SALVATION

[setst777]

Can you reject the grace of God in giving you your first birth? No, not even if you commit suicide, you cannot reject your birth. It happened to you by God's choosing to create you. Neither can you reject your second birth. Though you may do all you can to work against it, and ruin your life, you cannot change the fact that God chose you for his, and changed your very nature, and gave you faith by which you are saved.

That is not a Biblical position. The new birth (spiritual life) is by the Spirit dwelling in us.

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit dwells in us to give us life by faith in Lord Jesus – the new birth is by faith:

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

A sinner, after hearing the Gospel (Romans 10:17-18) with the conviction of the Spirit (John 16:8) can refuse the Gospel Call and resist the Spirit, and so remain lost.

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) Or do you take for granted the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12]
7 To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life;
8 But to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?

 

[Mark Quayle]

And yet that's a bit redundant, isn't it? Yes, the elect are the elect, but that doesn't mean we can know perfectly who they are, who will persevere and who will not. Also, I don't believe that God wants any to perish.

True, we don't know who they are for sure. We can be fooled, even when our spirit accepts them as brothers.

As for what God wants, it is rather obvious from Scripture that there are at least two ways to use the idea of "God wanting". Christ did not "want" separation from his Father, and to take our punishment. If there was any other way to accomplish what he knew needed to be done, he would have preferred that. Nevertheless, he "wanted" what his Father "wanted" —what they had agreed on from the foundation of the world.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We know we are born-again Christians by remaining in "The Faith," which is manifested in renouncing sin, and a commitment to a sanctified life onto righteousness and love; for that is the only faith by which the Spirit will indwell anyone to give life (Acts 5:32).

Romans 6:1-5 (WEB) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death; so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (WEB) Finally then, brothers, we beg and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, that you abound more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8-9 (EWEB) Writing to the Church in Galatia 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let us [Paul includes himself] not be weary in doing good, for we [Paul includes himself] will reap in due season, if we [Paul includes himself] do not give up.

Apparently you didn't pick up on the fact that my question was rhetorical. But, ok.

You have it backwards, concerning faith. Faith does not invoke the Spirit's indwelling. Faith is the direct result of the Spirit's indwelling. This is no man-ginned-up force of will. This is the work of God. Only God has this power in himself.

 

[setst777]

Apparently you didn't pick up on the fact that my question was rhetorical. But, ok.

You have it backwards, concerning faith. Faith does not invoke the Spirit's indwelling. Faith is the direct result of the Spirit's indwelling. This is no man-ginned-up force of will. This is the work of God. Only God has this power in himself.

Are you saying God's Word has it backwards, and you got it right?

We don't pass out of spiritual death onto spiritual life so we can believe, but because we do believe.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:40 (WEB) Yet you will not come to me, that you may have life.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

The Spirit does not indwell us to give us life so we can believe, but because we do believe.

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {{{through faith}}}.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

The Spirit will not indwell anyone with just any kind of faith; rather, such faith must manifest in a commitment to renounce the old life of serving sinful lusts, and then, to obey Lord Jesus.

Acts 5:32 (WEB) 32 We are his witnesses of these things; and so also is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
John 14:15-16 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:15-16 (WEB) 15 If you love me, keep my commandments. 16 I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, that he may be with you forever: 17 the Spirit of truth

John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

So, of course, we cannot be saved apart from God. But that DOES NOT mean that He does not wish us to participate in His work, for our highest good. If the whole point of salvation is that God simply must all-at-once so completely regenerate and change us such that we will choose only one way, rightly, He would never have let men kind fall to begin with. But He did, so that we might experience this fallen world where the Master's gone, a world where sin/evil are directly, viscerally, experienced- or known-daily, and where corruption/death draw us inescapably to their inevitable end, threatening our annihilation.

Who hear has said or even implied that God does not wish us to participate in His work?

