SALVATION

[setst777]

Mark Quayle said:
Quote it, please. Two things there: 1. Except in the context of Salvation and Regeneration, I don't think I have ever said it was God's choice alone.

Wrong. That statement depends entirely on what is meant by free will.

All of us who have seen your posts know you argue against those who believe in free will. So, for you to now say we do have free will is deception on your part.

I let your quotes speak for themselves. Everyone here can read, just as well as I can, so I will let the reader of these posts throughout time indefinite - as long as these posts remain on this board, which is decades or longer - see for themselves what you actually stated and believe about the true nature of man's choices:

According to you, we do not have free will; rather, even man's choices are God causing man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

According to you, there are no choices that we make that are not all caused by God, causing them to be what they are to the point of their condemnation or salvation.

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation.

Mark Quayle said: ... we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

So, go ahead deny, but your quotes are all here for all to see.

2. Even in the context of Predetermination, I don't think I've ever said, "what our minds perceive as our own choices (an allusion) is actually God determining it to happen." I'm not saying that you are lying. I'm guessing that that is what your mind took me to be saying.

In the context of all your previous quotes, any choices we appear to make by ourselves, is an illusion, because God is causing our choices, us controlled by HIS choices.

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: I call God's willed plan, in both its general and specific intentions, God 'decree' or 'decrees'. The general, implicitly, necessarily composed of all the specific details of creation and creation's logical effects/ results. There is logically no difference between what God planned, what God did and what happened/happens/will happen, except in the way our minds must deal with or consider what God determined.

 

[setst777]

Actually, so he WILL believe. He will not until he is raised from death to life (Eph 2). That is regeneration.

We are raised from death to life by faith:

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

These Scriptures need no explaining, as they are quite plain to understand.

But I see already, you have strayed from the argument onto a side issue —libertarian free will as applies to belief. Ok, I'll play.

Now it falls to you to show how those passages demonstrate that regeneration follows a decision to believe.

If I explain anything, it is not for you, but for all those who read these messages to time indefinite.

You already believe that regeneration is by the indwelling of the Spirit, so that is a given - I quote you:

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere we read that regeneration is necessarily by the Spirit's Indwelling.

The Scriptures teach that the Spirit (and its regeneration) indwelling us are by faith - to all who believe, and this is a New Covenant Promise that occurred only after Lord Jesus was glorified.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant The Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Again, the Spirit indwells us by faith:

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

These Scriptures are all very plain to understand. To explain what is already plainly stated is redundant.

Therefore, in contrast to what you believe,

The Scriptures teach just the opposite; in that, we are to believe so we may be regenerated (given life) by the indwelling Spirit.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Once again, despite the fact that you interpret these Passages to mean something else, these Scriptures are all very plain to understand. To explain what is already plainly stated is redundant.

Co-incidence is not causation. The same Spirit caused both salvific faith and regeneration.

The Passages quoted plainly state that the Promised Spirit is received by faith, and that regeneration is by faith, and is a New Covenant Promise that only occurred after Lord Jesus was glorified - according to the Scriptures.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant The Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Colossians 2:12 (WEB) 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God

 

[Mark Quayle]

AbbaLove had said the following:



You replied as follows:

Mark Quayle said:
Define "free" there. It is not Reformed theology, to say that we are able to have salvific faith apart from the work of God.

Thanks

 

[setst777]

Thanks

You are welcome.

 

[Mark Quayle]

AbbaLove said:
Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.

AbbaLove said:
So you believe man doesn't have free will for obedience, but does for disobedience?

Mark Quayle said:
Define free will

Adam and Eve had "free will" to either obey or not obey God's directive to not eat/touch the forbidden fruit from the tree in the middle of the Garden ...

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘you must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”​

2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,​

3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”​

4“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman.​

5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

Did God never-ever want Adam to know the difference between doing good and doing evil(sin)? If so why then did God make the serpent more crafty than any other animal? Why did God even allow the crafty devious serpent in the Garden to tempt Eve and Adam?

