SALVATION

[d taylor]

Posting verses only becomes a game to the one who thinks he can refute Passages by quoting other Passages, or ignoring all the Passages that disagree with their own interpretations.

So, if your interpretation of Faith, Eternal Life, and Salvation does not match what the Scriptures teach that these terms mean, then will you ignore the Scriptural teaching so you can hold onto your own interpretations?

What I posted are the Scriptures that harmonize with all other Scriptures regarding the meaning of "The Faith," and how we must be saved - eternal life.



What did Lord Jesus command as the Great Commission of the Gospel that should be preached to all nations?

Luke 24:47 The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations

Matthew 28:19-20 Go now and make disciples [true believers] of all nations. . . teaching them to obey all things I have commanded you.

Luke 5:32 (WEB) I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

What did God command that we are to do?

Acts 17:30 God commands all people everywhere to repent

What did the Apostle Paul preach everywhere as the Gospel call?

Acts 20:20 [I have] taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 earnestly declaring to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God [conversion] and manifest their repentance by their deeds.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation

What did the Apostle Peter teach as the Gospel Call?

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and be converted [turned], that your sins may be blotted out

1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness [conversion]

WHY is a new convert, a believer, baptized?

Romans 6:1-6 (WEB)
1 What should we conclude then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 And so, we were buried with him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

Romans 6:19-22 … 19 For as you presented your bodily parts as slaves to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become slaves of God, the fruit you bear is in sanctification and the result is Eternal Life.

That is what I would tell them too.

-

​

That is what i thought you have no message to tell a person how to receive Eternal Life salvation.
Just verse posting.

 

[fhansen]

No it doesn't. Your quote says that at the end of our lives God will judge us on the basis of our love. That is not what 1 Corinthians 12:31 says. And there is no verse that supports this doctrine.

Sure there is. It's the whole bible, in fact, from beginning to end, It's what would've made the difference for Adam in his choice. For example, this directive hasn't changed one iota under the new covenant:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8

But more to the point is this one:
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matt 22:36-40

That's why love is the authentic righteousness that is mentioned in Rom 3:21-22:
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

And this is why love is said to fulfill the law in Rom 13:10 and Gal 5:14, the law that Jesus did not come to abolish. And why faith without love is said to make one nothing in 1 Cor 13:2 and why love is the most important of the the virtues in 1 Cor 13:13. And the problem here is a relatively new one as the ancient churches east and west and the ECFs understood this much better than many do today. That love is the height and true measure of justice/righteousness for man.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:

What did Lord Jesus command as the Great Commission of the Gospel that should be preached to all nations?

Luke 24:47 The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all the nations

Matthew 28:19-20 Go now and make disciples [true believers] of all nations. . . teaching them to obey all things I have commanded you.

Luke 5:32 (WEB) I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

What did God command that we are to do?

Acts 17:30 God commands all people everywhere to repent

What did the Apostle Paul preach everywhere as the Gospel call?

Acts 20:20 [I have] taught you publicly and from house to house, 21 earnestly declaring to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God [conversion] in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 First to in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God [conversion] and manifest their repentance by their deeds.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (WEB) 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance to salvation

What did the Apostle Peter teach as the Gospel Call?

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and be converted [turned], that your sins may be blotted out

1 Peter 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness [conversion]

WHY is a new convert, a believer, baptized?

Romans 6:1-6 (WEB)
1 What should we conclude then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 And so, we were buried with him through baptism into death, so that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

Romans 6:19-22 … 19 For as you presented your bodily parts as slaves to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become slaves of God, the fruit you bear is in sanctification and the result is Eternal Life.

That is what I would tell them too.

That is what i thought you have no message to tell a person how to receive Eternal Life salvation.
Just verse posting.​

The "Message" the Scriptures give as the Gospel we are to witness to others is "no message" to you, "just verse quoting." Thanks for letting this board know what you think of God's Word. These messages remain on this board forever - as long as the Christian Message Board exists.

But far worse is that you will have to give an account to God for the public witness you gave against His Gospel Word.

Matthew 12:36 I tell you that every idle word that men speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.

John 12:48 He who rejects me, and doesn’t receive my words, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke will judge him in the last day.

Mark 8:38 For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in his Father’s glory, with the holy angels.

You have chosen your own interpretations over what Lord Jesus plainly stated by himself and through His Apostles. Bad choice.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Once again, no Christian on this board is teaching that we are saved by the works of the Law. That is a strawman argument.

If your faith does not lead you to be his disciple, following him, your faith is dead.

No, that is not legalism, that is the Gospel. If one's faith does not lead to a righteous life of Good Works, then his faith is dead, and he does not have the Spirit.

The only ones forgiven are those who, after hearing the Gospel, repent and turn from sin to God, following Lord Jesus by faith.

Strawman argument. No one is teaching that we are saved by works.

No one is passing judgment. The Scriptures do that for us.

The only "Christians who have eternal life are described in Romans 6.

You will not take part in the resurrection of Lord Jesus unless you die with Christ to sin, and rise to a new life of righteousness.

The flaw, of course, in your doctrine is that you point to sinlessness as the mark of true believers, yet you make room for your own "sins committed in weakness". The reason is obvious... you are convicted of your own lack of sinlessness and your need for forgiveness. Somehow, you have avoided condemning yourself under your own doctrine, yet you heap condemnation on others who you see as not having the Spirit. Perhaps you can explain how you avoid the broad net you are casting.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No, it says that we have an obligation-

No, it says we are not debtors to the flesh to live according to the flesh

that we are debtors-to God, obliged to overcome the flesh by the Spirit

No, it says we have overcome the flesh by the Spirit

because the flesh doesn’t submit to God’s law.

