• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Book of Enoch?

timewerx

the village i--o--t--
Aug 31, 2012
16,685
6,334
✟369,478.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Rather, they are used as symbols of angels.

That is until you do a bit of research into astronomy about the extrapolated historical positions of celestial bodies spanning millions of years into the past and have read the Book of Enoch.

You'll find many correlations. So many to make a number of conclusions. The rebellion of angels in the heavenly realm did took place and they left huge marks in our galaxy.

When the Bible speaks of the third of the "stars" (fallen angels) exiled to Earth. They were literally stars. Those huge balls of superheated plasma in space. The Earth was our galaxy home. And this galaxy we live in is called Earth.

Those fallen angels (literally stars) literally fell to Earth (Galaxy). The precise word would have been "absorbed" into our galaxy. Ofc, the scribes didn't know what was really going on so they wrote they "fell".

When humanity met these fallen angels, they would interacted with their "avatars".

In the Book of Enoch, Adam was originally, physically like a star. Before the "fall" he dwelt in space as a luminous object just like the stars.

And if Adam was like a star then God would be the same (man created in God's image). And God wasn't alone at the time of man's creation, He was with other beings. Most likely angels. And when God said "Let us create man in OUR IMAGE" then they all looked the same as STARS!

It's really no mistake nor allegory the Bible refers to angels as stars because they really are. Human interactions with angels are with avatars. The human body is an avatar. Enoch have placed the fallen angels living in the same "prison" occupied by stars. It wasn't literally chains that held them from escaping but gravity. Very strong gravity from a nearby black hole.
 
Upvote 0

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2017
3,869
2,898
Arizona
✟600,595.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Here's a site talking about how Azazel could be The Beast that rises up out of the bottomless pit in Revelation :

 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,429
8,127
50
The Wild West
✟751,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Rather, they are used as symbols of angels.

This is correct. They are not literally angels, but rather beautiful celestial objects God has created which provide our planet, and other planets He might wish us to inhabit in the future, with life-sustaining energy. This is accomplished through nuclear fusion, the remarkable process by which hydrogen atoms are combined to form helium, and so on, making progressively heavier elements until eventually a star winds up with iron in the core, which it can’t fuse, and at that point it can explode, and indeed, form a spectacular supernova followed by a collapse into a black hole if the star is large enough. This is a particularly beautiful part of God’s creation.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,429
8,127
50
The Wild West
✟751,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Pick One:

Apostolic Oriental Orthodox / Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Biblical Canon Scripture Book Of Enoch From Ancient Times.

Or

Heretical, Heterodox, Schismatic Made Up Church with women and unrepentant homosexual bishops that is "Hilariously False" created by a Murderer King Henry VIII who had two of his wives beheaded.



Choose wisely.

Well, the interesting fact is that the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church follows precisely the same doctrine as the other Oriental Orthodox churches, so the Book of Enoch does not have the effect of altering its belief system in a notable way.

Also, Anglicanism is a beautiful form of Christianity, and has for many centuries had the closest relationship to both the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches of any Christian denomination, which has extended to using portions of Orthodox liturgies. The peculiar circumstances of its founding by Henry VIII put me off to it, wrongly, because I failed to realize that historically, the British church had been at least an autonomous church only loosely supervised by Rome, like how the Finnish Orthodox Church is an autonomous Orthodox Church loosely supervised by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, or it could have been an autocephalous church, fully self-governing, like the Orthodox Church in America or the Coptic Orthodox Church. By the way, historically the Ethiopian Orthodox Church was an autonomous church supervised by the Coptic Orthodox Church; it was granted autocephaly only in the 20th century at the request of Emperor St. Haile Selassie, who was later killed by the Derg Communist regime.

My friend @Jipsah is an extremely pious Christian, as are my other Anglican friends, and furthermore I do know of some Anglicans who agree with my view that Enoch should be included as deuterocanonical material because it was quoted by St. Jude the Apostle in his epistle. I feel the same way about the Book of Jubilees.

