SALVATION

[Jo555]

The scriptures are clear we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. A change in lifestyle and good works are a result of that.

There are times we may still sin, but the blood of Jesus has us covered.

There are still issues we may still have to deal with, like soul attachments that need to be broken, but that doesn't mean we won't be saved.

If someone repeatedly continues to live a lifestyle of sin without Godly sorrow, i would wonder if they ever truly believed and received God's free gift of salvation bought by the blood of Jesus.

I have also felt that at times people profess to believe, but it may be more due to human effort rather than the Holy Spirit working.

Some may have accepted Christ due to fear of hell, or something else that was not based on Holy Spirit drawing them. Not everyone that professes to believe does.

 

[fhansen]

Can you demonstrate this from scripture without overlaying your notions on top of it?

I know it because I wouldn’t need a bible to inform me of anything if I didn’t need information by which to decide. I know it because the bible poses a giant “IF” from beginning to end: If you eat of the tree, If you chose good over evil, life over death, If you obey my commandments, If you come to Me, If you believe in Me, If you remain in Me, If you remain in His kindness, If you put my words into practice, If you put to death the deeds of the flesh, If you are holy, If you are pure of heart, If you wash your robes…

The NC is all about one thing first before all else: becoming united with God in a union begun with faith and ultimately bound by love. That’s our very purpose, what we are meant for, what we were created for. And that’s what Jesus came to accomplish. That is our justice, our righteousness, and therefore our salvation; true righteousness and salvation are inseparable. From that state, righteousness flows, like sap through a vine. Man is not right, existing in a state of rectitude, unless he exists in a state of communion with God.

Our choice in the matter is made frequently, with every obedience and submission to him, SUBSEQUENT to him having transformed us from death to life IN HIM. He doesn't need our choice in order to decide whether or not to give us life. Until he is our life, WE WILL NOT CHOOSE HIM. We are until then, at enmity with him. Do you not know scripture for those points?

This is backwards, putting the cart ahead of the horse. God doesn’t need us to even exist for that matter. But He wants us to, and, yes, He wants us to choose life just like He told us to. That’s why He didn’t make the choice for us at the beginning or at any time since then. And He’s not suddenly changing the rules and saying, “I decided to just make some of you obey now.” He wants our participation. He knows we need revelation and grace in order to get that response from us but the one thing He does not want to do is to do it all for us. A good parent doesn’t expect their child to be perfectly responsible all at once but seeks to draw them into increasingly making and owning right choices. So that they’ll be something rather than nothing; that’s the nature of love. And to be something, like Him, is for us to love, as He does. That’s the ultimate in holiness and maturity and responsibility; love is both a gift of grace and a choice to embrace and express that gift. It cannot even happen unless we freely participate in it-without it being a bogus love: not a true reflection of His image. God is perfect; we need to come to appreciate and worship that perfection, that highest Good, to make it our model, to put it above any other “values” that satan and the world offer.

So grace is not about Him suddenly completely transforming us but rather about drawing us increasingly to that point. One ancient saint said that we're not even truly human yet in this life, just sort of still in gestation, and won’t be complete until the next life. Either way, man is sort of like a flower that can’t possibly orchestrate its own blossoming, but can thwart that blossoming. But to the extent that he doesn't, to the extent that he responds to grace and thwarts his pride and humbles himself before God instead, to put it another way, he begins to attain his purpose, his “telos”. And the more he does so- the more he draws near to God, IOW-the more perfect his righteousness becomes and so the surer is his calling and election, his salvation. Salvation is much more than just stocking heaven with some people and stocking hell with the rest.

Ultimate and complete perfection and holiness won't come until the next life but that is the path we're to be on in this life. Until then we can still fail, we can still turn back away from God, we can still choose death.

 

[fhansen]

The scriptures are clear we are saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. A change in lifestyle and good works are a result of that.

Scripture is clear that we're now enabled by the Spirit to live a righteous life, and that we must do so in order to gain eternal life, but that we can still turn back away from it, we can fail to appreciate the love and work of Christ, the "knowledge of Christ", we can fail to remain in Him and become branches worthy of being cut off and burned instead, we can fail to persevere. We must remain in the Vine or we will have no life. And if we're living unrighteously, then we're not remaining in the Vine.