Yes, this is true. It is impossible for the flesh to submit to God's laws. But you don't believe your flesh and all its sinfufulness is yours but forgiven. But you separate yourself from your own flesh and think you prove yourself worthy of eternal life by resisting your flesh and its evil desires. But on the other hand you say there is only one "you". How can you be fighting against your own flesh if there is no conflict between your flesh and your spirit?

God’s law is good, holy, right, and spiritual according to Rom 7, but it cannot effect holiness is us because even though it reflects God’s will for man it’s still just a set of rules, and that’s the POINT!! That’s why the law is only a curse at the end of the day because it can only reveal what’s wrong with us but cannot correct that situation-cannot make us right!!

Correct. But picking one law, the law of love", and saying we will be judged in the end on our love, means that you think living up to the requirements of the law (the law of love) is the thing that qualifies a person for eternal life.

Only God can do that-and we’re alienated from him in our fallen state. A new righteousness, the real thing, has arrived on the scene, that can make you holy, as you were created to be.

Yes, the "real thing" is a new creature, one that God creates in His image that possesses "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), that is "joined to the Lord" and is "one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17), and that is incorruptible by sin (1 Jn 3:9). But you do not believe that the new man has these qualities and is in adversarial opposition to the flesh. You think new life in Christ only gives us the ability to do good but leaves us vunerable to failure if we do not excercise our wills to prove ourselves worthy (see below).

Your part in this is to say yes, to get on board and unite with God the Trinity through His Son and the reconciliation with God that He brings to the table for us. And that “yes” first of all means to respond to the gift of faith, by accepting and acting upon it.

It is not our responsibility to "unite with God". He unites us with Him when He comes to live in our hearts... We absolutely do live in the Spirit (not in the flesh) if the Spirit of God lives in us (Ro 8:9). And, since we live in the Spirit, we should walk in lock step with the Spirit (Ga 5:25). This is the only way to deny our flesh what it wants and enjoy the fruits of the Spirit (Ga 5:16-26). And furthermore, that means we are not condemned by the law for the sinfulness of the flesh (Ro 8:1; Ga 5:18), because we are not under law, but under grace (Ro 6:14).

Read Rom 8 for carefully, for yourself. It can help shed light on the rest of Romans, and the whole New Testament as well.

Funny.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

While Adam's sin was certainly not the most grievous of sins compared to those uglier sins that followed his first one, his opened the door to all the rest, including Cain slaying Able almost right off the bat. Either way, John was already distinguishing between sin, sin that leads to death versus sin that doesn't. Sin that leads to death is considered to be sin that is so grievous that it opposes love of God and neighbor by its nature and destroys love within us. All sin tends towards that but we must be overcoming those deeds of the flesh as, for example, listed in Galatians 5 and Revelation 21 and 22 that most certainly will exclude you from heaven. We must be on the "journey to perfection" as it's been called, a journey of overcoming sin, no longer being enslaved to it (Rom 6).

If anyone sins, he is a slave of sin.

So this leads to a reasonable question. Does becoming "the righteousness of God in Him" entail strictly a declaration or imputation of that righteousness, the acquittal of sin only , IOW, or are we also now enabled in some manner to overcome sin, to become holy? Does His righteousness become ours? Or if justification before God means only the appearance of holiness in His eyes does it matter at all whether we still wantonly and gravely sin as long as we have faith? Reading the third chapter of 1 John or chapters 5 and 6 of Galatians, I doubt that either John or Paul would have any sympathy for the sinlessness of a "virtual perfect man" while another part of us is sinnng away willfully.

You can't see that God created the new man with "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). Why don't you examine that more closely instead of declaring that what Got created is "virtual" instead of "true" righteousness and holiness?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You have a fixation on a novel theology IMO, similar to mine as a Protestant though with a somewhat different flavor. I just came to be impressed, after many years and to my own surprise, with the original basic teachings of the church, consistent between the the EO, ECFs, and the RCC.

God leads me back to one verse when people challenge me to give up on what He has taught me...

"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them" (2 Ti 3:14).​

As I see it you have to throw out half the verses that apply to eternal life in order to ignore those that require obedience, even though that obedience is only made possible due to the sacrifice of God's Son.

Again, the difference between our views is that you think that our obedience (as flawed and imperfect as it is even for the best of us) is what allows a person to overcome judgement, but I believe Jesus' sacrifice for our failures to obey is what causes us to overcome judgement.

Furthermore, I recognize that deep inside my heart I am with God in the battle between good and evil. I love Him with all my heart, I love the things of God and the people of God. I have His compassion for the lost and I want them to be saved. I detest sin and adore His holiness and righteousness. I have no fear of judgement despite all the depravity of the flesh that I continue to live with. And I am 100% sure that I will be free of the flesh one day. I groan within myself for that day and look forward to that day I know is coming when I see Him as He is.

Why is all this happening inside me? Because He has given me His life, has made me one with Him, and has translated me into the kingdom of His love. As a result, I have what He requires... true righteousness and holiness. Until the day that it will all be fulfilled in total, I will serve Him in the newness of the Spirit.

 

[setst777]

The flaw, of course, in your doctrine is that you point to sinlessness as the mark of true believers, yet you make room for your own "sins committed in weakness".

No Christian will remain totally sinless, but we do remain sanctified; in that, the Christian's desire is never to sin, and will never live in sin; but rather to walk in the light of righteousness as a disciple of Lord Jesus.

