SALVATION

[ladodgers6]

Repentance is not one of the nine "fruits" of the Spirit, rather repentance enables the fruits of the Spirit to nourish the wellness of our minds and the wellness of others.

“Bear fruit in keeping with repentance.” (Matthew 3:8)​

Repentance should produce "fruit" ... Fruit "in keeping with repentance" represents the changed behavior flowing from a truly repentant heart and the renewing of one's mind.

Turn from sin and keep turning from sin so you can experience the fruits of the Spirit which should lead to freedom from sin ... "Go and sin no more" and "Stop your sinning or something worse may happen"

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,​

goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.​

Understand that everything we have we receive it from God. Fallen mankind doesn't possess repentance apart from God granting it.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, their objections were put to rest, and they glorified God, saying, “So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.”

 

[setst777]

So, you are suggesting this intrinsic good faculty is possessed by fallen man, apart from God's Grace?

No such suggestion was ever made by me. I introduced and quoted the Scriptures for you. I did my part by planting the seed of God's Word.

We access God's saving grace by faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith {{{we}}} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

We access all God's Gracious Promises by faith.

Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do you think God's word is lying to us? Do you think anything is impossible for God? Do you think He created you created you to be a sinner???

Of course God's word is not lying to us!

And nothing is impossible for God.

He intended for me to be a sinner in need of saving, so that I would be saved —if that's what you mean by "created me to be a sinner". Now if you can present for me that the command to be without sin implies the ability to obey that command, have at it. But don't assume it.

 

[ladodgers6]

No such suggestion was ever made by me. I introduced and quoted the Scriptures for you. I did my part by planting the seed of God's Word.

We access God's saving grace by faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith {{{we}}} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

We access all God's Gracious Promises by faith.

Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

You did say it's not given correct?

 

[ladodgers6]

No such suggestion was ever made by me. I introduced and quoted the Scriptures for you. I did my part by planting the seed of God's Word.

We access God's saving grace by faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith {{{we}}} have peace [reconciliation] with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have {{{our access}}} by the faith into this grace in which we now stand.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith.

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

We access all God's Gracious Promises by faith.

Romans 4:13 (WEB) 13 For the promise to Abraham and to his offspring that he should be heir of the world wasn’t through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 (NIV) 16 …the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (WEB) 11 We desire that each one of you may show the same diligence to the fullness of hope even to the end, 12 that you won’t be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and perseverance inherited the promises.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps anyone of you should seem to have come short of a promise of entering into His Rest.

1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you so superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

 

[ladodgers6]

Do you think God's word is lying to us? Do you think anything is impossible for God? Do you think He created you created you to be a sinner???

Typical caricature straw-man argument. God created Adam upright and good. Adam possessed all the faculties to obey or disobey God. It was by One Man Act of Disobedience (Rom. 5:12-21), that brought sin into the world and death through sin. So, instead you should do your homework and understand these topics, and avoid three party anti-calvinism sites to get garbage.​

 

[setst777]

1 Cor. 4:7 For who makes you so superior? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

In context, what Paul is teaching in "1 Corinthians 4:7" is that all Christians should be relying on God and God's Word rather than putting our faith in any man, follow one man over another, to receive what only God gave us by our faith in Him. All God's gifts and promises to Christians are received by Faith in God, not in man. So do not follow men.

1 Corinthians 4:6-8 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!

 

[fhansen]

Thank you, finally!!! It's by Grace Alone. Not by a synergistic participation, but by God's Grace Alone. It's His doing alone, not ours!

Finally? That’s what the church has taught for 2000 years-and what I’ve maintained all through this thread. Synergism comes into play in that we can say no to grace, by God’s discretion, according to His perfect will. God didn’t give man free will in Eden just so He could later deny it and suddenly make man into some sort of obedient automaton who can only choose rightly after centuries later of commanding man to be obedient beginning in Eden. God gave man free will so that he might choose rightly, even as He knows the help of grace is necessary in that. Our “job” is only to say yes, to choose Him as our God, as opposed to Adam's rejection of Him as his God. That’s what faith does. That’s the basis of the new covenant, that’s what makes man aright again, as he was intended to be. And that’s why it’s taken so much time, with so much patience on God’s part. Again, God didn’t suddenly change the rules and say, “Hey, fellas, time out, I changed my mind, You no longer need to be righteous and live accordingly, I’ll just make some of you do it-or pretend that you’re doing it. I should’ve thought of that in the beginning, and we could’ve avoided all that awful human pain and suffering down through time, but, oh well.”

