Heaven Or Hell

[CoreyD]

It says in John 5:22-30 that the good are saved & the evil unsaved. It would seem that those saved by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10) are unaffected by what scripture says is the 2nd death ( Revelation 20:6). The rest are judged by their works & those not found in the book of life are condemned ( Revelation 20:11-15); some were found & others not. What else could this mean unless we want to play head games about it? God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy ( Romans 9:14-18).

The prophet Micah said God showed us what is good ( Micah 6:8) to be just & merciful. Since we are not, we know God is.

I'd rather not play head games.
It's already as hard as it is.

 

[RileyG]

I'd rather not play head games.
It's already as hard as it is.

God bless you.

 

[fhansen]

If one uses death to describe separation from God, it is figurative use of the word dead, or death.

I see. Yes, dead, sick, lost, asleep, are all figurative or metaphorical terms for the state of fallen man, but terms that point to a spiritual truth or reality.

What the Bible tells us about heaven, is not a description.

The bible doesn't tell us great deal about heaven, and what you have offered is not spritually discerned but simply some biblical concepts, as are the streets of gold which I never hear my church teach about BTW. The truth about heaven is far beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend. It's a matter fo grace-and God grants that-insights- at times to people in this life for His own purposes, but overall, no, we do know much at all about what heaven will be like. As I said before God is what makes heaven heavenly-and we cannot know or see Him apart from grace.

 

[fhansen]

The prophet Micah said God showed us what is good ( Micah 6:8) to be just & merciful. Since we are not, we know God is.

Since He is, we must be also. 1 Pet1:16, Matt 5:48

 

[Clare73]

The problems I have with your interpretations are that you turn it into a riddle when it does not need to be.

Nevertheless, God says he gives prophecy in dark sayings, riddles (Nu 11:6-8).

I do not take my doctrine from prophetic riddles.

Then you use excuses like "Prophetic Riddle" to excuse the pitfalls in your interpretation.
NOTE: We have spoken before about your riddles.
A quote from me about the last time we spoke about this stuff
"This is really sounding like you are using "NT Teaching", "Apostolic Teaching", "Dark Sayings" and "Prophetic riddles" to justify your wrong interpretation. Try to answer questions using scripture to back you up instead of using these words to justify your view. The bible should be able to explain itself with other scripture, but so far all I have seen from you is personal interpretation of dark sayings and some of it is in conflict with itself or you are adding to it"

So, when talking to me, please do not try to make yourself sound extra spiritual by using such wording when answering. Use the bible to back you up instead of slogans.
1 Thes 4:16
1 Thes 4:16 says that the dead in Christ will be raised first. This is the martyrs. They are raised and then they reign for 1000 years.

Where in the NT are the "dead in Christ" only the martyrs?
In the NT, the dead in Christ are all the deceased believers.

In context of the teaching (1 Th 4:13-15) of Christ (Lk 10:16), the issue here is the deceased saints missing the rapture.
The teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) is that the deceased saints will not miss the rapture (1 Th 4:15), for the dead in Christ (deceased saints) will be raised first, and then caught up together (with the living saints at that time) to meet the Lord in the air at his second coming (1 Th 4:16-17) at the end of time.

 

[CoreyD]

I see. Yes, dead, sick, lost, asleep, are all figurative or metaphorical terms for the state of fallen man, but terms that point to a spiritual truth or reality.

The bible doesn't tell us great deal about heaven, and what you have offered is not spritually discerned but simply some biblical concepts, as are the streets of gold which I never hear my church teach about BTW. The truth about heaven is far beyond the ability of the human mind to comprehend. It's a matter fo grace-and God grants that-insights- at times to people in this life for His own purposes, but overall, no, we do know much at all about what heaven will be like. As I said before God is what makes heaven heavenly-and we cannot know or see Him apart from grace.

That's okay.
You don't need to know, since it's not God's purpose, or will for you.

 

[CoreyD]

If you’re referring to the resurrection at the end of time, then yes. Those who died aren’t unconscious per scripture cited and what the early Church taught.

You do not consider Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 as scripture, nor Psalm 146:4, then?

 

[fhansen]

That's okay.
You don't need to know, since it's not God's purpose, or will for you.

How do you know that I don't know? I mean, it's not my biz to know or judge such things with certainty but nothing you've said here leads me to think you necessarily have anything more than personal human opinion.

 

[CoreyD]

How do you know that I don't know? I mean, it's not my biz to know or judge such things with certainty but nothing you've said here leads me to think you necessarily have anything more than personal human opinion.