Was knowing the difference between good and evil the only possible way for mankind to receive SALVATION ... by knowing the difference between unrighteousness and righteousness with actions of "good works" Ephesians 2:10 ...

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for "good works', which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

Are not "good works" only possible with the indwelling influence of the Holy Spirit abiding in us and us abiding in Him.

It was the prostitute Rahab's "free will" by which she hid the spies choosing to believe in the God of Israel instead of the gods of the canaanites? As a prostitute she apparently had enuf knowledge/experience to know that the gods of the Canannites were as devious as the so-called ?devout? men that visited her.

Good thoughts, but, they don't really define "free will". You could have substituted, "choice", or simply, "will", for, "free will", to the same effect.

Your answer is vague. My question is specifically, is it uncaused choice? Or merely real choice? Does "real choice" necessarily imply that God did not choose to cause that person to make that choice?

To some, God's choice and man's choice are mutually exclusive. What do you think?

I asked what you meant by free will, in order to answer your questions or comments:

"Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.​

"So you believe man doesn't have free will for obedience, but does for disobedience?"​

 

[BNR32FAN]

The branches are the kingdom, where both live and dead branches are in the kingdom.

The point of the message is that these people are in Christ and they must remain in Him to receive salvation. You’re saying that tares are joined to by satan Christ because it’s the only way you can twist the passage to coincide with your theology.

 

[Clare73]

The point of the message is that these people are in Christ and they must remain in Him to receive salvation. You’re saying that tares are joined to by satan Christ because it’s the only way you can twist the passage to coincide with your theology.

No, that is not the point. The point is that they are in the kingdom (branches) of Christ (the vine).
just as the field is the kingdom of Christ, the planter.
And in the kingdom which is Christ's, there are some that abide in him and some that do not,
just as in the kingdom which is Christ's, there is some grain that is wheat and some grain that is tares.

Th field and the vine are two parables about the kingdom, the Jewish focal point.

 

[Jo555]

No, that is not the point. The point is that they are in the kingdom (branches) of Christ (the vine).
just as the field is the kingdom of Christ, the planter.
And in the kingdom which is Christ's, there are some that abide in him and some that do not,
just as in the kingdom which is Christ's, there is some grain that is wheat and some grain that is tares.

The point of the message is that these people are in Christ and they must remain in Him to receive salvation. You’re saying that tares are joined to by satan Christ because it’s the only way you can twist the passage to coincide with your theology.

From how i read those scriptures the branches are believers. It is talking about the Jewish people and the Gentiles. It is very clear. How is that missed. Don't over-think it for the sake of argument. Not saying that is what is happening for sure, just seems so.

It is clearly stated that the branches are the jews and the gentiles

They are in the vine because they believe ...because they believe.

Jesus said he is the vine and we are the branches.
Furthermore

 

[Jo555]

AbbaLove said:
Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.

AbbaLove said:
So you believe man doesn't have free will for obedience, but does for disobedience?

Mark Quayle said:
Define free will


Good thoughts, but, they don't really define "free will". You could have substituted, "choice", or simply, "will", for, "free will", to the same effect.

Your answer is vague. My question is specifically, is it uncaused choice? Or merely real choice? Does "real choice" necessarily imply that God did not choose to cause that person to make that choice?

To some, God's choice and man's choice are mutually exclusive. What do you think?

I asked what you meant by free will, in order to answer your questions or comments:

"Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.​

"So you believe man doesn't have free will for obedience, but does for disobedience?"​

Why is freewill such a part of this thread. It is apparent that some are set in stone in regards to freewill. Can you all state your case and move on with freewill topic.

Give the Holy Spirit time to work.

This salvation topic is great and now freewill, imo, is distracting from another great topic. Heed the warning in 2 timothy 2.

We can dispute our stand on it, but when this stuff keeps coming up and on and on and distracting from other great topics, move on...

 

[BNR32FAN]

From how i read those scriptures the branches are believers. It is talking about the Jewish people and the Gentiles. It is very clear. How is that missed. Don't over-think it for the sake of argument. Not saying that is what is happening for sure, just seems so.

It is clearly stated that the branches are the jews and the gentiles

They are in the vine because they believe ...because they believe.