However, I feel that Enoch must be read mainly using Alexandrian exegesis rather than the Antiochene literal-historical method, as this approach is notoriously problematic when it comes to texts of a highly prophetic or apocalyptic nature, such as the Apocalypse of St. John, also known as Revelation. One should use both techniques as a general principle, but books like Enoch which contradict established doctrines of the Oriental Orthodox church should obviously be read using the Alexandrian technique, which is obviously what the Ethiopians are doing with the book, since they were historically part of the Alexandrian Church, until the 20th century, and their monks and bishops received training on Alexandrian exegesis when Coptic monks and bishops visited them, and when they made pilgrimages to the Coptic monasteries such as that of St. Anthony the Great, and to the Cathedral of St. Mark in Alexandria and the beautiful Coptic churches in Old Cairo, such as the famous Hanging Church, which is suspended in the air like the Hanging Gardens of Bablyon.

Thus, when reading 1 Enoch, it is imperative to read it as Christological prophecy, using typological and metaphorical hermeneutics, as per the traditions of Alexandrian exegesis, which was refined in the legendary Catechitcal School of that City, and Alexandrian exegesis further requires, if done properly, that the book be interpreted in a manner that is consistent with all other scriptural books, and in the case of a highly symbolic and prophetic book like 1 Enoch, that means interpreting it in a manner that does not contradict the other books. Its much like Psalm 137 v. 9, which alienates a great many people who read it using the Antiochene literal-historical method that most Protestants default to, when if we read that same verse using the Alexandrian technique, the meaning shifts from the abhorrent idea of killing Babylonian children, which is obviously not something that Scripture endorses, since it contradicts the Ten Commandments and many other things, to struggling against the sins which result the passions induced by worldliness, since in Scripture Bablyon is consistently used as a symbol for the corruption of this world, and Jerusalem is used as a symbol of the holiness of the Kingdom of God.

Thus, my friend @Jipsah is entirely correct to point out the severe problems that arise when 1 Enoch is interpreted literally. He and I might disagree on other aspects of it - I believe it has value as Christological prophecy, in part because the Holy Apostle St. Jude appears to use it in that manner, but I agree with him that its concepts regarding angels and demons and their specific nature should not be taken literally, since they contradict both with our observations of the natural world and also with the historic doctrine of the Early Church and the traditional churches, including the Oriental Orthodox Communion of which the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is a part.
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Jipsah
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
4,979
1,008
America
Visit site
✟321,943.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes, the Book of Enoch has passages like some in the new testament, that really seem to have been using them as there is close correspondence. And that book is recognized in the new testament. It really should not then be dismissed. Yet it is possible that passages had been added onto it since the time it was already regarded as authoritative, so being wary to watch for that and still refer to what we have in the Bible to weigh things would be important with that, but we may be taught more from the Book of Enoch of things we have been missing, that are of value for us.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,429
8,127
50
The Wild West
✟751,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The Lord Jesus Christ Said The Book of Enoch Is Scripture :


Interesting. Normally I don’t click on YouTube videos, and I would have preferred it had you simply summarized his argument for us and then linked us to the video, but since you didn’t, I will:

Basically, from this pericope:

23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to [a]Jesus and questioned Him,24 saying, “Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up [b]children for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us; and the first married and died, and having no [c]children, he left his wife to his brother. 26 It was the same also with the second brother, and the third, down to the seventh.27 Last of all, the woman died. 28 In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her in marriage.”

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, since you do not [d]understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

It is asserted that our Lord, in citing an ignorance of the scriptures, was referring not only to Exodus but to 1 Enoch, where it is asserted that angels are not given in marriage.

This is interesting, but not as compelling as St. Jude actually quoting 1 Enoch in his epistle (which caused some people to want to exclude Jude from the canon, such as Martin Luther, and indeed Jude was one of five books, along with Revelation, 2 John, 3 John and 2 Peter, to be excluded from the original edition of the Syriac Peshitta). However, since St. Athanasius regards Jude as canon, so do I, and given the great extent to which st. Athanasius is venerated by the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Christians, it is not a surprise they would include 1 Enoch, even though doctrinally they match the other Oriental Orthodox churches.
 