No one here has answered my questions, nor considered the scriptures I posted.
When Jesus questioned the Pharisees, they kept silent. The Bible tells us why.
A discussion that takes the course where persons do not answer questions that are posed, and are answered Biblically, is not a discussion.
It is just a case of persons posting their personal views... as you said, opinions on scripture.
I'm not the one doing that.

 

[Freth]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

I wrote a CF blog post on February 2022 called The State of the Dead, which answers the question of where we go when we die.

1. Was King David a good man?

Paul: Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave their testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

2. When King David died, did he go to heaven? Where is King David now?

Daniel: Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

David is asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection.

 

[fhansen]

I'm not the one doing that.

Everyone thinks they're not doing that, no matter how much they may disagree with the next guy who's not doing that. And so far I've answered your questions as far as I know.

 

[1Tonne]

Where in the NT are the "dead in Christ" only the martyrs?

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-5

These dead martyrs come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years. No other believer is raised as it says.

The teaching of Christ (Lk 10:16) is that the deceased saints will not miss the rapture (1 Th 4:15),

Here are the teachings of Christ (Lk 10:16). Repeatedly He refers to the last day as the time when the dead believers will be raised (This is not the martyrs):
-John 6:39-40, 44, 54 – Jesus says He will raise believers on the last day.
-John 11:24 – Martha expects the resurrection to happen on the last day.
-John 12:48 – Jesus says judgment happens on the last day.
Please explain these verses.

for the dead in Christ (deceased saints) will be raised first,

As in Revelation 20:4-5

and then caught up together (with the living saints at that time) to meet the Lord in the air at his second coming (1 Th 4:16-17) at the end of time.

Then "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep."
So, Christ raises the martyrs and will bring them with Him, then they reign for 1000 years. Lastly, we who are alive at the very end, the last day, will be raised to meet with the Lord in the air. But we will not precede the martyrs. They come first.
So, Christ returns with the martyrs and then at the end, Christ ascends into the air, and we meet with Him there. Then there is the GWT judgement.

NOTE: Also, please do not use the wording "the teachings of Christ" as you seem to be unaware of what he taught, and you are using that wording to show that you have authority under Christ to teach what you do. But your teachings are clearly incorrect.

 

[RileyG]

You do not consider Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10 as scripture, nor Psalm 146:4, then?

That’s the OT. Jewish belief in the afterlife was gradual and evolved over time. Of course I’m aware of those verses.

 

[CoreyD]

Everyone thinks they're not doing that, no matter how much they may disagree with the next guy who's not doing that. And so far I've answered your questions as far as I know.

Then perhaps like most people, you must believe there are no true disciples of Christ?
The true disciples of Christ today are no different to the true disciples in the first century, who said this:
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception. 1 John 4:6

When Jesus said the words at Matthew 28:20, he was telling the truth.
Many people believe that because Jesus is not here on earth, it's "every man for himself"... in other words, we are all in the same boat searching, and coming up with our own interpretations/

However, that is not the case, both from scripture, and physical evidence.
Jesus said that his disciples will prove to be John 15:8; John 8:31, 32, and all will know. John 13:35

Jesus' disciples are clearly recognized, and they must be, because people's lives depend on identifying them, and listening to them.
It was the same in the first century. We only have to read the book of Acts to see this.

In this thread, in my second post, I said...

We make mistakes in our understanding of the scriptures... but are we willing to adjust our view? That is the important question.
Let's try to adjust our understanding, to fit the scripture.

That is not normal.
Even when shown wrong,, do persons say, "Ok. Perhaps I can use a little help or guidance."? No. The normal thing to do is act like they know, and "the holy spirit will speak to them". "I'm good." They tell themselves.
Do the scriptures say it works that way?

That’s the OT. Jewish belief in the afterlife was gradual and evolved over time. Of course I’m aware of those verses.

The OT is not relevant today? Ouch.
This is the text Jesus and his followers used.
Jesus actually quoted from these scriptures... including Psalm 37:11.
Which has more authority to you, Riley... Jesus, or the church leaders?

 

[CoreyD]

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-5

These dead martyrs come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years. No other believer is raised as it says.

Here are the teachings of Christ (Lk 10:16). Repeatedly He refers to the last day as the time when the dead believers will be raised (This is not the martyrs):
-John 6:39-40, 44, 54 – Jesus says He will raise believers on the last day.
-John 11:24 – Martha expects the resurrection to happen on the last day.
-John 12:48 – Jesus says judgment happens on the last day.
Please explain these verses.

As in Revelation 20:4-5

Then "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep."
So, Christ raises the martyrs and will bring them with Him, then they reign for 1000 years. Lastly, we who are alive at the very end, the last day, will be raised to meet with the Lord in the air. But we will not precede the martyrs. They come first.
So, Christ returns with the martyrs and then at the end, Christ ascends into the air, and we meet with Him there. Then there is the GWT judgement.