Here God, by his grace, also reveals Himself and His will and so informs and prompts and coaxes and even moves us towards Himself but without doing the one thing that you insist on, which is a complete overhaul in order to outright cause us to choose only one way. This world has a reason and purpose, it's a schoolhouse and so another aspect of His grace, in which we may learn for ourselves of the utter depravity of being apart from God so that when He knocks on our door we may be all the more ready to open it and to allow Him in, and to keep it open as we remain in Him. It's a journey, and one that we can jump ship on at any time. But if we don't, we will be among the elect. We're here to learn: "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

I have not insisted on a "complete overhaul". And I know of nobody who even nearly believes the way I do, who also thinks that the 'old man' in us is no longer active in any of us during this temporal life. The "complete overhaul" won't happen until we see him as he is. But we are transformed from death to life, and that is a complete transformation. The Life is real because the faith by which we are saved is a gift by the indwelling Spirit of God, and not of man's derivation. It is not our works that upholds the reality of this transformation. It is God himself who "inhabits that transformation" (for lack of an easier way to describe it).

Let me ask you this. Do you think you add to God's work by your obedience and works?

 

[setst777]

Who hear has said or even implied that God does not wish us to participate in His work?

How can you say God wishes us to participate in his work when you believe just the opposite - that God "fore-Causes," "intentionally causing," and "determines" the choices of every person, whether directly or indirectly?

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation. "Has to", as you put it, meaning that it is logically necessary —not that God is constrained by his creation to do anything he would not otherwise do.

Mark Quayle said: I spoke according to your hypothetical construction, "God...creat[ing] us to think or act according to his plans", as far as cause-and-effect, that theoretically, (though the chains are so long and involved that we could not trace them all the way back), we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: For further proof, consider that if even one thing is predetermined, all things upon which it is contingent are also predetermined. And everything affects everything.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Correct. . .warnings are one of the ways God preserves those of true faith (the elect).

So what you’re saying is that the consequences that Jesus spoke of in verse 6 were never a real possibility because no matter how hard they tried they couldn’t possibly fail to abide in Christ because God wouldn’t ever allow them to which makes the whole message useless.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Did nothing Jesus spoke only to his apostles apply to the body of Christ?

Scripture often speaks of professors (not possessors) as in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom (Mt 13, Jn 8:30-31, 44, Gal 5:4, Heb 6:4-6, 10:29, 2 Pe 1:9, 2:20-22, Lk 8:13).

Correct. . .warnings are one of the ways God preserves those of true faith (the elect).

You skipped post 493

There’s a distinct difference between the tares in the field and the branches on the Vine. The tares in the field can’t bear fruit because they were planted by the enemy, the branches on the Vine will bear much fruit if they remain attached to Him because they were attached to the Vine by The Father. The difference is that the Vine is nurturing the branches. The tares aren’t being nurtured because don’t believe. The Vine isn’t an illustration of the church, it’s an illustration exclusively of believers. Furthermore tares aren’t guaranteed to bear fruit if they remain in the church and they’re destined to be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned regardless of whether or not they remain in the church. So there is a huge difference between the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the Vine.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That is not a Biblical position. The new birth (spiritual life) is by the Spirit dwelling in us.

Strangely enough, I am saying that very thing! The new birth is not by human decision, but by the Spirit dwelling in us!

Romans 8:9-10 (WEB) 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his. 10 If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

The Spirit dwells in us to give us life by faith in Lord Jesus – the new birth is by faith:

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

A sinner, after hearing the Gospel (Romans 10:17-18) with the conviction of the Spirit (John 16:8) can refuse the Gospel Call and resist the Spirit, and so remain lost.

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) Or do you take for granted the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God. 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12]
7 To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life;
8 But to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Acts 7:51-57 (WEB) 51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do. 52 Which of the prophets didn’t your fathers persecute?

Read all those again, maybe a few times. Your scripture quotes are proving MY point! All I find wrong with what you say above is that you attribute faith and rebirth, in some strange way, to the work of man and not to God. You conclude that God can't do what he set out to do from the beginning, except in response to what man decides.