1 John 2:1-4 [addressing and warning born-again Christians] My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but for the whole world. 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him must also walk just like he walked.

John 8:12 (WEB) He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.

If we are followers of Lord Jesus in this way, then the blood of Christ cleanses us from any sins we do commit in weakness.

1 John 1:5-7 (WEB) 5 This is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

That is the Gospel.

The reason is obvious... you are convicted of your own lack of sinlessness and your need for forgiveness. Somehow, you have avoided condemning yourself under your own doctrine, yet you heap condemnation on others who you see as not having the Spirit. Perhaps you can explain how you avoid the broad net you are casting.

The true Christian avoids the broad net of destruction by continuing in the faith manifested by being crucified to the flesh, and continuing to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit so we continue to be given Eternal Life by the Spirit.

Galatians 5:16 I say, walk by the Spirit, and you [the Galatian Christians who are indwelt by the Spirit] won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh... 21 I have repeatedly warned you that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.

Galatians 5:24-25 [instruction for Christians] 24 Those who belong to Christ [saved] have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also keep in step with the Spirit.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived. God is not mocked, for what a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap Eternal Life. 9 Let {{{us}}} not be weary in doing good, for {{{we}}} will reap in due season, {{{if we}}} do not give up.

To walk in the Spirit is to walk in the light of righteousness by following Lord Jesus so that we may have Eternal Life.

Romans 6:19-22 … 19 For as you presented your bodily parts as slaves to uncleanness and to all kinds of wickedness, even so now present your members as slaves to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What was the fruit you once bore of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become slaves of God, the fruit you bear is in sanctification and the result is Eternal Life.

John 10:27 My sheep listen my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them [who listen and follow him] Eternal Life.

 

[fhansen]

No, it says we are not debtors to the flesh to live according to the flesh

No, Rom 8:12 says we are debtors-or have an obligation, depending on translation, which means the same. So...to Whom or to what are we debtors, to Whom or to what are we obliged?

No, it says we have overcome the flesh by the Spirit

Not at all. It says we must overcome the flesh by the Spirit.
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live". Rom 8:13

Why?
"Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?"

"When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life." Rom 6:16, 20-22

Yes, this is true. It is impossible for the flesh to submit to God's laws. But you don't believe your flesh and all its sinfufulness is yours but forgiven. But you separate yourself from your own flesh and think you prove yourself worthy of eternal life by resisting your flesh and its evil desires. But on the other hand you say there is only one "you". How can you be fighting against your own flesh if there is no conflict between your flesh and your spirit?

Because there is only one you!! And that's who will meet God at the end to give an account of what they did. And you can be dominated by the flesh or by the Spirit. That's both a gift- and a choice.

Correct. But picking one law, the law of love", and saying we will be judged in the end on our love, means that you think living up to the requirements of the law (the law of love) is the thing that qualifies a person for eternal life.

Being in a state of justice-justified-is what qualifies a person for eternal life, And that justice/righteousness has definition- and the surest definition of it is love.

Yes, the "real thing" is a new creature, one that God creates in His image that possesses "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24), that is "joined to the Lord" and is "one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17), and that is incorruptible by sin (1 Jn 3:9). But you do not believe that the new man has these qualities and is in adversarial opposition to the flesh.

With your viewpoint here you've again succeeded in making right wrong and wrong right. After insisting in vs 7 & 8 that who he does what is right is righteous and he who does what is sinful is of the devil, 1 John 3:9-10 speaks of no "make-believe saint" but says the opposite of what you say:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

You think new life in Christ only gives us the ability to do good but leaves us vunerable to failure if we do not excercise our wills to prove ourselves worthy (see below).

No, the ability to only do what we now can and should do -because He made it possible. To do otherwise is to mock Him and His sacrifice.

It is not our responsibility to "unite with God". He unites us with Him when He comes to live in our hearts...

It's our responsibility, with the aid of grace, to open the door when He knocks and to keep it open by remaining in Him as He instructs us to do in John15;5. He beckons us first to come to Him, to take up His yoke, then to pick up our cross everyday, and follow.

It is not our responsibility to "unite with God". He unites us with Him when He comes to live in our hearts...

He's a gentleman-He won't force His way in. For our highest good He solicits our participation, our increasing responsibility in allowing Him in.

We absolutely do live in the Spirit (not in the flesh) if the Spirit of God lives in us (Ro 8:9).

We reject Him if we aren't living as child of God should.

And, since we live in the Spirit, we should walk in lock step with the Spirit (Ga 5:25). This is the only way to deny our flesh what it wants and enjoy the fruits of the Spirit (Ga 5:16-26).

We should and must walk in lockstep with the Spirit:
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

And furthermore, that means we are not condemned by the law for the sinfulness of the flesh (Ro 8:1; Ga 5:18),

The reason there's no commendation in Christ Jesus is because He gives you the ability to overcome the sin that condemns us to death!!!!
"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

Which then makes so much sense out of:
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

You try to make life in the Spirit some kind total reprieve from the penalty of sin affair while its actually the ability to overcome that sin. And to understand Gal 5:18 one must only distinguish what it meant to obey by the Spirit rathe than by the letter.

"...for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!" 2 Cor 3:9-9

because we are not under law, but under grace (Ro 6:14).

And what's the difference, what's the purpose of grace?
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

Again, this is real righteous-that the law and the prophets only testify about but cannot accomplish in us. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. So the question still appears to remain: Can a believer persistently engage in grave, wanton sin and still expect to receive eternal life?

Funny.

Funny or otherwise, you show that you still need to do it.