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
2,260
1,442
Midwest
✟227,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Lord Jesus Christ Said The Book of Enoch Is Scripture :


Well, in response to a video, let's look at another video (a conveniently short one):

But some people don't like to watch videos--even one that gets its points across in just one minute like the above--so I'll explain its points.

So the claim your video makes is that Matthew 22:30 is a reference to 1 Enoch 15 (especially 1 Enoch 15:7), and since Jesus mentions scripture in Matthew 22:29, this is saying Enoch is scripture. There are some problems with this argument.

For easier reference, here is the applicable portions of Matthew (22:29-32 NASB):

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, since you do not understand the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. 31 But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Jesus refers to scripture in Matthew 22:29, and then gives scripture in Matthew 22:32 from Exodus. There is not any need in the immediate context to view the intervening Matthew 22:30 as scripture. Especially when one considers that it is not prefaced by any of the usual prefaces Jesus uses when quoting scripture... such as what we see in Matthew 22:31, where Jesus prefaces it with "have you not read what was spoken to you by God".

We run into an additional problem, which is that Jesus's comment is not actually quote from Enoch. To avoid someone accusing me of using some biased translation, here is the translation offered by your own video:

"And you were spiritual, Holy, living an eternal life, but you became unclean upon the women, and begot children through the blood of flesh, and lusted after the blood of men ,and produced flesh and blood, as they do, who die and are destroyed. And for this reason I give men wives; so that they might sow seed in them, and so that children might be born by them, and that deeds might be done on the Earth. But you, formerly, were spiritual, living an eternal, immortal life, for all the generations of the world. For this reason I did not arrange wives for you; because the dwelling of the spiritual ones is in Heaven."
(1 Enoch 15:4-7)

Your video highlights this final sentence in particular, hence why I bolded it. But what Matthew 22:30 says, even in the translation offered by the video is:

"Jesus replied, "Your mistake is that you don't know the scriptures, and you don't know the power of God. For when the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage. In this respect they will be like the angels in heaven."

It is fairly obvious that Jesus's statement, even allowing for translation differences, is not a quote of anything from that section of Enoch. At most one could say that they express similar ideas.

As for the mention of Jude quoting from Enoch that is mentioned towards the end of your video, well, here's another short video (same person as the other video I posted) responding to that idea:

Basically, he points out that just because a biblical text quotes a text, it doesn't mean it's inherently scripture, pointing to other instances of quotations from texts clearly not scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Paul4JC

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing
Apr 5, 2020
1,801
1,460
California
✟212,119.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Basically, all who see the book of 1 Enoch as credible and useful also hold the view that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are fallen angels. Those who believe that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are Sethites (humans) will also say that the book of 1 Enoch is a false writing and should be avoided.
 
Upvote 0

JEBofChristTheLord

to the Lord
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2005
764
258
57
Topeka, Kansas, USA
Visit site
✟158,673.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Basically, all who see the book of 1 Enoch as credible and useful also hold the view that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are fallen angels. Those who believe that the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are Sethites (humans) will also say that the book of 1 Enoch is a false writing and should be avoided.
I've heard a few rationalizations about other meanings of "sons of God", but yep, I think that's the lot in general. It revolves around "sons of God", "bnai-Elohim". Many cannot tolerate this, but "Elohim" is oft correctly translatable to "God", "gods", and "angels". When YHWH came to Abraham in person (Genesis 18), He came as three men, and two of them were later called "messengers", a.k.a., "angels" (Genesis 19:1).
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Paul4JC
Upvote 0

Paul4JC

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing
Apr 5, 2020
1,801
1,460
California
✟212,119.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Yekcidmij

Presbyterian, Polymath
Feb 18, 2002
10,469
1,453
East Coast
✟261,917.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Interesting. Normally I don’t click on YouTube videos, and I would have preferred it had you simply summarized his argument for us and then linked us to the video, but since you didn’t, I will:

Basically, from this pericope:



It is asserted that our Lord, in citing an ignorance of the scriptures, was referring not only to Exodus but to 1 Enoch, where it is asserted that angels are not given in marriage.

