SALVATION

[fhansen]

That said, not that this gives us an excuse to sin, we are now slaves of righteousness. He has captured our hearts by his Spirit.

Romans 6

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Yes, but it's still optional whether we remain slaves to righteousness or return to being slaves to sin. Sin will still earn you death while righteousness frees you from that condemnation as Christ gives us that righteousness and so the power now to overcome that sin. And Gal 5, for example, warns us against returning to the flesh. We must remain in Him, walking by the Spirit, and then the deeds of the flesh will not enslave us.

 

[Jo555]

Regardless of who does it, It must be done. And no one who does it God's way will boast.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

I understand what you are saying, yes we have an obligation, but a true believer will fulfill that obligation and are the children of God.

In Romans Paul was also addressing the issue of those that were under the impression that grace gave them an excuse to indulge in sin.

In the NT they often addressed two errors. One is to think they can obtain salvation by works. The other was those that felt they had an excuse to sin because of grace. Both are wrong.

Both are basically disrespecting the finished work of Christ on the cross and there are consequences for that. Both are in error.

 

[fhansen]

I understand what you are saying, yes we have an obligation, but a true believer will fulfill that obligation and are the children of God.

I believe the Bible emphasizes both sides, the encouragement that the Spirit will always be there for us but also the possibility of our not being there with Him. By God's wisdom and at His discretion He desires our participation, cooperation, effort. We must pick up our cross daily, throughout our lives, and no one can predict whether or not they will persevere. We may stray at times but with a change of heart and repentance, the journey should always be forward and upward overall by the end of the day

 

[Jo555]

Yes, but it's still optional whether we remain slaves to righteousness or return to being slaves to sin. Sin will still earn you death while righteousness frees you from that condemnation as Christ gives us that righteousness and so the power now to overcome that sin. And Gal 5, for example, warns us against returning to the flesh. We must remain in Him, walking by the Spirit, and then the deeds of the flesh will not enslave us.

It's all optional, but works does not earn you salvation, grace and faith through Christ does. There is generally a warning after that not to think they can do whatever they want because of grace because they were dealing with two main errors.

 

[Jo555]

It's all optional, but works does not earn you salvation, grace and faith through Christ does. There is generally a warning after that not to think they can do whatever they want because of grace because they were dealing with two main errors.

To add to this, you may also want to go back to Galatians 3 ... But i hear ya, i just, from what i know of scripture, believe a true believer will fulfill that obligation ... Not because of his own works, but because his heart has been arrested by God.

 

[fhansen]

It's all optional, but works does not earn you salvation, grace and faith through Christ does. There is generally a warning after that not to think they can do whatever they want because of grace because they were dealing with two main errors.

Faith opens the door to the life of grace as it opens the door to the life of God. Grace produces righteousness in us or it's not grace at all. And what we do as a result of that free gift and the gift of righteousness that comes with it certainly does count towards eternal life, according to scripture. That's what it means to be under grace and not under the law.

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

This is real righteousness, but one that the law and the prophets can only testify to (Rom 3:22-23) without accomplishing in us. It's the "righteousness of God" that comes through and on the basis of faith in Christ (Phil 3:9). And you can see what happens if we don't do our part, if we don't "invest" this gift in the Parable of the Talents.

 

[Jo555]

To add to this, you may also want to go back to Galatians 3 ... But i hear ya, i just, from what i know of scripture, believe a true believer will fulfill that obligation ... Not because of his own works, but because his heart has been arrested by God.

To add to that, Romans 8:

You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

-If you read on he goes on to mention how nothing will separate us from the love of God ...

Listen, I'm just so happy there is a theological discussion i can follow. I can't even understand what is being said in some of them. I was about to give up, but then i found one i can understand due to the simple language, etc.

 

[AbbaLove]

All right, but IMO and the opinion of the church historically, relationship with God is like any relationship in that we can value it and cultivate and nourish it; we can remain in Him, or we can also abandon it, abandon Him.