Jesus said he is the vine and we are the branches.
Furthermore

Yes I agree only believers can be in Christ. He specifically said in verse 2 “Every branch in Me”. Clare says some of the branches who are joined to Christ are tares that were planted by satan. She’s trying to incorporate the parable of the wheat and tares into the passage because she doesn’t want to admit that Jesus taught that believers can fall away.

 

[Jo555]

What i mean by move on is let it rest. There are some obviously not seeing properly and pulling from everywhere to back their beliefs, and they don't want to let it go. You can repeat yourself, but when does it stop?

 

[Clare73]

From how i read those scriptures the branches are believers.

In the pattern of Jesus' parable on the field (the kingdom), the branches are the kingdom (the field), wherein are professors of faith--some professions are true faith (living branches, wheat), some professions are counterfeit faith (dead branches, tares).

It is talking about the Jewish people and the Gentiles. It is very clear. How is that missed.
Don't over-think it for the sake of argument. Not saying that is what is happening for sure, just seems so.

Agreed. . .

But the poster is requiring that Scripture be in agreement with itself throughout Scripture.
That requires reconciling when there seems to be disagreement.

It is clearly stated that the branches are the jews and the gentiles

That is nowhere clearly stated.

They are in the vine because they believe ...because they believe.

They are in the vine (kingdom) because they profess to believe.

Jesus said he is the vine and we are the branches.
Furthermore

Yes, true faith are the living branches abiding in the vine.
The dead branches are counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23), those who profess faith, but do not actually possess saving faith; i.e., Holy Spirit changed hearts.

 

[fhansen]

Not sur if this post went through before so I'm posting again because i believe it is very important in understanding the cutting away.

I'd emphasize that the cutting off that Jesus spoke of in John 15 was a cutting off because no fruit was produced. The gospel is all about being, and remaining, in communion with Him. And that union can't be real unless good fruit is realized by it. The New Covenant isn't a reprieve from man's obligation to be righteous but is actually the authentic means to accomplishing that very thing.

Anyway, related to this I'd also emphasize that faith is more than a one-time event, or about believing a few certain truths or repeating some mantra about Jesus, or about our sins being forgiven as long as we believe they’re forgiven.

Faith is to come to know God through the person of Jesus Christ by everything He said and did and so to jump on board with Him, because you know that He has the words of eternal life, that He has something far better than anything this world has to offer on its own. “On its own” is the path of Adam, a path apart from God. We now turn back away from that path and embark on God's path, the one we were meant to be on. We turn away from the world and sin even if we will still continue to struggle with and against and be tested by both.

None of our individual theologies will necessarily be perfect, BTW, but we can know Him, we can begin to know Him sufficiently to believe in, hope in, and love Him, and then to grow stronger in that knowledge and in those virtues. And that’s what it’s all about. To the extent that we do that, we are malleable clay in his hands. He can do His work, of putting his law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. And, again, if that righteousness doesn't begin shining through, then the relationship isn't even genuine, or it's been compromised, abandoned.

 

[Jo555]

Yes I agree only believers can be in Christ. He specifically said in verse 2 “Every branch in Me”. Clare says some of the branches who are joined to Christ are tares that were planted by satan. She’s trying to incorporate the parable of the wheat and tares into the passage because she doesn’t want to admit that Jesus taught that believers can fall away.

Maybe i missing something, but to me it is simply laid out. You believe, you remain. You don't believe, you are cut off from Christ. Yet you also see that jews have not been cut off forever. It's a temporary position so that the Gentiles can be grafted in.

More i can say, but short on time.

 

[Jo555]

The branches are professors of faith, some professions are true faith, some professions are counterfeit faith.

Agreed. . .

But the poster is requiring that Scripture be in agreement with itself throughout Scripture.
That requires reconciling when there seems to be disagreement.

That is nowhere clearly stated.

they are in the vine (kingdom) because they profess to believe.

Yes, true faith are the living branches abiding in the vine.
Counterfeit faith (Mt 7:22-23) are those who profess faith, but do not possess saving faith; i.e., Holy Spirit changed hearts.