There's no reason to think Jesus would be quoting from 1 Enoch as authoritative when his Sadducee opponents would not have accepted it as authoritative.

Jesus' argument about the resurrection in that passage is based on the Torah (Exodus 3:6), not on 1 Enoch. The Pharisees believed that the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead could be derived from the Torah (eg, m. Sanh. 10.1), where the Sadducees did not think so. Jesus' argument deriving the resurrection from the Torah is strikingly similar to other Rabbinical arguments (b. Sanh 92a, b. Sanh 90b, b. Sanh 91b). The Sadducee's ignorance of the scriptures was their belief that the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead wasn't found in the Torah; Jesus proceeds to show them otherwise. There is no need to read 1 Enoch into that passage.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Jipsah
Upvote 0

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2017
3,869
2,898
Arizona
✟600,595.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There's no reason to think Jesus would be quoting from 1 Enoch as authoritative when his Sadducee opponents would not have accepted it as authoritative.

Well, they purposely changed the verses about The Messiah in Their Old Testament Text and purposely ignored and rejected the prophesies about Jesus so why would we be surprised by or expect them to except 1 Enoch as Holy Spripture ?

As shown by Justin Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho - Chapters 71-73
(100-165 A.D.)



71.1 "But I am far from putting reliance in your teachers, who refuse to admit that the interpretation made by the seventy elders who were with Ptolemy of the Egyptians is a correct one; and they attempt to frame another. 2 And I wish you to observe, that they have all together taken away many Scriptures from the translations effected by those seventy elders who were with Ptolemy, and by which this very man who was crucified is proved to have been set forth expressly as God, and man, and as being crucified, and as dying; but since I am aware that this is denied by all of your nation, I do not address myself to these points, but I proceed to carry on my discussions by means of those passages which are still admitted by you. 3 For you assent to those which I have brought before your attention, except that you contradict the statement, 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive,' and say it ought to be read, 'Behold, the young woman shall conceive.' And I promised to prove that the prophecy referred, not, as you were taught, to Hezekiah, but to this Christ of mine: and now I shall go to the proof." 4 Here Trypho remarked, "We ask you first of all to tell us some of the Scriptures which you allege have been completely cancelled."​
72.1 And I said, "I shall do as you please. From the statements, then, which Ezra made in reference to the law of the Passover, they have taken away the following: [A] 'And Ezra said to the people, "This Passover is our savior and our refuge. And if you have understood, and your heart has taken it in, that we shall humble Him on a standard, and thereafter hope in Him, then this place shall not be forsaken for ever, says the God of hosts. But if you will not believe Him, and will not listen to His declaration, you shall be a laughing-stock to the nations."' 2 And from the sayings of Jeremiah they have cut out the following: [B] 'I was like a lamb that is brought to the slaughter; they devised a device against me, saying, "Come, let us lay on wood on His bread, and let us blot Him out from the land of the living; and His name shall no more be remembered."' 3 And since this passage from the sayings of Jeremiah is still written in some copies [of the Scriptures] in the synagogues of the Jews (for it is only a short time since they were cut out), and since from these words it is demonstrated that the Jews deliberated about the Christ Himself, to crucify and put Him to death, He Himself is both declared to be led as a sheep to the slaughter, as was predicted by Isaiah, and is here represented as a harmless lamb; but being in a difficulty about them, they give themselves over to blasphemy. 4 And again, from the sayings of the same Jeremiah these have been cut out: [C] 'The Lord God remembered His dead people of Israel who lay in the graves; and He descended to preach to them His own salvation.'"​
73.1 "And from the ninety-fifth / ninety-sixth Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: [D] 'From the wood.' For when the passage said, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood,' they have left, 'Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.' 2 Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from [the grave], declaring that there is none like Him among the gods of the nations: for they are idols of demons. 3 But I shall repeat the whole Psalm to you, that you may perceive what has been said. It is thus: 'Sing unto the Lord a new song; sing unto the Lord, all the earth. Sing unto the Lord, and bless His name; show forth His salvation from day to day. Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all people. For the Lord is great, and greatly to be praised: He is to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are demons but the Lord made the heavens. Confession and beauty are in His presence; holiness and magnificence are in His sanctuary. Bring to the Lord, O ye countries of the nations, bring to the Lord glory and honor, bring to the Lord glory in His name. 4 Take sacrifices, and go into His courts; worship the Lord in His holy temple. Let the whole earth be moved before Him tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned. For He hath established the world, which shall not be moved; He shall judge the nations with equity. Let the heavens rejoice, and the earth be glad; let the sea and its fullness shake. Let the fields and all therein be joyful. Let all the trees of the wood be glad before the Lord: for He comes, for He comes to judge the earth. He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth.'" 5 Here Trypho remarked, "Whether [or not] the rulers of the people have erased any portion of the Scriptures, as you affirm, God knows; but it seems incredible." 6 "Assuredly," said I, "it does seem incredible. For it is more horrible than the calf which they made, when satisfied with manna on the earth; or than the sacrifice of children to demons; or than the slaying of the prophets. But," said I, "you appear to me not to have heard the Scriptures which I said they had stolen away. For such as have been quoted are more than enough to prove the points in dispute, besides those which are retained by us, and shall yet be brought forward."​