Boy! Good thing God could see down the corridors of time who would respond to the gospel with true faith so that he could know whom to choose to create for his own particular purposes!

 

[setst777]

Strangely enough, I am saying that very thing! The new birth is not by human decision, but by the Spirit dwelling in us!

The only point we agree on is that being Born Again is by the Spirit dwelling in us.

Read all those again, maybe a few times. Your scripture quotes are proving MY point! All I find wrong with what you say above is that you attribute faith and rebirth, in some strange way, to the work of man and not to God. You conclude that God can't do what he set out to do from the beginning, except in response to what man decides.

I attribute nothing to anyone; rather, I leave the attributing to God's Word.

You believe we must be indwelt by the Spirit so we can have life and believe.
The Scriptures teach that we must believe so we can be indwelt by the Spirit and have life.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

You believe that the Spirit indwells us so we can believe.
The Scriptures teach that we believe first so the Spirit will indwell us.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation - in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {{{through faith}}}.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

You believe we cannot believe unless the Spirit indwells us first - regeneration.
The Scriptures teach that we must believe so the Spirit indwells us - regeneration.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

Boy! Good thing God could see down the corridors of time who would respond to the gospel with true faith so that he could know whom to choose to create for his own particular purposes!

What a shame I have to remind you of what you believe.

And what you believe is opposed to the Gospel as Lord Jesus taught it, and just as I have shown.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

You do not believe these Scriptures; therefore, you do not believe Lord Jesus who spoke those words.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

 

[fhansen]

Christ did not "want" separation from his Father, and to take our punishment.

As to salvation, God either wants all to be saved or He doesn't. By giving the gift of free will He's saying that, for His purposes and according to His wisdom, our choice in the matter is so important to Him that He won't ultimately interfere even, though He obviously could.

 

[AbbaLove]

Strangely enough, I am saying that very thing! The new birth is not by human decision, but by the Spirit dwelling in us!

Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.

Was the Holy Spirit previusly prompting those seeking Jesus to the point where they finally come to a place (e.g. altar call), and cry out inviting Jesus into their heart?

Was its Abraham's decision to slay his son or was Abraham being obedient as led by the Holy Spirit and not his own choice?

Was it Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit? So it's our choice to sin, but it's God's choice who will be "born again" and stop sinning. God informed Adam that his sin was his own choice so he couldn't say, "the devil made me do it". Is it possible for a truly, truly "born again" follower of Jesus to be disobedient by being tempted by satan giving into sin?

You conclude that God can't do what he set out to do from the beginning, except in response to what man decides.

Can man by his own choice decide to follow Jesus or must he be prompted by the Holy Spirit to as some believe ... invite Jesus to come into their heart?

Boy! Good thing God could see down the corridors of time who would respond to the gospel with true faith so that he could know whom to choose to create for his own particular purposes!

So you believe man doesn't have free will for obedience, but does for disobedience?

 

[fhansen]

Who hear has said or even implied that God does not wish us to participate in His work?

Most call it synergism, and many object,..these days, at least.

But we are transformed from death to life, and that is a complete transformation.

Oh, ok, "complete transformation", then. I think you get my point, tho-and it still stands. A believer is not so irrevocably transformed that he might never say "no". Again, God covets our participation, our continuous assent. Salvation is about a seed that's planted in us at justification. It's meant to take root and grow but can also be ignored and allowed to wither and die.

The Life is real because the faith by which we are saved is a gift by the indwelling Spirit of God, and not of man's derivation. It is not our works that upholds the reality of this transformation. It is God himself who "inhabits that transformation" (for lack of an easier way to describe it).

The gift can be rejected; man has nothing to contribute himself but he can still say "no" to that which is gifted, or spit it back out later on after having tasted of it.

Let me ask you this. Do you think you add to God's work by your obedience and works?

