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Geocentric Early Church Writer Quotes

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Piers Plowman

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You say the "Reformed Community" would disagree on the idea that Joshua 10 was a local optical phenomenon rather than the Sun actually stopping moving or the Earth stopping spinning. On what basis do you say this? You refer to the "Westminster Confession of Faith" (which, while common among Reformed groups, is not accepted by all), but do not say where in this rather lengthy document any such statement is found. A search for "Josh" (in order to find both Joshua or the abbreviated "Josh."), "sun", and "Gibeon" do not turn up any references to this. So where does the Westminster Confession of Faith say that Joshua 10 was absolutely not a local optical phenomenon?
I don't see the words 'local optical phenomenon' in this lengthy document as well. The spirit of this confession behooves us to, again, let the Bible speak on its own terms.
 
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Strong in Him

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Dunno about you, but I'd be hesitant in walking into a room full of mathematicians and declaring that their line of work is not 'science'. Moreover, a whole host of advanced studies go into architecture.
Yes, when I was at school, maths was counted as a science.
Maths = fractions, decimals, trigonometry and sums - i.e. addition, multiplication etc. Measuring and making something "300 cubits long" is not exactly the same.
Science = how things like reproduction, photosynthesis or chemical reactions, happen. Measuring a piece of cloth for the Temple is not exactly the same.
 
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Apple Sky

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Dunno about you, but I'd be hesitant in walking into a room full of mathematicians and declaring that their line of work is not 'science'. Moreover, a whole host of advanced studies go into architecture.

I agree with you, how did they build the pyramids or any of the ancient cities ?
Cain built the city of Enoch & many more .................. And @Strong in Him says that science isn't in the bible.


And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Genesis 4:17 relates that after arriving in the Land of Nod, Cain's wife had a son with him, Enoch, in whose name he built the first city.
 
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I agree with you, how did they build the pyramids or any of the ancient cities ?
Cain built the city of Enoch & many more .................. And @Strong in Him says that science isn't in the bible.
I said that the Bible is not a science textbook.

The Bible doesn't teach science, astronomy, geology etc.
It doesn't tell us the shape of the earth. It doesn't tell us about the solar system and other planets, or how the stars made up formations like Orion's belt or the plough. Abraham was told to count the grains of sand on the seashore; he wasn't told how those grains of sand were made nor how they got there.
It doesn't tell us HOW God made Adam from dust nor how he made the animals and decided to give some feathers and some fins.
God saw us while we were growing in the womb - but he doesn't explain how the egg joined with the sperm, how it divided, how chromosomes and cells produced black, blonde or brown hair or green eyes. It doesn't mention the human brain, spine or nervous system nor explain how they were made and developed.
It doesn't tell us how chemicals were discovered or how people mixed things together to make other things. It doesn't tell us how to make glass from sand, or paper from wood.

Those things are not the purpose of the Bible. Even if the Bible did "mention" the word science, it would still not be a science textbook.
 
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Apple Sky

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What is Occam's razor in simple terms?

Occam's razor is a principle often attributed to. 14th–century friar William of Ockham that says that if you have two competing ideas to explain the same phenomenon, you should prefer the simpler one.

image_2024-10-21_090817459.png


a simple earth.jpg
 
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Apple Sky

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I said that the Bible is not a science textbook.

The Bible doesn't teach science, astronomy, geology etc.
It doesn't tell us the shape of the earth. It doesn't tell us about the solar system and other planets, or how the stars made up formations like Orion's belt or the plough. Abraham was told to count the grains of sand on the seashore; he wasn't told how those grains of sand were made nor how they got there.
It doesn't tell us HOW God made Adam from dust nor how he made the animals and decided to give some feathers and some fins.
God saw us while we were growing in the womb - but he doesn't explain how the egg joined with the sperm, how it divided, how chromosomes and cells produced black, blonde or brown hair or green eyes. It doesn't mention the human brain, spine or nervous system nor explain how they were made and developed.
It doesn't tell us how chemicals were discovered or how people mixed things together to make other things. It doesn't tell us how to make glass from sand, or paper from wood.

Those things are not the purpose of the Bible. Even if the Bible did "mention" the word science, it would still not be a science textbook.

I agree, the Bible only gives us a vague view, this is why we must research each topic in other books such as;

  • Books of the Apocrypha. 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras (150-100 BC) Tobit (200 BC) Judith (150 BC) Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4 – 16:24) (140-130 BC) Wisdom of Solomon (30 BC) ...
  • Books of the Pseudepigrapha. Epistle of Barnabas. 3 Maccabees. 4 Maccabees. Assumption of Moses (Testament of Moses) Book of Enoch.
 