 

[fhansen]

God leads me back to one verse when people challenge me to give up on what He has taught me...

"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them" (2 Ti 3:14).

That's good advice. It's also good to never stop asking, seeking, and knocking. The knowledge of God is limitless -and we've never quite fully arrived. When we think we have, we're still far off.

Again, the difference between our views is that you think that our obedience (as flawed and imperfect as it is even for the best of us) is what allows a person to overcome judgement, but I believe Jesus' sacrifice for our failures to obey is what causes us to overcome judgement.

Furthermore, I recognize that deep inside my heart I am with God in the battle between good and evil. I love Him with all my heart, I love the things of God and the people of God. I have His compassion for the lost and I want them to be saved. I detest sin and adore His holiness and righteousness. I have no fear of judgement despite all the depravity of the flesh that I continue to live with. And I am 100% sure that I will be free of the flesh one day. I groan within myself for that day and look forward to that day I know is coming when I see Him as He is.

Why is all this happening inside me? Because He has given me His life, has made me one with Him, and has translated me into the kingdom of His love. As a result, I have what He requires... true righteousness and holiness. Until the day that it will all be fulfilled in total, I will serve Him in the newness of the Spirit.

Either way, our love for God-and neighbor-is born our by the way we live our lives- and how we treat our neighbor. To say we love either while living in sin or harming neighbor is disingenuous. Anything else is just talk. Yes, we will struggle with sin but that only means that we've not yet been perfected in love -and presumably none will be completely thus perfected in this way, in this life. But if you're overcoming sin in your life, then you show that the Spirit is dwelling and working within. In any case the goal is and should be perfection.
"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect", Matt 5:48. That's not an imagined perfection, or one that we just conceive to be true about ourselves.

"Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that He appeared so that He might take away our sins. And in Him is no sin. No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him." 1 John 3:4-6

With grace, the life of the Spirit in us, we must be living life God's way now including overcoming sin to His satisfaction, to the best we can with what we've been given. Your simul peccator et justus model doesn't resolve the issue. However, this matter was properly dealt with centuries ago and post #669, which I believe you didn't wish to read due to length, explains the matter fairly well. A little Christian history never hurts. It's our common history, know it-or like it-or not.

 

[fhansen]

You can't see that God created the new man with "true righteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). Why don't you examine that more closely instead of declaring that what Got created is "virtual" instead of "true" righteousness and holiness?

The new man isn't just some sort of intellectual concept or idea that we decide to adopt about ourselves. It's a gift, to be lived, expressed, now enabled to follow Christ in the way He lived. And that is inconsistent with sin.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

No Christian will remain totally sinless, but we do remain sanctified; in that, the Christian's desire is never to sin, and will never live in sin; but rather to walk in the light of righteousness as a disciple of Lord Jesus.

If we are followers of Lord Jesus in this way, then the blood of Christ cleanses us from any sins we do commit in weakness.

The true Christian avoids the broad net of destruction by continuing in the faith manifested by being crucified to the flesh, and continuing to live, walk, and sow to the Spirit so we continue to be given Eternal Life by the Spirit.

To be clear, all sin is the result of the weakness of the flesh. So, differeentiating between "living in sin" and "committing sins in weakness" is basically the same thing.

But maybe you are trying to distinguish between the frequency of a person's sins? Would you say if a person sins in weakness once every day is living in sin? How about one sin per week? If frequency of sin is the measure, how often is too often?

But maybe you are trying to distinguish between one person's desire to not sin and another person's desire to sin. If so, how can it be argued that a person desires to never sin when it is obvious that their desire to never sin is overcome by their desire to sin in those moments of weakness?

But maybe you are trying to distinguish between one person who fully commits to not sinning and another person who does not. At what point does a person's repeated failures to follow through on his commitment indicate that his commitment is worthless?

My point is this... there is no way for a human being to earn right standing with God through sin-avoidance or through commitment to sin-avoidance. Rightness with God is only through having our sins forgiven. The good thing is Jesus gives His perfect, holy, and righteous life to all that trust fully in Him so that they may serve Him in the newness of the Spirit without regard to the condemnation that otherwise would be theirs due to the sinfulness of their flesh.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Because there is only one you!! And that's who will meet God at the end to give an account of what they did. And you can be dominated by the flesh or by the Spirit. That's both a gift- and a choice.

True, there is only one you. It is not possible to distance yourself from your own flesh. It is your flesh. It's sins and sinfulness is your responsibility. Your flesh belongs to you. You can say that the goal is to not be dominated by the flesh, but that is not the goal. The goal is to avoid the condemnation that is rightly ours because of the sinfulness of our own flesh. Only God can forgive your sins.

With your viewpoint here you've again succeeded in making right wrong and wrong right. After insisting in vs 7 & 8 that who he does what is right is righteous and he who does what is sinful is of the devil, 1 John 3:9-10 speaks of no "make-believe saint" but says the opposite of what you say:
"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister."

You can't see what John is saying because you do not know he is talking about the spiritual creature that is spiritual in nature (noth physical) that God creates in a person when Jesus comes to live in his heart. He is saying that the spiritual being shares God's nature and therefore is impervious to sin. It is impossible for the new creature to sin because he is born from out of God and is His offspring.

Your POV relegates John's words to something totally different. You think he is saying that the creature God created when He gave birth to them can only sin a little, and the thing that limits his sins to only little, infrequent, or short duration sins is the fact that he is the offspring of God. And your POV makes the surrounding verses say similar things... that a person who only sins a little, infrequently, and in short duration is righteous just as Jesus is righteous.