"we can remain in Him, or we can also abandon it, abandon Him."​

You are correct that the church's position would in no uncertain words tell a member that they are abandoning (a disappointment) Him when their belief doesn't lineup with church doctrine.

For example, if it's a cessationist church and a longtime faithful member has recently received one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; especially speaking in an "unknown" tongue, the church may even encourage that member to find a church that believes like him/her.

In actuality it's sometimes best to abandon a church for another with faith, fellowship, love that encourages a closer walk with Him.

 

[fhansen]

Listen, I'm just so happy there is a theological discussion i can follow. I can't even understand what is being said in some of them. I was about to give up, but then i found one i can understand due to the simple language, etc.

That's really, really cool. Just try to keep an open mind in any case. I represent the sort of historical, classical view of the Christian faith because I came to believe in it the hard way so to speak-and believe it best aligns with Scripture. Others will have views more similar to your own but there is quite a variety out there with different nuances. Either way for myself I try to explain things as clearly as I can. Thanks for contributing

 

[setst777]

Quote it, please. Two things there: 1. Except in the context of Salvation and Regeneration, I don't think I have ever said it was God's choice alone.

According to you, we do not have free will; rather, even man's choices are God causing man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

According to you, there are no choices that we make that are not all caused by God, causing them to be what they are to the point of their condemnation or salvation.

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation.

Mark Quayle said: ... we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

So, go ahead deny, but your quotes are all here for all to see.

2. Even in the context of Predetermination, I don't think I've ever said, "what our minds perceive as our own choices (an allusion) is actually God determining it to happen." I'm not saying that you are lying. I'm guessing that that is what your mind took me to be saying.

In the context of all your previous quotes, any choices we appear to make by ourselves, is an illusion, because God is causing our choices, us controlled by HIS choices.

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: I call God's willed plan, in both its general and specific intentions, God 'decree' or 'decrees'. The general, implicitly, necessarily composed of all the specific details of creation and creation's logical effects/ results. There is logically no difference between what God planned, what God did and what happened/happens/will happen, except in the way our minds must deal with or consider what God determined.

So, go ahead deny, but your quotes are all here for all to see.

This you call "debunk"? I agree with this. I don't believe anything happens from a void. Maybe you read me to say I believed some things happen from a void,

That is a strawman. I, nor has anyone else, ever accused you of believing that anything happens in a void. Rather, that is what YOU are accusing others of believing repeatedly for years. If repeatedly slandering others, accusing them of believing something they do not, is not violation, then out don't know what is.

but my claim is only that those bent on self-determinism think that their decisions come from a void (i.e. either by chance or by self-existence).

Can you quote me any credible evidence that states that self-determinism think their decisions come from a void?

For your education, in essence, self-determinists acknowledge that while external factors can influence decisions, the ultimate choice comes from within the individual. This means that decisions are not made in isolation but are the result of a complex interplay between internal desires and external circumstances.

Yes that refers to the same Spirit that manifests spectacularly in Acts 2. But the Spirit was existent and active in time long before that.

The indwelling (regeneration) of the Spirit to give believers life is a promise of God for the New Covenant in Christ only.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

But notice A. that it relegates "rivers of living water will flow from within them" to already existent Scriptures! This is not only an identification, by what will happen at Pentecost, but a form of grammar use involving the future tense as "contingency" language, thus: If one believes, then rivers of living water will flow from within them. It is not saying that the regeneration, (as you claim the rivers of water are), are temporally post-belief, but only causally. They are contingent on belief.

I never stated or implied that what you are stating in the following:

"It is not saying that the regeneration, (as you claim the rivers of water are), are temporally post-belief, but only causally."

You do believe that regeneration is by the indwelling of the Spirit - I quote you:

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere we read that regeneration is necessarily by the Spirit's Indwelling.

You believe that a sinner must be regenerated (given life) so he can believe.