That is exactly the point we are worthy of death, condemnation and punishment because of Original Sin of Adam and our personal sins as well. Again you are misplacing what we are saying. It is God who resurrects the dead, this is a divine act, not a human act of sinners! And when he makes us alive in His Son, He also gives all of the heavenly blessings of Christ that He merited by His perfect Obedience. See you keep trying to locate your Salvation in your response or activity rather than in the Gospel itself; namely Christ and His finished works! This sir is Grace Alone. If you add or substract from this you have another gospel that Paul warned us about.

But that’s not what He’s doing. He’s using the experience, individually and corporately, of human life in a world where the Master is effectively gone away, as Adam (man) wanted it to be for all practical purposes, and where good and evil are literally known here, daily, So that we might know what darkness is like and so be all the more ready to grasp the light when its shown us, like prodigal’s wearied by the pigsty and longing for home. This, too, is grace, God drawing us to Himself without overtly causing us to choose rightly. He coaxes and prompts and appeals to your will; He does not determine it for you.

“Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:31

“Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.” John 12:44-46

“Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.” Matt 5:6

No sir it does not, I said to you earlier in our discussion that you are conflating Justification with Sanctification. A sinner is Justified on the sole merits of Christ Alone. The Passive Obedience (Penal Substitutionary Atonement) of Christ propitiates the wrath of God for our sins, and atones for our sins; past, present and future sins once and for all. The Active Obedience of Christ provides us with the positive righteousness we need to enter heaven.

No! the purpose of faith is not to do away with your obligation to be righteous, to love to put it most accurately. The purpose pf faith is the opposite of that, in fact, to bring you to the feet of God so that you may be remade anew. Your theology makes sin ok. Again, can a believer sin wantonly and expect to make it into heaven??

But Paul anticipates the objection of Free Grace in Romans 6, after preaching about Free Grace for sinners, Paul knew people would object to this, so Paul quickly answers it before they object. 1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? The reason Paul says this because Free Grace for sinners is not a license to sin, but on the contrary, being slaves to sin and now being freed from sin in Christ how can we continue to sin?

Paul exhorts you to remain a slave to righteousness in Rom 6, because sin will earn you death. Grace does not force us to remain such slaves, to become some sort of righteous robots.

Here is the newness of walking in the Spirit for believers, not sinners who are not saved. Once a sinner is justified in Christ through faith Alone they can now live to God. Big difference, hope you take the time to understand this.

Yes! This is what we can now do. And must do, picking up our cross and following daily, in order to inherit eternal life. That's Scriptural. Faith is not a one-time believing in and professing some truth mantras about Jesus; it's a turning to God and remaining in and with Him through whatever time we have in this life, and growing in that relationship, in our nearness to Him- or having a complete change of heart and then returning to Him in repentance if we've seriously strayed. And repeat until the end and then let Him be the judge of how we've done with the grace He's given us. Fortunately most Protestants know intuitively that what they do in this life, how they live, counts, regardless of any somewhat slanted theologies.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The will of the Spirit is to indwell all those who commit to an obedient repentant faith in Lord Jesus.

As we follow Christ by faith, which is our responsibility before God, the indwelling Spirit continues to lead us to Life - guaranteed.

“Life” or “Eternal Life” is given by the Spirit to the “believer” who continuously sows to the Spirit, not to flesh.

Eternal Life is Eternal, and is given to those who believe (present and continuous).

Gentiles share in the Promises made to Israel, grafted into Christ by faith. The Gentile is admonished to remain faithful to remain in The Promise that was made to Israel.

To “remain faithful” is repeatedly explained in Scripture to include repentance – dead to sin to follow Christ, just as Baptism represents.

The Apostle Paul admonishes Gentile Christians that, what happened to the Jews (who are God’s Promised People) will surely happen to them; therefore, we are to learn from their example and remain faithful.

The Israelites who fell are examples to warn Christians.

Hebrews 4:11 (WEB) 11 Let us [Christians] therefore give diligence to enter into that Rest, lest anyone fall after the {{same example of disobedience}}.

The Israelites who fell were not examples to warn Christians. They were examples to warn those who trust in themselves and are working hard to gain salvation through through their good works instead of trusting God to save them from the "giants" who are blocking them from possessing the promised land.

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest (Heb 4:2–3).​

and,

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:10)​

The one working for his salvation does not get it, but the one resting from his works and trusting in Christ does.

 

[fhansen]

Typical caricature straw-man argument. God created Adam upright and good. Adam possessed all the faculties to obey or disobey God. It was by One Man Act of Disobedience (Rom. 5:12-21), that brought sin into the world and death through sin. So, instead you should do your homework and understand these topics, and avoid three party anti-calvinism sites to get garbage.