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Jipsah

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• Chrysostom: And what took place at a later period were few and at intervals; for example, when the sun stood still in it's course, and started back in the opposite direction. And this one may see to have occurred in our case also. For so even in our generation, in the instance of him who surpassed all in ungodliness, I mean Julian, many strange things happened. Thus when the Jews were attempting to raise up again the temple at Jerusalem, fire burst out from the foundations, and utterly hindered them all. (Homilies on Matthew, Homily IV)


• Chrysostom: And again, David saith of The Sun, that “he is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a giant to run his course.” Seest thou how he places before thee the beauty of this star, and its greatness? For even as a bridegroom when he appears from some stately chamber, so the sun sends forth his rays under the East; and adorning the heaven as it were with a saffron-colored veil, and making the clouds like roses, and running unimpeded all the day; He Meets No Obstacle To Interrupt His Course. Beholdest thou, then, his beauty? (Homilies to Antioch, Homily X)


• Chrysostom: For He not only made it, but provided also that when it was made, it should carry on its operations; not permitting it to be all immoveable, nor commanding it to be all in a state of motion. The heaven, for instance, hath remained immoveable, according as the prophet says, “He placed the heaven as a vault, and stretched it out as a tent over the earth.” But, on the other hand,
the sun with the rest of the stars, Runs On His Course through every day. And again, The Earth Is Fixed, but the waters are continually in motion; and not the waters only, but the clouds, and the frequent and successive showers, which return at their proper season. (Homilies to Antioch, Homily XII)


• Chrysostom: [Speaking of the end of the world]: For the heaven shall be disturbed and the earth shall be shaken from its foundations by reason of the fury of the wrath of the Lord of Sabaoth, in the day when His wrath shall come upon us.” And again “windows” he saith “shall be opened from the Heaven, and the foundations of the earth shall be shaken the earth shall be mightily confounded, the earth shall be bent low, it shall be perplexed with great perplexity, the earth shall stagger grievously like the drunkard and the reveller; the earth shall shake as a hut, it shall fall and not be able to rise up again: for iniquity has waxed mighty therein. And God shall set His hand upon the host of the Heaven in the height in that day, and upon the kingdoms of the earth, and He shall gather together the congregation thereof into a prison, and shall shut them up in a stronghold.” And Malachi speaking concordantly with these said” Behold the Lord almighty cometh, and who shall abide the day of His coming or who shall stand when He appeareth? for He cometh like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers soap: and He shall sit refining and purifying as it were silver, and as it were gold.” (Letters to Theodor, Letter I, 12)


• Chrysostom: Consider of how great value is the righteous man. Joshua the son of Nun said, “Let the sun stand still at Gibeon, the moon at the valley of Elom” (Josh. x. 12), and it was so. Let then the whole world come, or rather two or three, or four, or ten, or twenty worlds, and let them say and do this; yet shall they not be able. But the friend of God commanded the creatures of his Friend, or rather he besought his Friend, and the servants yielded, and he below gave command to those above. Seest thou that these things are for service fulfilling their appointed course?

This was greater than the [miracles] of Moses. Why (I ask)? Because it is not a like thing to command the sea and the heavenly [bodies]. For that indeed was also a great thing, yea very great, nevertheless it was not at all equal [to the other]. Why was this? The name of Joshua [JESUS], was a type. For this reason then, and because of the very name, the creation reverenced him. What then! Was no other person called Jesus? [Yes]; but this man was on this account so called in type; for he used to be called Hoshea. Therefore the name was changed: for it was a prediction and a prophecy. He brought in the people into the promised land, as JESUS [does] into heaven; not the Law; since neither did Moses [bring them in], but remained without.
(Homily on the Epistle to the Hebrews, Homily VIII)


• Chrysostom: Therefore it was, that Joshua, the son of Nave, said, “Let the sun stand still in Gibeon, and the moon over against the valley of Ajalon.’ And again the prophet Isaiah made the sun to retrace his steps, under the reign of Hezekiah; and Moses gave orders to the air, and the sea, the earth, and the rocks. Elisha changed the nature of the waters; the Three Children triumphed over the fire. Thou seest how God hath provided for us on either hand; leading us by the beauty of the elements to the knowledge of His divinity; and, by their feebleness, not permitting us to lapse into the worship of them. (Homily to Antioch, Homily X)


• Clement of Rome: The sun and moon, with the companies of the stars, roll on in harmony according to His command, within their prescribed limits, and without any deviation. (First Epistle to the Corinthians, Ch XX).