artworks-C44Kyk27lYtKEFNH-jdRgyg-t500x500.jpg
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jipsah

Blood Drinker
Aug 17, 2005
13,750
4,448
71
Franklin, Tennessee
✟282,494.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Well, they purposely changed the verses about The Messiah in Their Old Testament Text and purposely ignored and rejected the prophesies about Jesus so why would we be surprised by or expect them to except 1 Enoch as Holy Spripture ?
I don't see how anyone can view any writing jammed with so much complete and utter rubbish as "The Book of Heavenly Luminaries in "Enoch" as anything remotely akin to holy writ.
 
Upvote 0

Paul4JC

the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing
Apr 5, 2020
1,801
1,460
California
✟212,119.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2017
3,869
2,898
Arizona
✟600,595.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,429
8,127
50
The Wild West
✟751,216.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate

Dr. Michael S. Heiser on the Book of Enoch in the Early Church​



What you’re ignoring is that the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Christians, who alone receive 1 Enoch in its present form as canonical (other denominations in several cases regard it as corrupted, for reasons pointed out by my dearly beloved Anglican friend @Jipsah, so that insofar as it was quoted in the New Testament, the version we have is distorted, and furthermore the text in use by the Ethiopians if accurately translated is less remarkable and eccentric than the current sensationalized English translations) - do not interpret it literally.

Rather, the Ethiopians regard the book as Christological prophecy, like the rest of the Old Testament, and if we interpret it this way, it becomes much more acceptable.

The problem here is twofold: you are advocating for a literal interpretation of a book which no one interprets literally, and which furthermore in its present form is probably very poorly translated into English, in an overly sensational way, and which is also very possibly corrupted (since the Dead Sea Scrolls are fragmented and the Greek version is lost, we have a problem in terms of evaluating the degree of the corruption), and which the majority of early church Fathers took a pass on in the fourth century due to these issues, while admitting that St. Jude probably did quote it.

Therefore, while I respect persecuted Ethiopian Orthodox and Eritrean Orthodox Christians to the point where I will accept it on the basis of their acceptance of it as being on some level canonical (although my understanding is that they regard it as deuterocanonical - if I recall, it is not read in the church, but is rather present in their Bibles as a supporting text), it would be something else entirely to push for a literal-historical interpretation of the entire work when no one interprets it that manner.

And insofar as it was quoted in the New Testament by St. Jude the Apostle, it was a quotation of a Christological and Eschatological prophecy from 1 Enoch as opposed to a literal-historical reading of the book as being authoritative about past events, and furthermore the quotation excluded those pericopes of 1 Enoch which are highly disputed, and also completely disregards the other Enochic literature, which no one regards as canon.