Salvation and righteousness, with righteous living accompanying that, are inseparable from each other.

 

[AbbaLove]

Scripture is clear that we're now enabled by the Spirit to live a righteous life, and that we must do so in order to gain eternal life, but that we can still turn back away from it, we can fail to appreciate the love and work of Christ, instead, we can fail to persevere.

"we can fail to remain in Him and become unworthy branches being cut off and burned".

More than a few Spiritually born again / renewed of mind/soul Christians would contend that a truly Spiritually "born again" Christian (Titus 3:5) can't be cut-off.

Where in the NC is it made clear that a mature truly "born again" Christian can be cut-off and burned (not in Titus 3:5) ...

He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,​

Salvation and righteousness, with righteous living accompanying that, are inseparable from each other. (definition of a "mature" Christian)

No "mature" Christian would disagree ...only a nominal-lukewarm believer.

 

[fhansen]

More than a few Spiritually born again / renewed of mind/soul Christians would contend that a truly Spiritually "born again" Christian (Titus 3:5) can't be cut-off.

If one wishes, for some reason, to define born again as different from someone who has simply come to believe in Christ and been changed by it, then we have, among many warnings and admonishments to believers, passages such as:

​

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” 2 Pet 2:20-22

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6:4-6

Either way, probably the single best evidence that we're born again, that we're children of God, is by our love, of Him and neighbor, born out by our actions.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Do not confuse insulting with plainly stating the facts.

You explained that it was not our choices, but God's alone; in that, what our minds perceive as our own choices (an allusion) is actually God determining it to happen.

Quote it, please. Two things there: 1. Except in the context of Salvation and Regeneration, I don't think I have ever said it was God's choice alone. 2. Even in the context of Predetermination, I don't think I've ever said, "what our minds perceive as our own choices (an allusion) is actually God determining it to happen." I'm not saying that you are lying. I'm guessing that that is what your mind took me to be saying.

Mark Quayle said: I call God's willed plan, in both its general and specific intentions, God 'decree' or 'decrees'. The general, implicitly, necessarily composed of all the specific details of creation and creation's logical effects/ results. There is logically no difference between what God planned, what God did and what happened/happens/will happen, except in the way our minds must deal with or consider what God determined.

Mark Quayle said: For further proof, consider that if even one thing is predetermined, all things upon which it is contingent are also predetermined. And everything affects everything.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).



You keep repeating the same error in all your discussions that those who disagree with you believe that ‘our choices all happen from a void.’

That strawman of yours has been debunked continuously; yet, you blindly state the same nonsense.

Ok. Quote me. What I have said is that those insisting on a self-determinism worldview are invoking either chance, or self-existence. Perhaps I have said it poorly and again you took me to be saying something I did not mean. I will easily admit that I have presented one or the other of those views alone, in an attempt at brevity to make a point. I have often said that the self-determinist believes (whether he knows it or not) that his decisions ("choices") happen from a void. I have also said, probably more often, that nobody's choices actually happen from a void.

Nothing happens in a void. All choices each of us makes are because something happened. If we believe in Jesus as Lord, it’s because someone first preached the Gospel to us. There is no void where we make choices. That is all nonsense.

This you call "debunk"? I agree with this. I don't believe anything happens from a void. Maybe you read me to say I believed some things happen from a void, but my claim is only that those bent on self-determinism think that their decisions come from a void (i.e. either by chance or by self-existence).

God explains in his Word how he acts toward us, and God holds us responsible for our choices - either refusing his grace, or believing in him. That is why God is righteous in all His judgments.

I just accept what God states. You want to add your own doctrine between the lines, but God speaks plainly, and God judges righteously.

Don't fool yourself. None of us knows a pure Gospel intellectually. You, I suppose, wishing to defend God's love, or maybe his consistency of demeanor, go to the illogical extreme of claiming (in effect) that what God began, he leaves up to chance or to the self-existent, self-compelling, will of 'free' agents —mere creatures all.