However, the Scriptures teach that the Spirit (and its regeneration) are by faith - to all who believe, and this New Covenant Promise occurred only after Lord Jesus was glorified.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Therefore, in contrast to what you believe,

The Scriptures teach just the opposite; in that, we are to believe so we may be regenerated (given life) by the indwelling Spirit.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith, and is by the Spirit indwelling us by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Elsewhere we read that regeneration is necessarily by the Spirit's Indwelling. Thus, the Spirit of God takes up permanent residence within the one to whom God chose to show mercy, and faith results, regenerating that person.

The Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

All the necessary "components" (to put it crassly), are there: Indwelling of the Spirit, God's gift of grace, God's gift of faith, by which and through which we are given salvation, and regeneration. All tied together necessarily. This is the work of God, that you believe. The belief is therefore a result, and not a cause, of the Spirit's taking up residence.

The Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

You are skating pretty close to the edge of violating site rules here. Be careful.

Just stating the facts. If facts are a violation, then I am on the wrong board. You believe the Spirit indwelling a person is regeneration so he can believe. In contrast, the Scriptures teach just the opposite; in that, a sinner must believe so the Spirit indwells him (regeneration). That is the truth.

Violations are for various things, like flaming someone or slandering someone, like you repeatedly are doing to those on this board who disagree with you, saying they believe something that they have repeatedly told you they did not believe, and then making strawman attacks off of those slanderous remarks. But violations are not for presenting facts and evidence, and drawing truthful conclusions from such evidence in response to the person we are writing to.

The facts are that the Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Therefore, it all comes down to what you believe in and what you refuse to believe in.

I don't believe what YOU take these Scriptures to be saying. But Scriptures always come first. If you can convince me that your view is correct, concerning these, then I will believe them as you will. But you have a LONG way to go before that happens, I think.

No one can convince anyone who refuses to objectively view the evidence. The Scriptures cannot convince anyone whose mind is already made up to believe only what they assume.

Now notice that phrase at the end of John 5:24 which you quote thus: "...but has passed out of death into life [regeneration]." You seem to think that in John 7:38 the tenses are important to the temporal sequence of causal progression: To you, the person must first believe (apparently from their own integrity or force of will, then they become regenerated. But here in John 5:24 the tenses of the verbs work just the other way around —the person already HAS passed out of death into life!

The Scriptures teach we are to believe so we may be regenerated (given life) - that is the New Covenant in the Spirit

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

 

[setst777]

What is your point with all these? Do these prove works salvation?

Salvation (regeneration of the indwelling Spirit) is by faith, not works.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Romans 3:18 (WEB) We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Galatians 2:16 (WEB) even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Romans 4:2-3 (WEB) 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not toward God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Romans 4:4 Now to him who works, the reward is not counted as grace, but as something owed. 5 But to him who doesn’t work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Romans 4:16 (WEB) 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace, to the end that the promise may be sure to all the offspring

True repentance too, is granted by God, and not ginned up by man's sketchy force of will. That man chooses to do so, is not in question. But where it is from, and how it is made actual, is by God's doing. "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure." (—my emphasis)

God grants all people, Jews and Gentiles, the right to be saved by repentance toward God and faith in Lord Jesus, for God's kind intention is to have mercy on ALL sinners - and ALL have sinned.

Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 (EWEB) 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved

Acts 17:30-31 (WEB) 30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

Acts 13:47 (WEB) 47 For so has the Lord commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you as a light for the Gentiles, that you should bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’ [Isaiah 49:6]

Matthew 22:9-10 (EWEB) 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find [Jews and Gentiles] invite to the wedding feast.’

Acts 10:34-35 (WEB) 34 Peter opened his mouth and said, “Truly I perceive that God doesn’t show favoritism; 35 but in every nation he who fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.

Acts 11:17-18
17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”
18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life!”

Isaiah 54:22 (WEB) Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.

Acts 20:20-21 (WEB) … 20 I didn’t shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, teaching you publicly and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus.