• Clement of Rome: the Creator, long-suffering, merciful, the sustainer, the benefactor, ordaining love of men, counselling purity, immortal and making immortal, incomparable, dwelling in the souls of the good, that cannot be contained and yet is contained, who has fixed the great world as a centre in space, who has spread out the heavens and solidified the earth (Homily II, Ch XLV)


• Clement of Rome: For it is manifest even to the unbelieving and unskilful, that the course of the sun, which is useful and necessary to the world, and which is assigned by providence, is always kept orderly; but the courses of the moon, in comparison of the course of the sun, seem to the unskilful to be inordinate and unsettled in her waxings and wanings. For the sun moves in fixed and orderly periods: for from him are hours, from him the day when he rises, from him also the night when he sets; from him months and years are reckoned, from him the variations of seasons are produced; while, rising to the higher regions, he tempers the spring; but when he reaches the top of the heaven, he kindles the summer’s heats: again, sinking, he produces the temper of autumn; and when he returns to his lowest circle, he bequeaths to us the rigour of winter’s cold from the icy binding of heaven. (Pseudo-Clementine, Bk VIII, Ch XLV)


• Cyril of Jerusalem: And he, who could not hope to live because of the prophetic sentence, had fifteen years added to his life, and for the sign the sun ran backward in his course Well then, for Ezekias’ sake the sun turned back but for Christ the sun was eclipsed, not retracing his steps, but suffering eclipse, and therefore shewing the difference between them, I mean between Ezekias and Jesus. (Catechetical Lectures, II, 15)


• Cyril of Jerusalem: the earth, which bears the same proportion to the heaven as the center to the whole circumference of a wheel, for the earth is no more than this in comparison with the heaven: consider then that this first heaven which is seen is less than the second, and the second than the third, for so far Scripture has named them…” (Catechetical Lectures, VI, 3)


• Ephraim the Syrian: The sun in his course teaches thee that thou rest from labour. (On Admonition and Repentance)


• Eusebius: The vast expanse of heaven, like an azure veil is interposed between those without, and those who inhabit his royal mansions: while round this expanse the sun and moon, with the rest of the heavenly luminaries (like torch- bearers around the entrance of the imperial palace), perform, in honor of their sovereign, their appointed courses; holding forth, at the word of his command, an ever-burning light to those whose lot is cast in the darker regions without the pale of heaven. (Oration of Constantine, Ch 1).


• Eusebius: to whom he has permitted the contemplation of celestial objects, and revealed the course and changes of the sun and moon, and the periods of the planets and fixed stars. (Oration of Constantine, Ch VI).


• Eusebius: Even so one and the same impression of the solar rays illumines the air at once, gives light to the eyes, warmth to the touch, fertility to the earth, and growth to plants. The same luminary constitutes the course of time,
governs the motions of the stars, performs the circuit of the heavens, imparts beauty to the earth, and displays the power of God to all: and all this he performs by the sole and unaided force of his own nature.(Oration of Constantine, Ch XII)


• Gregory Nanzianzus: But who gave him motion at first? And what is it which ever moves him in his circuit, though in his nature stable and immovable, truly unwearied, and the giver and sustainer of life, and all the rest of the titles which the poets justly sing of him, and never resting in his course or his benefits? How comes he to be the creator of day when above the earth, and of night when below it? or whatever may be the right expression when one contemplates the sun? (Orations, Oration XXVIII, XXX)


• Gregory Nanzianzus: The sun is extolled by David for its beauty, its greatness, its swift course, and its power, splendid as a bridegroom, majestic as a giant; while, from the extent of its circuit, it has such power that it equally sheds its light from one end of heaven to the other, and the heat thereof is in no wise lessened by distance. (Funeral Orations for St. Basil, 66).


• Gregory of Nyssa: “This is the book of the generation of heaven and earth,” saith the Scripture, when all that is seen was finished, and each of the things that are betook itself to its own separate place, when the body of heaven compassed all things round, and those bodies which are heavy and of downward tendency, the earth and the water, holding each other in, took the middle place of the universe; while, as a sort of bond and stability for the things that were made, the Divine power and skill was implanted in the growth of things, guiding all things with the reins of a double operation (for it was by rest and motion that it devised the genesis of the things that were not, and the continuance of the things that are), driving around, about the heavy and changeless element contributed by the creation that does not move, as about some fixed path, the exceedingly rapid motion of the sphere, like a wheel, and preserving the indissolubility of both by their mutual action, as the circling substance by its rapid motion compresses the compact body of the earth round about, while that which is firm and unyielding, by reason of its unchanging fixedness, continually augments the whirling motion of those things which revolve round it, and intensity s is produced in equal measure in each of the natures which thus differ in their operation, in the stationary nature, I mean, and in the mobile revolution; for neither is the earth shifted from its own base, nor does the heaven ever relax in its vehemence, or slacken its motion. (On the Making of Man, 30, 1, 1)