The new man isn't just some sort of intellectual concept or idea that we decide to adopt about ourselves. It's a gift, to be lived, expressed, now enabled to follow Christ in the way He lived. And that is inconsistent with sin.

The new man is a spiritual being, not "just some sort of intellectual concept". Jesus differentiated between the physical life we received from our human parents and the spiritual life that we receive from our heavenly Father when He said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn 3:6). The new man is the one that is "born of the Spirit".

Furthermore, going back to the "there is only one you" concept, the new man is our spiritual new life in Christ. It is not possible to distance ourselves from the new man. It is our spirit. It's true righteousness and holiness is ours. The new man belongs to us. You can say that the goal is is to be dominated by the Spirit, but that is not the goal. The goal is to possess the true righteousness and holiness without which no one will see God.

And finally, though the flesh (which we inherited from Adam and Eve) still exists (and will exist until we die), those of us who are in Christ are under no condemnation for the sins and sinfulness of the flesh because we are in the Spirit (the new man lives in the Spirit and is one with Him), not in the flesh (where we formerly lived before Christ came to live in our hearts). With the Spirit of Christ in our hearts, our flesh continues to be dead in its sinfulness, but we are alive because of His righteousness that we share with His Spirit.

 

[fhansen]

Correct. But picking one law, the law of love", and saying we will be judged in the end on our love, means that you think living up to the requirements of the law (the law of love) is the thing that qualifies a person for eternal life.

When one begins to understand that love is at the heart of the Christian faith, that it's the reason and motivation for why Jesus came and did all that He did, that it's the nature of God that we're to be transformed into, that it would've prevented Adam from his sin because the love God wants for us and that only He can give obeys Him by its nature, then we begin to know its place. We come to understand that love fulfills the law by its nature because it doesn't cheat, doesn't lie, doesn't steal, murder, or commit adultery. Love will fulfill God's law without even needing to be aware of God's law.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

One cannot reduce the definition of "the law" to being "anything God obliges me to do", as if doing the opposite means that we're no longer under the law, or in any case as if obedience of the law is somehow wrong. The problem with the revealed law is that it's just a set of rules, no matter how accurately they may reflect that which I should, indeed, do. The inner man must be changed first or else we're just stuck with these laws that we cannot live up to-a miserable existence- or can do but only in an extremal, hypocritical sense at best. Love is what takes away the hypocrisy; it willingly obeys.

If I obey all the commandments, refraining from murder, adultery, bearing false witness, observing the sabbath, etc, but I don't have love, then I haven't yet even come close to doing God's will, of finding what He wants for me-which is always the best, incidentally. IOW, it's possible to obey the ten commandments, for example, without actually fulfilling them. But I cannot obey the greatest commandments without fulfilling those two because to the extent that I really do love, they're fulfilled; we cannot love hypocritically without it being something other than love. Love will authentically fulfill all the rest, without being under the law, without depending on "works of the law" to justify us. That's the difference. Love can do what the law cannot.

 

[fhansen]

True, there is only one you. It is not possible to distance yourself from your own flesh. It is your flesh. It's sins and sinfulness is your responsibility. Your flesh belongs to you. You can say that the goal is to not be dominated by the flesh, but that is not the goal. The goal is to avoid the condemnation that is rightly ours because of the sinfulness of our own flesh. Only God can forgive your sins.

It's both/and. God forgives our sins, takes them away as He washes, cleanses and gives us the ability to remain that way.

You can't see what John is saying because you do not know he is talking about the spiritual creature that is spiritual in nature (noth physical) that God creates in a person when Jesus comes to live in his heart.

No, John's not trying to confuse us. Neither is Jesus when He says that the commandments must be obeyed in order to inherit eternal life, or Paul when he tells us we must persist in doing good in order to have it. No double-speak. They're not saying, "You must do good and avoid sin, but-wink, wink-only in the virtual, non-physical sense."

Your POV relegates John's words to something totally different. You think he is saying that the creature God created when He gave birth to them can only sin a little, and the thing that limits his sins to only little, infrequent, or short duration sins is the fact that he is the offspring of God. And your POV makes the surrounding verses say similar things... that a person who only sins a little, infrequently, and in short duration is righteous just as Jesus is righteous.

Your POV means that God created man unable to avoid sin. But that is not true. God created everything good and commands nothing that would be impossible for man to obey. Fallen man's problem isn't in having a sinful body, or in having gained a new, sinful, nature at the fall. Man's problem is that something's missing in him, something which he was made for and which makes sin inevitable when lacking. And that "Something" is God. So reconciliation with God is at the heart of the gospel, and that reconciliation is realized, experienced or known, by faith. which is to recognize and accept God as our God again. The body provides plenty of possibility for sin. temptations for it abound, but that doesn't mean that self-control is impossible; man was made with self-control, in fact, all normal passions and appetites in harmony with reason but all that is compromised the minute he walks away from God's control and authority because them morality is up for grabs; man does what is right in his own eyes only, and that can change; it's a relative morality which is now influenced by selfishness, greed, pride.

I'm not saying we can or must be as perfect as Jesus. But we were created with a perfection proper to human nature in mind (we weren't created to be imperfect) and we can begin to live up to it, or not. We must be on that path to perfection and it can only be navigated with God, and with Him at the helm. Then let Him be the judge at the end of the day as to whether we really did let God be God and man be man, with both in the proper order of relationship between Creator and created. That proper order is what's missing in fallen man, and what believers must still struggle with inside themselves. Is the world right? should I worship my freedom first of all, even "freedom" from God, so that I may enjoy any and all possibilities that this world offers? Or is there something better, a much better treasure to be found?

