covenant consisted of ALL that the Lord had spoken, not just the 10 commandments He gave in Exodus 20.