At His discretion, yes, just as Paul needed to make up for "what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions" ( 1 Col 1:24). And yet even those acts are gifts from Him as faith, itself, is. But He's nonetheless pleased by our faith and by our works simply because we don't have to do them-and then the good that would otherwise be accomplished with ourselves as His hands would not get done, in our particular case anyway. Here's a related RCC teaching:

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

 

[Mark Quayle]

How can you say God wishes us to participate in his work when you believe just the opposite - that God "fore-Causes," "intentionally causing," and "determines" the choices of every person, whether directly or indirectly?

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation. "Has to", as you put it, meaning that it is logically necessary —not that God is constrained by his creation to do anything he would not otherwise do.

Mark Quayle said: I spoke according to your hypothetical construction, "God...creat[ing] us to think or act according to his plans", as far as cause-and-effect, that theoretically, (though the chains are so long and involved that we could not trace them all the way back), we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: For further proof, consider that if even one thing is predetermined, all things upon which it is contingent are also predetermined. And everything affects everything.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

How can you suppose that our choices can only be apart from causation??? It is only by God's causation that our choices even ARE.

You don't see this following, which you quoted above, as an explanation as to how his intentional causing of our choices, and the reality of our choices, are both causes of the results of our choices? It is ONLY by him causing our choices that they are even possible. He establishes all fact.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Do you honestly think that our choices somehow come to be, out of a void? Our choices are real, with real, even eternal consequences. THAT is because of God. We can do nothing without him upholding very fact and our very existence. You would attribute this to mere chance? If not, what then —are we somehow self-existent now that he has made us?

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

You would have God depending on us for his plans, as though somehow impressed by our virtues we own in and of ourselves.

BTW, this following is apparently a typo —God is not the "first caused", but "first cause", the uncaused causer:
Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

I honestly cannot see how you can regard the creature to be capable of doing anything apart from God's causation. God caused the creatures very existence, for crying out loud! Yet you consider the creature a first cause in his own right???

God demands our participation, actually. We are commanded to choose. And choose, we do. All day long, for good or for evil, according to God's plan. Deal with it. Apart from God we can do nothing.

 

[setst777]

How can you suppose that our choices can only be apart from causation??? It is only by God's causation that our choices even ARE.

You don't see this following, which you quoted above, as an explanation as to how his intentional causing of our choices, and the reality of our choices, are both causes of the results of our choices? It is ONLY by him causing our choices that they are even possible. He establishes all fact.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Do you honestly think that our choices somehow come to be, out of a void? Our choices are real, with real, even eternal consequences. THAT is because of God. We can do nothing without him upholding very fact and our very existence. You would attribute this to mere chance? If not, what then —are we somehow self-existent now that he has made us?

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

You would have God depending on us for his plans, as though somehow impressed by our virtues we own in and of ourselves.

BTW, this following is apparently a typo —God is not the "first caused", but "first cause", the uncaused causer:
Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

I honestly cannot see how you can regard the creature to be capable of doing anything apart from God's causation. God caused the creatures very existence, for crying out loud! Yet you consider the creature a first cause in his own right???

God demands our participation, actually. We are commanded to choose. And choose, we do. All day long, for good or for evil, according to God's plan. Deal with it. Apart from God we can do nothing.

I am not saying anything. I rely only on what the Scriptures say and explain; and that is why I quote the Scriptures.

But the question remains:

Why do you say God wishes us to participate in his work when you believe just the opposite - that God "fore-Causes," "intentionally causing," and "determines" the choices of every person, being controlled by HIS choices, whether directly or indirectly?

 

[Mark Quayle]

As to salvation, God either wants all to be saved or He doesn't. By giving the gift of free will He's saying that, for His purposes and according to His wisdom, our choice in the matter is so important to Him that He won't ultimately interfere even, though He obviously could.