Acts 26:20 (WEB) 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance.

 

[Jo555]

The cutting off that you speak of is a cutting off due to not receiving by grace through faith. Gentiles are warned not to boast in themselves.
Not to think they have done anything to earn this.

Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 11:
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Not sur if this post went through before so I'm posting again because i believe it is very important in understanding the cutting away.

That's really, really cool. Just try to keep an open mind in any case. I represent the sort of historical, classical view of the Christian faith because I came to believe in it the hard way so to speak. Others will have views more similar to your own but there is quite a variety out there with different nuances. Either way for myself I try to explain things as clearly as I can. Thanks for contributing

Thank you for the advice. It's true. There are scriptures that I don't have a full grasp of at present and these discussions help. And, i love a good theological discussion so very happy to come across simplicity. You guys, and gals have been super gracious and great! I see the fruit. Thank you!

 

[fhansen]

"we can remain in Him, or we can also abandon it, abandon Him."​

You are correct that the church's position would in no uncertain words tell a member that they are abandoning (a disappointment) Him when their belief doesn't lineup with church doctrine.

For example, if it's a cessationist church and a longtime faithful member has recently received one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit; especially speaking in an "unknown" tongue, the church may even encourage that member to find a church that believes like him/her.

In actuality it's sometimes best to abandon a church for another with faith, fellowship, love that encourages a closer walk with Him.

Abandoning God means returning to the flesh, to sin. It's generally to value the praise of men and bend to the will of the world over Him and His will. It's to fail to love, to put it another way.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Define free will?

Adam and Eve had "free will" to either obey or not obey God's dir

Can you identify the post where I asked that question? If I remember right, I'm not asking what free will is. I want to know what you mean by it in a certain context, but I don't know what that context is. Clicking on the link you give doesn't bring up the post where I asked it.

 

[setst777]

Mark Quayle said:
Define free will?

Can you identify the post where I asked that question? If I remember right, I'm not asking what free will is. I want to know what you mean by it in a certain context, but I don't know what that context is. Clicking on the link you give doesn't bring up the post where I asked it.

AbbaLove had said the following:

Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.

You replied as follows:

Mark Quayle said:
Define "free" there. It is not Reformed theology, to say that we are able to have salvific faith apart from the work of God.

 

[Jo555]

Mark Quayle said:
Define free will?

Can you identify the post where I asked that question? If I remember right, I'm not asking what free will is. I want to know what you mean by it in a certain context, but I don't know what that context is. Clicking on the link you give doesn't bring up the post where I asked it.

Oh, can i jump in, with fear and trembling ... I see this topic has found it's way in here too.

That's a loaded topic, but i think it would help if we didn't view it as one or the other, as i don't believe that is scriptural, but as a layered or dimensional topic.

Do i have free will. Yes. I can choose to go to mcdonalds or burger king ... As my funds allow.

I can choose to watch the Kardashians or billy graham. I can choose to work on my anger or delay it.

Unless God has a purpose for wanting me to have a big mac instead of a whopper, i am free to choose.

On the matter of living a Godly life or not, the bible is clear that without Christ we don't have the capacity to choose well ... Not because we don't have a choice, but because we are enslaved to sin.

As believers we still have a choice, but we are now arrested unto God by his Spirit.

So in a sense and on one dimension choice is an illusion. The choice is more to show us that of ourselves we do not have the power to choose well.

Can we still sin? As we are growing up in Christ we can make poor choices to a degree, but the fact that we grieve over these things show that we are his.

It is sort of the opposite of being able to keep the law, but still a sinner due to a sinful heart.

The born again Christian can still be tempted to sin, but the reborn heart, or spirit, is Father God's by the indwelling Holy Spirit paid for by the blood of Jesus.

 

[Jo555]

Oh, can i jump in, with fear and trembling ... I see this topic has found it's way in here too.