I wouldn't even now where to look for such sites-I can find all the info right here in these forums, from posts such as your own. I rather think you're suffering from exposure to anti-Catholic thought and material instead of researching the Catholic sources themselves, for yourself. I could help show you where to look, however, if truth is the objective for you.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

As a Christian walks in the light, which is sanctified life onto God, then any sins we do commit in weakness, God is faithful and just to forgive. But if a Christian begins to live in any sin, then he has become the devil's own.

It is good that you recognize there are times that Christians need God's forgiveness for their sins. Now you only need to extend the timeframe to "always" so that the sins of your own flesh don't count against you.

 

[AbbaLove]

It is good that you recognize there are times that Christians need God's forgiveness for their sins. Now you only need to extend the timeframe to "always" so that the sins of your own flesh don't count against you.

That is basically what Christendom tells the sheep, because if the church told the congregation the following (John 6:60-66, Galatians 5:24) it wouldn't be received as readily as your above quote. Does God expect any less of His disciples and followers today as He did in the 1st century?

6:60 On hearing it, many of His disciples said, "This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?" 65 Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.” 66 From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. 67 So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?"​

Those who are followers of Christ Jesus have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24).​

​

Does God expect any less of a follower than He does of a disciple?​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Then what's the argument? As I've been saying all along grace gives you that ability to obey now. If you don't obey then you don't know God, are not are not walking in the Spirit, are not a child of God, not living under grace. To think you're automatically forgiven of any degree of future sin is not Scriptural at all, and mocks God and His grace. Again, that changes exactly nothing, leaving us as we were before we "believed".

I'm not sure I can put my finger on it precicely. We seem to be operating under different definitions of various words. That probably complicates our ability to communicate effectively. Let's just take two sentences from above as an example:

1. As I've been saying all along grace gives you that ability to obey now.
2. If you don't obey then you don't know God, are not are not walking in the Spirit, are not a child of God, not living under grace.

​

You say grace gives us the ability to obey. If we don't obey then we are not under grace.

I see grace as "unmerited favor" which contrasts with the favor that is secured by obedience to the law as in "for you are not under law but under grace" (Ro 6:14). The Louw-Nida Greek-English Lexicon places this semantic distinction with the Greek word, "χάρις" in Romans 6:14 -- "to show kindness to someone, with the implication of graciousness on the part of the one showing such kindness—‘to show kindness, to manifest graciousness toward, kindness, graciousness, grace.’" I see Romans 6:14 as saying that our failures to obey (i.e., our sins) do not dictate our relationship with God because we are not under law, but are recippients of His unmerited favor.

But you see being under grace as being hand-in-glove with obedience. You even go as far as to say if a person does not obey, then he does "not know God", he is "not a child of God", and he is "not living under grace". But this POV brings into question your definition of "obey". I suppose, based on previous conversations that disobeying is allowed as long as disobeying is followed by obeying the rules for restoration. But if disobeying is followed by disobeying the rules for restoration, than that proves you do not know God, are not His child, and are not under grace.

All the above describes one aspect of our difficulties. Some of the other aspects of our difficulties are harder to put in words.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes there is, that's yours, a bit wayward from the true path. Mine is the true path, Christ's way, as understood in Christianity from the beginning; God didn't withhold that knowledge from His people for 1500 years. It involves grace, the Holy Spirit, and love, all three being interrelated, quite different from the first path that could only point to our failure to do what the true path finally can do, what God can do when we turn to Him IOW.

This reminds me of a Star Trek episode where they came across a civilization that had an ancient copy of the US Constitution but did not know the English language. Their scholars came up with the most absurd interpretation until Kirk showed them what it really says.

Wow. The holiness you think you identify in the bible is a sham.

It's a pearl of great price. Thank you, Lord for sharing it with me.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

That is basically what Christendom tells the sheep, because if the church told the congregation the following (John 6:60-66, Galatians 5:24) it wouldn't be received as readily as your above quote. Does God expect any less of His disciples and followers today as He did in the 1st century?

6:60 On hearing it, many of His disciples said, "This is a difficult teaching. Who can accept it?" 65 Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him.” 66 From that time on many of His disciples turned back and no longer walked with Him. 67 So Jesus asked the Twelve, “Do you want to leave too?"​

Those who are followers of Christ Jesus have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. (Galatians 5:24).​

​

Does God expect any less of a follower than He does of a disciple?​

I have no clue as to what point you are making.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Finally? That’s what the church has taught for 2000 years-and what I’ve maintained all through this thread. Synergism comes into play in that we can say no to grace, by God’s discretion, according to His perfect will. God didn’t give man free will in Eden just so He could later deny it and suddenly make man into some sort of obedient automaton who can only choose rightly after centuries later of commanding man to be obedient beginning in Eden.

Why can't you get it into your head that God can make of you what you want apart from your permission in both births? Your agreement to it is BECAUSE of your changed nature —not because of free will— can you at least see that structure (whether you agree or not that it is true)?