What you believe is opposed to the Gospel as Lord Jesus taught it, and just as I have shown.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

Yes that refers to the same Spirit that manifests spectacularly in Acts 2. But the Spirit was existent and active in time long before that.

But notice A. that it relegates "rivers of living water will flow from within them" to already existent Scriptures! This is not only an identification, by what will happen at Pentecost, but a form of grammar use involving the future tense as "contingency" language, thus: If one believes, then rivers of living water will flow from within them. It is not saying that the regeneration, (as you claim the rivers of water are), are temporally post-belief, but only causally. They are contingent on belief.

Also understand B. that in the descriptions of regeneration in Scripture, as in John 7:38 you quoted, such language as "rivers of living water" are resultant to, or necessarily accompanying regeneration, and not the regeneration itself.

Elsewhere we read that regeneration is necessarily by the Spirit's Indwelling. Not to say that it does not continue to be, but I am saying that it necessarily is an immediate result of the moment or point of the Spirit's "moving into" the person upon whom God chose to show mercy. (And also this is not to say that the Spirit can't do what it wants within any person, for God's purposes, without regenerating them.)

Thus, the Spirit of God takes up permanent residence within the one to whom God chose to show mercy, and faith results, regenerating that person. All the necessary "components" (to put it crassly), are there: Indwelling of the Spirit, God's gift of grace, God's gift of faith, by which and through which we are given salvation, and regeneration. All tied together necessarily. This is the work of God, that you believe. The belief is therefore a result, and not a cause, of the Spirit's taking up residence.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

You do not believe these Scriptures; therefore, you do not believe Lord Jesus who spoke those words.

You are skating pretty close to the edge of violating site rules here. Be careful.

I don't believe what YOU take these Scriptures to be saying. But Scriptures always come first. If you can convince me that your view is correct, concerning these, then I will believe them as you will. But you have a LONG way to go before that happens, I think.

Now notice that phrase at the end of John 5:24 which you quote thus: "...but has passed out of death into life [regeneration]." You seem to think that in John 7:38 the tenses are important to the temporal sequence of causal progression: To you, the person must first believe (apparently from their own integrity or force of will, then they become regenerated. But here in John 5:24 the tenses of the verbs work just the other way around —the person already HAS passed out of death into life!

When I say that regeneration, salvation and salvific faith are generated by the Spirit of God alone, I don't mean that we are not active in believing. We most definitely are —in fact, I insist that we are active in believing and even in choosing to believe— but salvific faith ("believes", in John 5:24) is the work of the Spirit, and not of the person believing. We do so, because it is [already] so, done in us.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

God describes His Sovereign actions, and they are totally righteous, no favoritism or discrimination.

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) 3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to {{{repentance}}}? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return
from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

Ezekiel 18:25-32 (WEB)
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust?
Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.
29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.
Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent and live!"

What is your point with all these? Do these prove works salvation?

True repentance too, is granted by God, and not ginned up by man's sketchy force of will. That man chooses to do so, is not in question. But where it is from, and how it is made actual, is by God's doing. "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do according to His good pleasure." (—my emphasis)

 

[Clare73]

The vine is an illustration of those who are joined to Christ which is what the entire audience of this message was composed of. The wheat and tares is an illustration of the church. Heres the big problem with your interpretation. The branches will absolutely be saved if they remain in the vine, the tares will not be saved simply by remaining in the church. So these two parables do not represent the same illustration. One is in reference to the church the other is in reference to those who are joined to Christ.

I repeat. . .explained in post #528.

But Jesus was specifically speaking to believers in John 15. There was no one present in the upper room with them except Jesus and His faithful 11 apostles. So according to your theology that consequence given in John 15:6 is an impossibility for them which makes it a useless statement. If God is controlling their will then consequences for believers is completely useless.

Addressed in posts #499, #541.

They’re IN CHRIST. No one who is IN CHRIST IS DEAD.

The parables are about the kingdom.
In the parables both wheat and tares are in the kingdom.
The vine in the parable produces branches which are the kingdom, where both live and dead branches are in the kingdom.