It is not possible to distance ourselves from the new man.

Of course we can, by distancing ourselves from God, generally marked by a life of sin. Life in the Spirit is marked by love, joy, peace, doing good, not by sin. And there's no law against that, against that life, that love. And in that, we're doing God's will.

We have freedom now, from both the law and from sin. But that's the opposite of freedom to sin. But we don't have to worry neurotically or scrupulously about the good or bad of every little thing we do-that's legalism. We must just be aware that sin leads to more sin and the more deeply we're engaged in those sins that constitute a destruction of love, the farther we are from God-and so from salvation.

 

[setst777]

To be clear, all sin is the result of the weakness of the flesh. So, differeentiating between "living in sin" and "committing sins in weakness" is basically the same thing.

The Scriptures make a plain and clear distinction between those who commit a sin in weakness while living sanctified lives from those who continue living in any sin(s) to fulfill their lusts. The former is forgiven and saved, and the latter is condemned.

For instance:

1 John 3:7-9
7 Little children [addressing and warning Christians], let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God continues to live in sin, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot live in sin, because he has been born of God.

Romans 1:32
Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Romans 6:1-4
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:12-14
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

2 Corinthians 12:21
I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced.

Ephesians 4:19
They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

But maybe you are trying to distinguish between the frequency of a person's sins? Would you say if a person sins in weakness once every day is living in sin? How about one sin per week? If frequency of sin is the measure, how often is too often?

1 John 3:7-9
7 Little children [addressing and warning Christians], let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
8 Whoever continues in sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one born of God continues to live in sin, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot live in sin, because he has been born of God.

But maybe you are trying to distinguish between one person's desire to not sin and another person's desire to sin. If so, how can it be argued that a person desires to never sin when it is obvious that their desire to never sin is overcome by their desire to sin in those moments of weakness?

If we keep ourselves in God's Love, then God is faithful and able to keep the faithful from falling into temptation (Jude 1:21-25); in that, he will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able to bear (1 Corinthians 10:13).

If a "Christian" lives in any sin, he shows that his faith is not genuine, that he does not love Lord Jesus, because he refuses to take the way out of temptation that God provides to every Christian.

Granted, a Christian may be deceived by his own flesh, or the words of others, to commit a sin; but a true Christian cannot live in any sin.

But maybe you are trying to distinguish between one person who fully commits to not sinning and another person who does not. At what point does a person's repeated failures to follow through on his commitment indicate that his commitment is worthless?

If a "Christian" deliberately continues in any sin, he is not saved; rather, he will be condemned.

1 John 3:9
No one born of God continues to live in sin, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot live in sin, because he has been born of God.

Hebrews 10:24-31 (WEB) 24 Let us [The “us” are believers, including the Epistle writer] consider how to provoke one another [Christians, including the Epistle writer] to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own [Christians, including the Epistle writer] assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you [Christians] see the Day approaching. 26 For if we [Christians, including the Epistle writer] sin willfully after we [Christians, including the Epistle writer] have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden underfoot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified [Christians who despise the blood of Christ by deliberate sin] an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace [Christians insult the Spirit dwelling in them by their deliberate sins]? 30 For we (Christians, including the Epistle writer) know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge HIS people [those who believe].” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14 31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

My point is this... there is no way for a human being to earn right standing with God through sin-avoidance or through commitment to sin-avoidance. Rightness with God is only through having our sins forgiven. The good thing is Jesus gives His perfect, holy, and righteous life to all that trust fully in Him so that they may serve Him in the newness of the Spirit without regard to the condemnation that otherwise would be theirs due to the sinfulness of their flesh.

The only "Christians" who are cleansed from all sins, sanctified by God, are those who walk in the light by following Lord Jesus into a righteous life.

1 John 1:6-7 (WEB) If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and don’t tell the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 2:4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
7 For God did not call us [Christians, including the Apostle Paul] to be impure, but to live a sanctified life. 8 Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction rejects God, not man. This is the very God who gives to you his Holy Spirit.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

When one begins to understand that love is at the heart of the Christian faith, that it's the reason and motivation for why Jesus came and did all that He did, that it's the nature of God that we're to be transformed into, that it would've prevented Adam from his sin because the love God wants for us and that only He can give obeys Him by its nature, then we begin to know its place. We come to understand that love fulfills the law by its nature because it doesn't cheat, doesn't lie, doesn't steal, murder, or commit adultery. Love will fulfill God's law without even needing to be aware of God's law.

I see why you say people will be judged (and condemned) if they don't live like they should. It is because He has given us the ability to live as He requires by virtue of giving us new life and He commands us to do so. It would be foolish to think that His equipping has flaws, or that He would by some measure be responsible for our failures to accomplish what He equipped us to do, so it is only reasonable to conclude that He would hold us accountable for our failures. If anyone finds that they fail to live up to this high calling, I recommend going to Jesus and seeking His forgiveness.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13

You are right that obedience to the law is the ticket to obtaining eternal life, but that path is open only to those who do it.

One cannot reduce the definition of "the law" to being "anything God obliges me to do", as if doing the opposite means that we're no longer under the law, or in any case as if obedience of the law is somehow wrong.

If God tells someone to think, say, or do something or to not think, say, or do something, and that person thinks, says, or does the opposite then his thoughts, words, or actions (or lack thereof) are evil, regardless of whether there is any law related to what God said. Simple examples include Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, Jonah refusing to go to Nineveh, or Peter telling Jesus in his dream "No Lord". So "the law" should not be narowly defined as only written commandments.