 

[Clare73]

But the only way a sinner can be declared righteous before is by being righteous. And this by Christ's righteousness being imputed/credited/given to the ungodly through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law, Paul says.​

No. . .there are two kinds of righteousness in the NT, which are not the same:
justification - forensic righteous by declaration of God as "not guilty" because of faith in Christ, which applies his atoning merit to the believer,
sanctification - actual righteousness of holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16,19).

When one's sin is remitted through faith in Jesus Christ, one is declared by God to be not only sinless, but also righteous (justified).
He is not declared by God to be actually righteous (sanctified, holy), which comes in the sanctification of obedience in the Holy Spirit,
but to be forensically righteous (justified), righteous by declaration because of sinlessness.

The righteousness of Ro 5:18-19 is justification--declaration by God, it is not Christ's own righteousness.
Christ's own righteousness is not imputed to the believer.
All references to righteousness in Christ refer to our being declared (forensically) righteous because of the merit of Christ applied to our sin, thereby removing our sin and God declaring us righteous (justification). (Ro 5:18).

There's only two ways that provide righteousness either through the Law (which is a ship that sailed long ago),​

The law was never given for the righteousness of salvation, for salvation has always been by faith (Ge 15:5-6).
The law was given simply to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

or by the Free Gift of Righteousness given to the ungodly,​

The righteousness given to men is that declared by God (Ge 15:5-6, Ro 4:1-5) because of faith (justification), or
the righteousness of sanctification through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16, 19).

and it's here that a sinner is clothed before God, and God can declared the sinner righteous.​

Justification (dikaiosis, declaration of righteousness by God) is a forensic righteousness (legal standing of righteousness),
not an actual righteousness of holiness, through the sanctification (hagiasmos) of obedience.

 

[Clare73]

So that's your Christian ethic for not doing any [physical] works even those, inspired by the Holy Spirit out of Christian love (e.g. Mother Teresa, Heidi Baker).
Without righteousness of mind, heart and body where then is righteous faith?

Previously addressed. . .

Apparently he choose not to accept "actual righteousness" as one's fervent belief in God ... In so doing he choose to purposely misinterpret and misrepresent the actual intent of your heart. He's trying so hard to discredit you that it reminds me of a Christian tare that's so intent that he's right ... that he will go out of the way to misrepresent the intent of your heart.
He comes across as if he has an axe to grind by going out of his way to misrepresent your posts. His reply implies that he has no actual righteousness of mind and heart?
How can you have actual Faith and yet have no actual righteousness?

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Clare73]

Um, no. Works of the law do not make one righteous. Only God can do that. Then our works, now stemming from true righteousness, the "righteousness of God", are used in our salvation.

Salvation never was (Ge 15:5-6), is not (Ro 4:1-5, Eph 2:8-9) and never will be by works.

"Salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)

If you are referring to salvation present (sanctification, as distinct from salvation past through faith) in the obedience of faith, then our works are the result of our salvation and are the means of our sanctification in the Holy Spirit.

 

[ladodgers6]

In context, what Paul is teaching in "1 Corinthians 4:7" is that all Christians should be relying on God and God's Word rather than putting our faith in any man, follow one man over another, to receive what only God gave us by our faith in Him. All God's gifts and promises to Christians are received by Faith in God, not in man. So do not follow men.

1 Corinthians 4:6-8 (NIV) 6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? 8 Already you have all you want! Already you have become rich! You have begun to reign—and that without us! How I wish that you really had begun to reign so that we also might reign with you!

No Sir, there is nothing that a sinner receives that he can boast about. You want something to boast about before God, but Abraham could not boast before God, so what makes you think you can?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

Why couldn't Abraham boast before God? Because first of all sinners are exactly that sinners before God. And there is absolutely nothing good in man to boast about. In fact, sinners are already condemned under the Law, and are an abomination to the Lord. The only way a sinner can be redeemed is if God frees us by giving everything; namely His own Son, to take our place and suffer the sinner's death and punishment, and propitiate God's holy and righteous judgement and wrath against sin upon His own head. His Son also fulfilled the Law requirements with perfect holiness and obedience to fulfill the will of His Father for His people.

Grace sir, is not earned or merited by sinners hands, nor can it ever be. It is given freely by God who is rich in Mercy. Faith & Repentance are God's gifts to sinners, these abilities are not found in a fallen mankind. Faith removes any boasting of the sinner because it is given and not earned through sinners efforts.


Romans 3:27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

This is why in the very next chapter in Romans, Paul makes a juxtaposition between Works Vs. Gift in regards to a sinner being justified before God by Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. We bring nothing to the table, except our sin, that God also take care of. It's all His doing, it is by Grace Alone. ​