Wrong, because He specifically said that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him and no one does that from birth. I already explained this. If someone is not hearing His voice and following His teachings then they’re NOT one of His sheep.

Right. . .his sheep must be born again first, they are not born with eternal life. . .goats are never born again.

The Vine is Christ not the kingdom. The tares don’t get removed from the kingdom until judgement day, the branches get cut off from Christ before judgement day for not bearing fruit.

The branches are the kingdom, as is the field, both containing spiritually dead professing members, which are separated (cut-off, burned) at the Judgment.

for not bearing fruit. Verse 1 makes it absolutely crystal clear beyond any shadow of a doubt who the Vine is.

““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes, Jesus is distinguishing between the vine as a symbol of Israel, the kingdom, and himself, the "true" vine which produces fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The vine is the kingdom, as is the field, both containing spiritually dead professing members, which are separated (cut-off, burned) at the Judgment.

Wrong again because those who remain in Christ receive salvation. The tares remain in the field and don’t receive salvation. The branches have the ability to bear fruit and remain in Christ.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, Jesus is distinguishing between the vine as a symbol of Israel or of the kingdom, and himself, the "true" vine.

No again because the branches that are cut off for not bearing fruit are IN CHRIST. “IN ME” that’s what Jesus said. They are joined to the True Vine. You’re saying that tares are in Christ. That’s blasphemy.

 

[fhansen]

Most all would agree that faith is a supernatural gift of grace that enables us to believe in truths that we cannot otherwise believe on our own. Faith is always intrinsically connected to knowledge. It can be seen as the experience and realization of reconciliation between man and God, and this is a matter of justice; it's the right thing for man to be reconciled with and united to God. Anyway, the following is an accurate quote:

“Thomas Aquinas believed that faith is a foretaste of the “beatific vision”, which is a knowledge that surpasses both faith and reason.”

That's by no means an exhaustive definition by him but in any case the beatific vision is the immediate, direct, knowledge of God, to see Him, to know Him as per 1 Cor 13:12. It's a matter of sheer grace and we'll fully know Him in that way only in heaven. That's our ultimate purpose. He's the object and fulfillment of all human desire, all that we could ever want, the only thing that can truly satisfy us, creating ineffable, unending peace, happiness and exaltation within. To fully know Him is to fully love Him. And so that knowledge begins in this life with faith being the beginning of that relationship, based on that knowledge.

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

 

[Clare73]

Wrong again because those who remain in Christ receive salvation. The tares remain in the field and don’t receive salvation. The branches have the ability to bear fruit and remain in Christ.

No again because the branches that are cut off for not bearing fruit are IN CHRIST. “IN ME” that’s what Jesus said. They are joined to the True Vine. You’re saying that tares are in Christ. That’s blasphemy.

See post #567.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Right. . .his sheep must be born again first. . .goats are never born again.

See post #557.

See post #558.

Post 557 is my post. Post 558 is a post from David

 

[Clare73]

Post 557 is my post. Post 558 is a post from David

Corrected. . .make that post #567 in both cases.

 

[AbbaLove]

Define free will?

Adam and Eve had "free will" to either obey or not obey God's directive to not eat/touch the forbidden fruit from the tree in the middle of the Garden ...

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘you must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”​

2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden,​

3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”​

4“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman.​

5 “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”​

Did God never-ever want Adam to know the difference between doing good and doing evil(sin)? If so why then did God make the serpent more crafty than any other animal? Why did God even allow the crafty devious serpent in the Garden to tempt Eve and Adam?

Was knowing the difference between good and evil the only possible way for mankind to receive SALVATION ... by knowing the difference between unrighteousness and righteousness with actions of "good works" Ephesians 2:10 ...

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for "good works', which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.​

Are not "good works" only possible with the indwelling influence of the Holy Spirit abiding in us and us abiding in Him.

It was the prostitute Rahab's "free will" by which she hid the spies choosing to believe in the God of Israel instead of the gods of the canaanites? As a prostitute she apparently had enuf knowledge/experience to know that the gods of the Canannites were as devious as the so-called ?devout? men that visited her.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Right. . .his sheep must be born again first. . .goats are never born again.

See post #567.

See post #567.