Not being under the law does not relate to conforming or not conforming ourselves to God's commandments or instructions, it relates to the sins and sinfulness that we have in Adam not being held against us and it means we are not condemned by God for our failures to obey the law because we are not under the jurisdiction of the law, but under the jusrisdiction of grace. That is why there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

The problem with the revealed law is that it's just a set of rules, no matter how accurately they may reflect that which I should, indeed, do. The inner man must be changed first or else we're just stuck with these laws that we cannot live up to-a miserable existence- or can do but only in an extremal, hypocritical sense at best. Love is what takes away the hypocrisy; it willingly obeys.

If I obey all the commandments, refraining from murder, adultery, bearing false witness, observing the sabbath, etc, but I don't have love, then I haven't yet even come close to doing God's will, of finding what He wants for me-which is always the best, incidentally. IOW, it's possible to obey the ten commandments, for example, without actually fulfilling them. But I cannot obey the greatest commandments without fulfilling those two because to the extent that I really do love, they're fulfilled; we cannot love hypocritically without it being something other than love. Love will authentically fulfill all the rest, without being under the law, without depending on "works of the law" to justify us. That's the difference. Love can do what the law cannot.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I see "one man here". I see in your words the idea that God-given love creates a willingness and the ability to sincerely and unhypocritically obey the righteous requirements of the law. But then I see that this gift of love comes with an obligation that may not be fulfilled. Where I'm confused is that if the "one man" has received a new heart of love that gives him both the will and the ability to carry out the righteous requirements of the law, where does his (frequent or infrequent) choices to not carry out the righteous requirements of the law come from?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's both/and. God forgives our sins, takes them away as He washes, cleanses and gives us the ability to remain that way.

And what happens when we don't? A second rebirth, then a third, then a fourth, etc? Or just condemnation?

No, John's not trying to confuse us. Neither is Jesus when He says that the commandments must be obeyed in order to inherit eternal life, or Paul when he tells us we must persist in doing good in order to have it. No double-speak. They're not saying, "You must do good and avoid sin, but-wink, wink-only in the virtual, non-physical sense."

I see the the righteousness that I possess as emanating from the Lord who lives in me, Who I have been joined with, and with Whom I am one spirit. You say it is virtual, but I see it and it is really there.

Your POV means that God created man unable to avoid sin.

No, I do not believe that. I belive Adam and Eve had a choice and could have resisted temptation. But things changed after they died spiritually. And they became the source of corruption for mankind; God was not the source. Death came through Adam, but life came through Jesus...

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. (Ro 5:18–19)​

But that is not true. God created everything good and commands nothing that would be impossible for man to obey. Fallen man's problem isn't in having a sinful body, or in having gained a new, sinful, nature at the fall. Man's problem is that something's missing in him, something which he was made for and which makes sin inevitable when lacking. And that "Something" is God. So reconciliation with God is at the heart of the gospel, and that reconciliation is realized, experienced or known, by faith. which is to recognize and accept God as our God again. The body provides plenty of possibility for sin. temptations for it abound, but that doesn't mean that self-control is impossible; man was made with self-control, in fact, all normal passions and appetites in harmony with reason but all that is compromised the minute he walks away from God's control and authority because them morality is up for grabs; man does what is right in his own eyes only, and that can change; it's a relative morality which is now influenced by selfishness, greed, pride.

What your theory fails to address is the inability of people who are saved to refrain from sin. There is no differnce between the sins of a saved person and the sins of a lost person. They are all sins. And you can say that saved people have the ability to not sin, but there is not a saved person alive who does not sin. So what causes that? Answer: we live "with" the flesh (not "in" the flesh) even after we are saved. It will only go away upon our physical deaths. In the meantime, if we want to deny the flesh what it wants, we must walk in the Spirit.

I'm not saying we can or must be as perfect as Jesus. But we were created with a perfection proper to human nature in mind (we weren't created to be imperfect) and we can begin to live up to it, or not. We must be on that path to perfection and it can only be navigated with God, and with Him at the helm. Then let Him be the judge at the end of the day as to whether we really did let God be God and man be man, with both in the proper order of relationship between Creator and created. That proper order is what's missing in fallen man, and what believers must still struggle with inside themselves. Is the world right? should I worship my freedom first of all, even "freedom" from God, so that I may enjoy any and all possibilities that this world offers? Or is there something better, a much better treasure to be found?

Of course we can, by distancing ourselves from God, generally marked by a life of sin. Life in the Spirit is marked by love, joy, peace, doing good, not by sin. And there's no law against that, against that life, that love. And in that, we're doing God's will.

It appears that you only see Christian liberty as an opportunity to indulge the flesh. Perhaps that is why you refuse the call to liberty.

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh (Ga 5:13).​

We have freedom now, from both the law and from sin. But that's the opposite of freedom to sin. But we don't have to worry neurotically or scrupulously about the good or bad of every little thing we do-that's legalism. We must just be aware that sin leads to more sin and the more deeply we're engaged in those sins that constitute a destruction of love, the farther we are from God-and so from salvation.

We don't need to worry ourselves with it because our heavenly Father corrects us from inside our hearts when we go astray. He never leaves us alone. And we will never wake up one day a millioin miles away from Him without knowing how we got there.

5 “My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,​

Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;​

6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,​

And scourges every son whom He receives.”​

​

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:5–11)​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

This is completely non-responsive. I said that all sins are committed in weakness, but you say:

The Scriptures make a plain and clear distinction between those who commit a sin in weakness while living sanctified lives from those who continue living in any sin(s) to fulfill their lusts. The former is forgiven and saved, and the latter is condemned.