That's a loaded topic, but i think it would help if we didn't view it as one or the other, as i don't believe that is scriptural, but as a layered or dimensional topic.

Do i have free will. Yes. I can choose to go to mcdonalds or burger king ... As my funds allow.

I can choose to watch the Kardashians or billy graham. I can choose to work on my anger or delay it.

Unless God has a purpose for wanting me to have a big mac instead of a whopper, i am free to choose.

On the matter of living a Godly life or not, the bible is clear that without Christ we don't have the capacity to choose well ... Not because we don't have a choice, but because we are enslaved to sin.

As believers we still have a choice, but we are now arrested unto God by his Spirit.

So in a sense and on one dimension choice is an illusion. The choice is more to show us that of ourselves we do not have the power to choose well.

Can we still sin? As we are growing up in Christ we can make poor choices to a degree, but the fact that we grieve over these things show that we are his.

It is sort of the opposite of being able to keep the law, but still a sinner due to a sinful heart.

The born again Christian can still be tempted to sin, but the reborn heart, or spirit, is Father God's by the indwelling Holy Spirit paid for by the blood of Jesus.

I realize i made this sound frigid. Really, it's about love. We are captivated by his love, and love our neighbors as ourselves. We may not always feel it per say, but his Spirit in us has poured out his love in us.

 

[Jo555]

I realize i made this sound frigid. Really, it's about love. We are captivated by his love, and love our neighbors as ourselves. We may not always feel it per say, but his Spirit in us has poured out his love in us.

I have one more ... Your heart will bend towards what it loves. There is no choice, it's about the spiritual atmosphere of love or lust.

The heart does not choose, it is won over.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Quote it, please. Two things there: 1. Except in the context of Salvation and Regeneration, I don't think I have ever said it was God's choice alone.

According to you, we do not have free will; rather, even man's choices are God causing man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Wrong. That statement depends entirely on what is meant by free will.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

A correction: I should have said, "Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as First Cause, [not first caused] caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices. Now if you can show me how God choosing precludes man choosing in some way besides just declaring it to be so, have at it.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

According to you, there are no choices that we make that are not all caused by God, causing them to be what they are to the point of their condemnation or salvation.

That's true enough. Now, explain how that means, explicitly or implicitly, that man does not choose, besides just the assertion that it does not.

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation.

Mark Quayle said: ... we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

So, go ahead deny, but your quotes are all here for all to see.

True enough. Now it falls to you to show how those quotes deny that man chooses.

In the context of all your previous quotes, any choices we appear to make by ourselves, is an illusion, because God is causing our choices, us controlled by HIS choices.

False. They are no illusion, but of real, even eternal, consequences. I don't know how you consider God's choosing and causing of our choices, and our actual choosing, to be mutually exclusive. We could not even choose at all, had not God established our choosing! And THAT is causation.

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: I call God's willed plan, in both its general and specific intentions, God 'decree' or 'decrees'. The general, implicitly, necessarily composed of all the specific details of creation and creation's logical effects/ results. There is logically no difference between what God planned, what God did and what happened/happens/will happen, except in the way our minds must deal with or consider what God determined.

So, go ahead deny, but your quotes are all here for all to see.

Yes they appear here very nicely, and I'm almost proud that what I said was worth your trouble to search out and quote to such an extent. What I don't see is how they deny real choice on the part of the creature (man).

That is a strawman. I, nor has anyone else, ever accused you of believing that anything happens in a void. Rather, that is what YOU are accusing others of believing repeatedly for years.

That is what it looked like to me, that you represented. You said:
setst777 said:
Nothing happens in a void. All choices each of us makes are because something happened. If we believe in Jesus as Lord, it’s because someone first preached the Gospel to us. There is no void where we make choices. That is all nonsense.

So what is the nonsense that I said, that you have refuted with what I quote there?

But, yes indeed, I do accuse people of that. I don't know how else, except by attributing self-existence to the creature, they can assume libertarian free will by/or/in the creature to make sense.