Well here’s post 567

The vine in the parable is the kingdom.
In the parables both wheat and tares are in the kingdom

Yes. . .all the sheep have to be born again (regenerated), they are not born with eternal life.

Unless that cutting off is judgment day.

The vine is the kingdom, as is the field, both containing spiritually dead professing members, which are separated (cut-off, burned) at the Judgment.

Yes, Jesus is distinguishing between the vine as a symbol of Israel or of the kingdom, and himself, the "true" vine.

I repeat. . .explained in post #528.

Addressed in post #499, #541.

How does this address my post below?

No again because the branches that are cut off for not bearing fruit are IN CHRIST. “IN ME” that’s what Jesus said. They are joined to the True Vine. You’re saying that tares are in Christ. That’s blasphemy.

I AM THE TRUE VINE, EVERY BRANCH IN ME. So your argument is just you making a claim THAT DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS WHAT THE PASSAGE WERE DISCUSSING SAYS? Should we add the book of Clare to the scriptures so we can quote your claims as scripture? Just because you say that the vine is the kingdom doesn’t make it so. Jesus specifically told us exactly who the Vine is.

 

[Clare73]

But you’re not agreeing because you’re saying that the Vine represents the church not Christ.
““I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
The Vine is Jesus Christ, not the church. Everyone who remains in Christ will be saved, not everyone who remains in the church will be saved. You’re trying to dismiss the evidence in the parable of the Vine by implying that the branches that are cut off are represented as tares in the parable of the wheat and tares but they’re not because the branches of the Vine have the ability to abide in Christ and the ability to bear fruit because they are joined to Christ. Tares do not have either of these abilities because they were planted by the enemy not by The Father. The branches are joined to Christ BY THE FATHER because He is the Vinedresser. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them so branches cannot be joined to Christ by the enemy. So you are NOT agreeing, you’re ignoring the details of the parables that set them apart.

Well here’s post 567
How does this address my post below?
I AM THE TRUE VINE, EVERY BRANCH IN ME. So your argument is just you making a claim THAT DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS WHAT THE PASSAGE WERE DISCUSSING SAYS? Should we add the book of Clare to the scriptures so we can quote your claims as scripture? Just because you say that the vine is the kingdom doesn’t make it so. Jesus specifically told us exactly who the Vine is.

The branches are the kingdom, where both live and dead branches are in the kingdom, just as both wheat and tares are in the kingdom (the field).

 

[Jo555]

Scripture is clear that we're now enabled by the Spirit to live a righteous life, and that we must do so in order to gain eternal life, but that we can still turn back away from it, we can fail to appreciate the love and work of Christ, the "knowledge of Christ", we can fail to remain in Him and become branches worthy of being cut off and burned instead, we can fail to persevere. We must remain in the Vine or we will have no life. And if we're living unrighteously, then we're not remaining in the Vine.

Salvation and righteousness, with righteous living accompanying that, are inseparable from each ot

The cutting off that you speak of is a cutting off due to not receiving by grace through faith. Gentiles are warned not to boast in themselves.
Not to think they have done anything to earn this.

Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 11:
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

[fhansen]

I have also felt that at times people profess to believe, but it may be more due to human effort rather than the Holy Spirit working.

Some may have accepted Christ due to fear of hell, or something else that was not based on Holy Spirit drawing them. Not everyone that professes r


The cutting off that you speak of is a cutting off due to not receiving by grace through faith. Gentiles are warned not to boast in themselves.
Not to think they have done anything to earn this.

Romans 9:
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 11:
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

All right, but IMO and the opinion of the church historically, relationship with God is like any relationship un that we can value it and cultivate and nourish it; we can remain in Him, or we can also abandon it, abandon Him.

 

[fhansen]

The cutting off that you speak of is a cutting off due to not receiving by grace through faith. Gentiles are warned not to boast in themselves.
Not to think they have done anything to earn this.

Regardless of who does it, It must be done. And no one who does it God's way will boast.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

 

[Jo555]

That said, not that this gives us an excuse to sin, we are now slaves of righteousness. He has captured our hearts by his Spirit.

Romans 6

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.