For instance: 1 John 3:7-9, Romans 1:32, Romans 6:1-4, Romans 6:12-14, 2 Corinthians 12:21, and Ephesians 4:19

None of those verses discuss "sins committed in weakness". The reason they don't is that the "weakness" of man to live up to the requirenets of the law are because of the depravity of the flesh that all men possess.

I asked if you would say that if a person sins in weakness once every day is living in sin. How about one sin per week? If frequency of sin is the measure, how often is too often? You deflected completely and just repeated your referenced 1 John 3:7-9. Is there a reason you can't anwer the question?

Then I asked how can it be argued that a person desires to never sin when it is obvious that their desire to never sin is overcome by their desire to sin in those moments of weakness. You responded with the following.

If we keep ourselves in God's Love, then God is faithful and able to keep the faithful from falling into temptation (Jude 1:21-25); in that, he will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able to bear (1 Corinthians 10:13).

If a "Christian" lives in any sin, he shows that his faith is not genuine, that he does not love Lord Jesus, because he refuses to take the way out of temptation that God provides to every Christian.

Granted, a Christian may be deceived by his own flesh, or the words of others, to commit a sin; but a true Christian cannot live in any sin.

My question was based on the converse of 1 Corinthians 10:13, which is... if God provides a way of escape with every temptation, then every time a person succumbs to temptation is because he chose not to take the way out. How does the choice to not take the way out (even in moments of weakness) demonstrate the person has the desire to never sin? It should be obvious that in his moment of weakness he did not want to take the escape route the Lord provided. You totally failed to address the issue of "desire".

Finally, I wanted to know at what point does a person's repeated failures to follow through on his commitment indicate that his commitment was worthless. This was your response:

If a "Christian" deliberately continues in any sin, he is not saved; rather, he will be condemned.

Then you quoted 1 John 3:9 again and Hebrews 10:24-31.

You chose to not address my point at all. The reason I brought it up is that it should be obvious to a person who is evaluating their own often repeated failures to follow through on their commitment to repent that their commitment is not worth the paper it is written on.

My questions addressed and dismantled all your arguments that excused sins committed in weakness because 1) all sins are commited in weakness, 2) frequently repeated sins are common to those who only sin in weakness, 3) the desire to sin is present in those who only sin in weakness, and 4) lack of follow-through on the commitment to repent is demonstrated in those who only sin in weakness. And these facts dismantle your repeated declaration that...

The only "Christians" who are cleansed from all sins, sanctified by God, are those who walk in the light by following Lord Jesus into a righteous life.

 

[fhansen]

I see why you say people will be judged (and condemned) if they don't live like they should. It is because He has given us the ability to live as He requires by virtue of giving us new life and He commands us to do so. It would be foolish to think that His equipping has flaws, or that He would by some measure be responsible for our failures to accomplish what He equipped us to do, so it is only reasonable to conclude that He would hold us accountable for our failures. If anyone finds that they fail to live up to this high calling, I recommend going to Jesus and seeking His forgiveness.

You are right that obedience to the law is the ticket to obtaining eternal life, but that path is open only to those who do it.

There's never been more than one way to God-and that's to love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength-and then our neighbor as ourselves. That's our salvation, our very purpose-why man was created. And that love will obey God and fulfill the law, authentically, willingly, by its nature. It will never offend but only praise and serve God; it will never harm neighbor. It's to know God, and to know Him is to love Him.
"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

Even while acknowledging that we won't fully know Him until the next life, 1 Cor 13:12.

If God tells someone to think, say, or do something or to not think, say, or do something, and that person thinks, says, or does the opposite then his thoughts, words, or actions (or lack thereof) are evil, regardless of whether there is any law related to what God said. Simple examples include Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, Jonah refusing to go to Nineveh, or Peter telling Jesus in his dream "No Lord". So "the law" should not be narowly defined as only written commandments.

Again, to be "under the law" means to be under the commandments. These are the "works of the law" that Paul specifically objected to because, again, mere external obedience does not equal holiness. It's that simple.

Not being under the law does not relate to conforming or not conforming ourselves to God's commandments or instructions, it relates to the sins and sinfulness that we have in Adam not being held against us and it means we are not condemned by God for our failures to obey the law because we are not under the jurisdiction of the law, but under the jusrisdiction of grace. That is why there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

You misunderstand the purpose of grace. It's not forgiveness of past sin only, but freedom from the slavery to sin now. Rom 5:17:
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"

Further explained by Rom 6:22
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life."

I see the the righteousness that I possess as emanating from the Lord who lives in me, Who I have been joined with, and with Whom I am one spirit. You say it is virtual, but I see it and it is really there.

No, I do not believe that. I belive Adam and Eve had a choice and could have resisted temptation. But things changed after they died spiritually. And they became the source of corruption for mankind; God was not the source. Death came through Adam, but life came through Jesus...

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. (Ro 5:18–19)

Yes!! Only with God can man avoid sin!! That reconciliation and resulting union is the basis of the new covenant-and man's righteousness.

Hmmm. I'm not sure I see "one man here". I see in your words the idea that God-given love creates a willingness and the ability to sincerely and unhypocritically obey the righteous requirements of the law. But then I see that this gift of love comes with an obligation that may not be fulfilled. Where I'm confused is that if the "one man" has received a new heart of love that gives him both the will and the ability to carry out the righteous requirements of the law, where does his (frequent or infrequent) choices to not carry out the righteous requirements of the law come from?

Augustine put it this way:
“It is the grace of God that helps the wills of men; and when they are not helped by it, the reason is in themselves, not in God.”