Can you demonstrate this from scripture without overlaying your notions on top of it? Our choice in the matter is made frequently, with every obedience and submission to him, SUBSEQUENT to him having transformed us from death to life IN HIM. He doesn't need our choice in order to decide whether or not to give us life. Until he is our life, WE WILL NOT CHOOSE HIM. We are until then, at enmity with him. Do you not know scripture for those points?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Reform Baptist theology would say that via our own free choice we can't invite Jesus into our heart. Yet classic conservative Baptists agree that a Believer can invite Jesus to come into their heart and experience a transformaton of Peace, Love and Forgiveness with their testimony.

Define "free" there. It is not Reformed theology, to say that we are able to have salvific faith apart from the work of God.

Was the Holy Spirit previusly prompting those seeking Jesus to the point where they finally come to a place (e.g. altar call), and cry out inviting Jesus into their heart?

Huh? Do you not even understand the position of Reformed theology concerning regeneration?

Was its Abraham's decision to slay his son or was Abraham being obedient as led by the Holy Spirit and not his own choice?

It was Abraham's choice, as well as being obedient. What is the problem here? By FAITH, "and that, not of yourselves..."

Was it Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit? So it's our choice to sin, but it's God's choice who will be "born again" and stop sinning. God informed Adam that his sin was his own choice so he couldn't say, "the devil made me do it". Is it possible for a truly, truly "born again" follower of Jesus to be disobedient by being tempted by satan giving into sin?

It is indeed God's choice who will be born again, and God's choice who will "stop sinning", though the born again also choose to stop sinning, pretty much daily. Any success in that venture is due to the work of God, not to mention any motivation to choose it.

Can man by his own choice decide to follow Jesus or must he be prompted by the Holy Spirit to as some believe ... invite Jesus to come into their heart?

Are you talking about ACTUAL salvation here, or wannabe? Many have chosen, or so they thought, with tears and pain in the heart, to follow Jesus, and fell away. Only by the Spirit through whom salvific faith is generated, is anyone born again and saved. Apart from that rebirth, we all remain as before —at enmity with God.

So you believe man doesn't have free will for obedience, but does for disobedience?

Define free will.

But I believe man does indeed choose, both for obedience and for disobedience. The born again are able to choose either one. The lost are only able to choose rebelliously against God, even when they suppose themselves to choose to be obeying. And both, in every choice, choose precisely what God determined from the foundation of the world.

But maybe you can demonstrate that mere chance has causative ability.

 

[setst777]

Can you demonstrate this from scripture without overlaying your notions on top of it? Our choice in the matter is made frequently, with every obedience and submission to him, SUBSEQUENT to him having transformed us from death to life IN HIM. He doesn't need our choice in order to decide whether or not to give us life. Until he is our life, WE WILL NOT CHOOSE HIM. We are until then, at enmity with him. Do you not know scripture for those points?

What you are saying is empty nonsense. We all know that you believe that God "fore-Causes," "intentionally causing," and "determines" the choices of every person, being controlled by HIS choices, whether directly or indirectly. So, there is no obedience or submission to him that is from us in your belief system; rather, that is God causing all things to happen, including every thought and action anyone does, whether good or bad.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation. "Has to", as you put it, meaning that it is logically necessary —not that God is constrained by his creation to do anything he would not otherwise do.

Mark Quayle said: I spoke according to your hypothetical construction, "God...creat[ing] us to think or act according to his plans", as far as cause-and-effect, that theoretically, (though the chains are so long and involved that we could not trace them all the way back), we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: For further proof, consider that if even one thing is predetermined, all things upon which it is contingent are also predetermined. And everything affects everything.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What you are saying is empty nonsense. We all know that you believe that God "fore-Causes," "intentionally causing," and "determines" the choices of every person, being controlled by HIS choices, whether directly or indirectly. So, there is no obedience or submission to him that is from us in your belief system; rather, that is God causing all things to happen, including every thought and action anyone does, whether good or bad.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Mark Quayle said: As my mind uses the word, "sovereignty", concerning God, yes. He who is sovereign by definition foreknows (meaning fore-CAUSES, in his case) all things. And yes, he created all things, and caused them to be what they are, even to the point of their condemnation or salvation. "Has to", as you put it, meaning that it is logically necessary —not that God is constrained by his creation to do anything he would not otherwise do.