Can you quote me any credible evidence that states that self-determinism think their decisions come from a void?

"Quote" you evidence? Why? I can show you evidence. It's right in front of you daily. Those insistent on self-determinism think God did not cause the creature's decisions. So what did? And how did that happen? Are there no previous causes impinging on the choices? No? Then you must think they simply come from a void. Either that, or you think you are an independent, uncaused, first causer. Take your pick.

Above you said, "All choices each of us makes are because something happened." And I agree completely with that. So what happened? And how did it happen? And what caused it to happen? Now follow that sequence all the way back to First Cause —God himself. This is not complicated.

For your education, in essence, self-determinists acknowledge that while external factors can influence decisions, the ultimate choice comes from within the individual. This means that decisions are not made in isolation but are the result of a complex interplay between internal desires and external circumstances.

Of course the ultimate choice comes from within the individual! Where have I said differently? —And why does that individual always choose whatever he chooses? Because it is what he wants most at any given moment. And why does he want that most? Because that is what he is influenced, one way or the other, most to want. Causation. It doesn't happen out of a void, but by your desires that come from within. I insist on it, and don't deny it at all. It is only YOUR construction that claims God's causation and man's choice are mutually exclusive.

I cut this off here because it was more than the limit available per post.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The indwelling (regeneration) of the Spirit to give believers life is a promise of God for the New Covenant in Christ only.

Your point? How is this relevant to the argument so far, as to whether the Creator's choice precludes the Creature's choice? Seems like a red herring to me.

John 7:37-39 (WEB) 37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

You believe that a sinner must be regenerated (given life) so he can believe.

Actually, so he WILL believe. He will not until he is raised from death to life (Eph 2). That is regeneration.

But I see already, you have strayed from the argument onto a side issue —libertarian free will as applies to belief. Ok, I'll play.

In contrast:

The Scriptures teach just the opposite; in that, we are to believe so we may be regenerated (given life).

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Now it falls to you to show how those passages demonstrate that regeneration follows a decision to believe.

The Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

I'm sorry, but these do not say that regeneration is a result of believing. Also, be careful to define correctly what is meant by "receive the Spirit".

Co-incidence is not causation. The same Spirit caused both salvific faith and regeneration. They are both, mutually, necessary, and the faith that saves is not generated by the creature, but is worked inside of the person by God himself, the Spirit of God. Apart from that work of God, the person is still at enmity with God and unable to please God. His 'faith' is the same as any other faith, and not saving faith.

The Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

The Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Already dealt with above.

Just stating the facts. You believe the Spirit indwelling a person is regeneration so he can believe.

He cannot believe without the gift of faith. He will not believe, without regeneration, without the Spirit within changing him from death to life —but I'm repeating myself. I don't know how in the world you can suppose yourself to be of such integrity, knowledge, wisdom, force of will, and devotion to God in and of your self to keep what you have committed unto him. This is not something mortally possible, but only by the power of God.

In contrast, the Scriptures teach just the opposite; in that, a sinner must believe so the Spirit indwells him (regeneration). That is the truth; so, face yourself and think.

The Spirit will only indwell a sinner by faith in Lord Jesus - regeneration (indwelling of the Spirit) is by faith

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:14 (WEB) 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Therefore, it all comes down to what you believe in and what you refuse to believe in.

Tell me something new. (BTW, the same applies to you.)

No one can convince you. The Scriptures cannot convince you. Your mind is already made up to believe only what you assume.

God can convince anyone he chooses. But so far, I am convinced that salvation is entirely by grace, and not by MY ability to decide.

The Scriptures teach we are to believe so we may be regenerated (given life) - that is the New Covenant in the Spirit

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

The Promise of God to Make Alive is by faith

Galatians 3:21-22 (WEB) 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could Make Alive, most certainly righteousness would have been of the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned all things under sin, so that The Promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

We've already dealt with this. You are repeating yourself.