NOTE: Also, please do not use the wording "the teachings of Christ" as you seem to be unaware of what he taught, and you are using that wording to show that you have authority under Christ to teach what you do. But your teachings are clearly incorrect.

I wanted to give this post a "winner" rating; Had it not been for the second last paragraph not being entirely correct.
However, you aren't too far off. Carry on.

 

[Clare73]

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-5

Prophecy is given in riddles, not clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation
I do not take my doctrine from riddles, I take it from the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

These dead martyrs come back with Christ and reign for 1000 years. No other believer is raised as it says.
Here are the teachings of Christ (Lk 10:16). Repeatedly He refers to the last day as the time when the dead believers will be raised (This is not the martyrs):
-John 6:39-40, 44, 54 – Jesus says He will raise believers on the last day.
-John 11:24 – Martha expects the resurrection to happen on the last day.
-John 12:48 – Jesus says judgment happens on the last day.
Please explain these verses.

The" last day" refers to the end of time, wherein will occur the second coming, the resurrection, the rapture (1 Th 4:16-17) and the judgment. In NT teaching

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39),
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16),
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41),
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33).

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, all occur in the last day.

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = rapture = second coming = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

All else is personal interpretation of "prophetic riddles not spoken clearly" (Nu 12:8), subject to more than one interpretation, and in disagreement with the authoritative NT apostolic teaching above.

As in Revelation 20:4-5

Then "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep."
So, Christ raises the martyrs and will bring them with Him, then they reign for 1000 years. Lastly, we who are alive at the very end, the last day, will be raised to meet with the Lord in the air. But we will not precede the martyrs. They come first.
So, Christ returns with the martyrs and then at the end, Christ ascends into the air, and we meet with Him there. Then there is the GWT judgement.

This is your personal interpretation of prophetic riddle (Nu 12:6-8), and it is not in agreement with the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) above.

NOTE: Also, please do not use the wording "the teachings of Christ"

Are you unaware of Lk 10:16?

The teachings of the apostles are the teachings of Christ (Lk 10:16).
Why do you object to that fact?

So please Biblically demonstrate my error here.

Your issue is with Jesus, he said it (Lk 10:16), not me. My job is to believe it.
You place your interpretation of prophetic riddle (Nu 12:6-8) above the teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16).

as you seem to be unaware of what he taught, and you are using that wording to show that you have authority under Christ to teach what you do. But your teachings are clearly incorrect.

Only according to your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles which are not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and are subject to more than one interpretation.

According to NT didactics/teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16), they are correct.

 

[RileyG]

Then perhaps like most people, you must believe there are no true disciples of Christ?
The true disciples of Christ today are no different to the true disciples in the first century, who said this:
We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. That is how we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deception. 1 John 4:6

When Jesus said the words at Matthew 28:20, he was telling the truth.
Many people believe that because Jesus is not here on earth, it's "every man for himself"... in other words, we are all in the same boat searching, and coming up with our own interpretations/

However, that is not the case, both from scripture, and physical evidence.
Jesus said that his disciples will prove to be John 15:8; John 8:31, 32, and all will know. John 13:35

Jesus' disciples are clearly recognized, and they must be, because people's lives depend on identifying them, and listening to them.
It was the same in the first century. We only have to read the book of Acts to see this.

In this thread, in my second post, I said...


That is not normal.
Even when shown wrong,, do persons say, "Ok. Perhaps I can use a little help or guidance."? No. The normal thing to do is act like they know, and "the holy spirit will speak to them". "I'm good." They tell themselves.
Do the scriptures say it works that way?


The OT is not relevant today? Ouch.
This is the text Jesus and his followers used.
Jesus actually quoted from these scriptures... including Psalm 37:11.
Which has more authority to you, Riley... Jesus, or the church leaders?

I never said the OT wasn’t relevant today.

Good grief

Also, Jesus wouldn’t have accepted soul sleep either.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Here is what Jesus taught plainly….

John 11: 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.

14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.

1 Thes 4: 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Jesus is our example. When Jesus died, He rested in His tomb, did not go to heaven, and didn’t live again until He was resurrected.

It’s the second death we need to fear

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”
Rev 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

 

[Clare73]

I never said the OT wasn’t relevant today.

Good grief

Also, Jesus wouldn’t have accepted soul sleep either.

You from around the Gulf Coast area?

 

[RileyG]

You from around the Gulf Coast area?

No. Midwest. Specifically Nebraska.

Why?