Lastly I have to ask, why do you display a contemporary Eastern Orthodox icon of the Last Judgement while disagreeing with Eastern Orthodox beliefs on the basis of a literal interpretation of 1 Enoch which the Eastern Orthodox have never subscribed to? I mean, on the one hand, I’m glad you like our iconography, but on the other hand, would you not admit that it is possible that by displaying an Orthodox icon together with a post that radically disagrees with Orthodox doctrine, you might inadvertently cause confusion regarding what we Orthodox Christians believe?

By way of analogy, I wouldn’t display an image of a Roman Catholic icon of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and then express the Eastern Orthodox view, shared by an 18th century Pope who opposed the devotion, that the devotion to the Sacred Heart is somewhat problematic.

Perhaps if you added a text to your signature clarifying that your use of the icon is not intended to indicate you are a Christian of Eastern Orthodox, Byzantine Rite Catholic, or insofar as our Anglican friends are increasingly using Orthodox icons, for example, in the altar at Westminster Abbey, a member of the Anglican Communion, that might perhaps help to avoid any confusion that could possibly result from your use of that icon in your signature.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,393
20,703
Orlando, Florida
✟1,501,807.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
What you’re ignoring is that the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Christians, who alone receive 1 Enoch in its present form as canonical (other denominations in several cases regard it as corrupted, for reasons pointed out by my dearly beloved Anglican friend @Jipsah, so that insofar as it was quoted in the New Testament, the version we have is distorted, and furthermore the text in use by the Ethiopians if accurately translated is less remarkable and eccentric than the current sensationalized English translations) - do not interpret it literally.

Rather, the Ethiopians regard the book as Christological prophecy, like the rest of the Old Testament, and if we interpret it this way, it becomes much more acceptable.

The problem here is twofold: you are advocating for a literal interpretation of a book which no one interprets literally, and which furthermore in its present form is probably very poorly translated into English, in an overly sensational way, and which is also very possibly corrupted (since the Dead Sea Scrolls are fragmented and the Greek version is lost, we have a problem in terms of evaluating the degree of the corruption), and which the majority of early church Fathers took a pass on in the fourth century due to these issues, while admitting that St. Jude probably did quote it.

Therefore, while I respect persecuted Ethiopian Orthodox and Eritrean Orthodox Christians to the point where I will accept it on the basis of their acceptance of it as being on some level canonical (although my understanding is that they regard it as deuterocanonical - if I recall, it is not read in the church, but is rather present in their Bibles as a supporting text), it would be something else entirely to push for a literal-historical interpretation of the entire work when no one interprets it that manner.

And insofar as it was quoted in the New Testament by St. Jude the Apostle, it was a quotation of a Christological and Eschatological prophecy from 1 Enoch as opposed to a literal-historical reading of the book as being authoritative about past events, and furthermore the quotation excluded those pericopes of 1 Enoch which are highly disputed, and also completely disregards the other Enochic literature, which no one regards as canon.

Lastly I have to ask, why do you display a contemporary Eastern Orthodox icon of the Last Judgement while disagreeing with Eastern Orthodox beliefs on the basis of a literal interpretation of 1 Enoch which the Eastern Orthodox have never subscribed to? I mean, on the one hand, I’m glad you like our iconography, but on the other hand, would you not admit that it is possible that by displaying an Orthodox icon together with a post that radically disagrees with Orthodox doctrine, you might inadvertently cause confusion regarding what we Orthodox Christians believe?

By way of analogy, I wouldn’t display an image of a Roman Catholic icon of the Sacred Heart of Jesus and then express the Eastern Orthodox view, shared by an 18th century Pope who opposed the devotion, that the devotion to the Sacred Heart is somewhat problematic.

Perhaps if you added a text to your signature clarifying that your use of the icon is not intended to indicate you are a Christian of Eastern Orthodox, Byzantine Rite Catholic, or insofar as our Anglican friends are increasingly using Orthodox icons, for example, in the altar at Westminster Abbey, a member of the Anglican Communion, that might perhaps help to avoid any confusion that could possibly result from your use of that icon in your signature.

The problem with Heiser's hermeneutic was that he often confused what amounts to religious fan fiction with a kind of grimoire of the supernatural, drawing up a lurid, "manichean" cosmology as a result.
 
Upvote 0