Don't have time to reply now, but when i do i will. Thank you.

Sometimes i come fashionably late to a party so want to ask, are you discussing what the book of Romans says about the vine? I be back to check with more time

 

[AbbaLove]

fhansen said:​

All right, but IMO and the opinion of the church historically, relationship with God is like any relationship in that we can value it and cultivate and nourish it; we can remain in Him, or we can also abandon it, abandon Him.​

Abandoning God means returning to the flesh, to sin. It's generally to value the praise of men and bend to the will of the world over Him and His will. It's to fail to love, to put it another way.'s

If you will reread my post #588 it is about it being a church's denominational preference (which is quite evident in the 30+ pages of this thread. No where in my post (#588) did I ever imply abandoning God (God is not it)... rather your reference to the historical church (it) refers to abandoning a church whose doctrine/dogma may encourage someone to grow closer in their relationship to man's "historical church" than drawing closer in their relationship with Christ Jesus. In other words a historically domnate church may believe one's eternal life is only possible as a loyal, faithful member of that church.

Am posting again so you can see that there was no inference to abandoning God ...

For example, if it's a cessationist church and a longtime faithful member [of that church] has recently received one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; especially speaking in an "unknown" tongue, the church may even encourage that member to find a church that believes like him/her.

In actuality it's sometimes best to abandon a church for another with faith, fellowship, love that encourages a closer walk with Him.

The 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthains 12) are still active today in His "church" when it's His will to deposit one of the Spiritual Gifts ...

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.​

One the other hand if a faithful member of a Charasmatic Church has never received one of the 9 Spiritual Gifts and thinks some of the worship activities are weird he/she may be better served finding another church that encourages his/her relationship with the Lord that's more grounded on the Word than desiring Spiritual Gifts.

No wonder your thread is now going on 31 pages when you (the Op) can misinterpret my post as referring to "abandoing God" when it's so obvious it's referring to a historical church (e.g. RCC). FWIW there is now "Charismatic Catholic Renewal" proceeding as a Faith group within the RCC.

Maybe it's about time for the Op to sum up his thread to a "meaningful" conclusion(s).

 

[Clare73]

Don't have time to reply now, but when i do i will. Thank you.

Sometimes i come fashionably late to a party

And oh, thou art so fashionable!

so want to ask, are you discussing what the book of Romans says about the vine? I be back to check with more time

No, we're discussing Jn 15.

 

[Clare73]

Yes I agree only believers can be in Christ. He specifically said in verse 2 “Every branch in Me”. Clare says some of the branches who are joined to Christ are tares that were planted by satan. She’s trying to incorporate the parable of the wheat and tares into the passage because she doesn’t want to admit that Jesus taught that believers can fall away.

Comprehension problem regarding posts #576, #607?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Comprehension problem regarding posts #576, #607?

No not at all, I summed up exactly what your saying in those posts in the post you quoted when you wrote this reply.

The branches are the kingdom, where both live and dead branches are in the kingdom, just as both wheat and tares are in the kingdom (the field).

No, that is not the point. The point is that they are in the kingdom (branches) of Christ (the vine).
just as the field is the kingdom of Christ, the planter.
And in the kingdom which is Christ's, there are some that abide in him and some that do not,
just as in the kingdom which is Christ's, there is some grain that is wheat and some grain that is tares.

Clare says some of the branches who are joined to Christ are tares that were planted by satan. She’s trying to incorporate the parable of the wheat and tares into the passage because she doesn’t want to admit that Jesus taught that believers can fall away.

Now correct me if I’m wrong here but are you not saying in posts 576 & 607 that the branches that are in Christ that don’t bear fruit are tares?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Maybe i missing something, but to me it is simply laid out. You believe, you remain. You don't believe, you are cut off from Christ. Yet you also see that jews have not been cut off forever. It's a temporary position so that the Gentiles can be grafted in.

More i can say, but short on time.

Millions of Jews have believed in Christ since His ministry. And you’re confusing the olive tree in Romans 11 with the Vine in John 15. The olive tree is not Christ it’s God’s covenant.