• Gregory of Nyssa: But, boasting as they do that they know these things, let them first tell us about the things of inferior nature; what they think of the body of the heavens, of the machinery which conveys the stars in their eternal courses, or of the sphere in which they move; for, however far speculation may proceed, when it comes to the uncertain and incomprehensible it must stop. For though any one say that another body, like in fashion (to that body of the heavens), fitting to its circular shape, checks its velocity, so that, ever turning in its course, it revolves conformably to that other upon itself, being retained by the force that embraces it from flying off at a tangent, yet how can he assert that these bodies will remain unspent by their constant friction with each other? And how, again, is motion produced in the case of two coeval bodies mutually conformed, when the one remains motionless (for the inner body, one would have thought, being held as in a vice by the motionlessness of that which embraces it, will be quite unable to act); and what is it that maintains the embracing body in its fixedness, so that it remains unshaken and unaffected by the motion of that which fits into it? (Answer to Eunomius’ Second Book)


• Gregory of Nyssa: And how does earth below form the foundation of the whole, and what is it that keeps it firmly in its place? what is it that controls its downward tendency? If any one should interrogate us on these and such-like points, will any of us be found so presumptuous as to promise an explanation of them? No! the only reply that can be given by men of sense is this:–that He Who made all things in wisdom can alone furnish an account of His creation. For ourselves, “through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,” as saith the Apostle. (Answer to Eunomius’ Second Book)
Great theologians, being massive wrong when they venture out of their bailiwick.
Flat earth is rubbish.
 
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Strong in Him

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I agree, the Bible only gives us a vague view, this is why we must research each topic in other books such as;

  • Books of the Apocrypha. 1 Esdras and 2 Esdras (150-100 BC) Tobit (200 BC) Judith (150 BC) Additions to Esther (Vulgate Esther 10:4 – 16:24) (140-130 BC) Wisdom of Solomon (30 BC) ...
  • Books of the Pseudepigrapha. Epistle of Barnabas. 3 Maccabees. 4 Maccabees. Assumption of Moses (Testament of Moses) Book of Enoch.
No! Why would we?
These are all books of faith. Their purpose is NOT to teach science - knowledge - particularly knowledge which they didn't have.

Where does it say, "then God said, ''in 2000 years' time men will invent/discover the microchip, how to split the atom" etc?
Nowhere. That is not the purpose of the Bible - why can't you understand that? If you want to learn biology, zoology, astronomy and the origins of the world read science textbooks.
The point of Genesis 1 is to say that GOD created the world/earth. Yes, I believe the earth is a globe AND that God created it; in spite of what your silly picture says.
 
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Jipsah

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This verse is so true concerning Macroevolution and Heliocentrism :

"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan,
Who Deceives The Whole World; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

- Revelation 12:9
Rubbish.
 
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These are all books of faith. Their purpose is NOT to teach science - knowledge - particularly knowledge which they didn't have.

Yes - With the exception to the rule 'The Book of Enoch'. Enoch who walked with God.

The Book of Enoch teaches one about;

The fallen angels & what each fallen angel taught, the moon, sun & the stars & the heavens.

 
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Yes - With the exception to the rule 'The Book of Enoch'. Enoch who walked with God.
i) We've been through this before and we established that that book was not written by Enoch.
ii) The book of Enoch is not in the Bible.
iii) Enoch - and there was more than one - would only have been able to write about what he knew and he was not a scientist.
 
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Piers Plowman

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i) We've been through this before and we established that that book was not written by Enoch.
ii) The book of Enoch is not in the Bible.
iii) Enoch - and there was more than one - would only have been able to write about what he knew and he was not a scientist.
ii) ...aside from that one reference in Epistle of Jude
 
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ii) ...aside from that one reference in Epistle of Jude
A passing reference does not validate it as Scripture.
Even the Jews didn't include it in their Bible.
 
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Well now, I firmly believe that God can suspend time universally.
So do I, but such an event would surely have been recorded by other ancient civilisations. The fact that it hasn't suggests it was local.
 
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ii) ...aside from that one reference in Epistle of Jude
Who's to say that wasn't from their oral Tradition, just like the earlier reference to the Archangel Michael?
 
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A passing reference does not validate it as Scripture.
Even the Jews didn't include it in their Bible.

As I've said before the Bible is vague. The book of Jasher is not in the Bible but it mentions it.

King James Bible
And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? Joshua 10:13
 
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