Mark Quayle said: I spoke according to your hypothetical construction, "God...creat[ing] us to think or act according to his plans", as far as cause-and-effect, that theoretically, (though the chains are so long and involved that we could not trace them all the way back), we can certainly know that God is at the head of all causation, and so, therefore, all effects are caused, either directly or indirectly by him.

Mark Quayle said: Man is the immediate cause of his choices, and God, as first caused, caused man to be, in every regard, to include man's choices.

Mark Quayle said: There is no conflict between him using our choices and him intentionally causing us to choose as we do. He uses us for his purposes. That is all we are, after all, which is a wonderful thing. I can't imagine why you would have a problem with that. We are nothing apart from him —why declare independent abilities?

Mark Quayle said: Elsewhere, I think, I have already shown how God has every right to determine our choices, and to do to us according to those choices.

Mark Quayle said: I believe that God determines the choices of every person, just as he does the motions of the smallest particle of force/matter. It is simple logic via cause-and-effect. To say otherwise is to deny God is omnipotent, first cause.

Mark Quayle said: For further proof, consider that if even one thing is predetermined, all things upon which it is contingent are also predetermined. And everything affects everything.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Mark Quayle said: I fail to see how God, having chosen (as scripture says he does) some for his particular purposes (Heaven), if it is only a result of fore-seeing who will and who will not accept him, is not controlled by OUR choices, rather than us being controlled by HIS choices.

While we are busily trading insults and disrespect, you have invented, (though you are a long way from the first to do so), the notion that if a person does something that he is caused to do that it is not choice. That is false. Somehow, you think that a person is not caused to choose what a person chooses, and so is, in and of himself, the first cause of his choices, which is self-contradictory, as nothing can happen from a void. Not even God "happened" from a void, but rather, he IS. We are not.

Yet you would have God being subject to our causation.

 

[setst777]

While we are busily trading insults and disrespect, you have invented, (though you are a long way from the first to do so), the notion that if a person does something that he is caused to do that it is not choice. That is false.

Do not confuse insulting with plainly stating the facts.

You explained that it was not our choices, but God's alone; in that, what our minds perceive as our own choices (an allusion) is actually God determining it to happen.

Mark Quayle said: I call God's willed plan, in both its general and specific intentions, God 'decree' or 'decrees'. The general, implicitly, necessarily composed of all the specific details of creation and creation's logical effects/ results. There is logically no difference between what God planned, what God did and what happened/happens/will happen, except in the way our minds must deal with or consider what God determined.

Mark Quayle said: For further proof, consider that if even one thing is predetermined, all things upon which it is contingent are also predetermined. And everything affects everything.

Mark Quayle said: Yes, both the good and bad choices, by both the born-again and those still dead in their sin, are God's means by which God accomplishes his decree (his plans).

Somehow, you think that a person is not caused to choose what a person chooses, and so is, in and of himself, the first cause of his choices, which is self-contradictory, as nothing can happen from a void. Not even God "happened" from a void, but rather, he IS. We are not.

Yet you would have God being subject to our causation.

You keep repeating the same error in all your discussions that those who disagree with you believe that ‘our choices all happen from a void.’

That strawman of yours has been debunked continuously; yet, you blindly state the same nonsense.

Nothing happens in a void. All choices each of us makes are because something happened. If we believe in Jesus as Lord, it’s because someone first preached the Gospel to us. There is no void where we make choices. That is all nonsense.

God explains in his Word how he acts toward us, and God holds us responsible for our choices - either refusing his grace, or believing in him. That is why God is righteous in all His judgments.

I just accept what God states. You want to add your own doctrine between the lines, but God speaks plainly, and God judges righteously.

What you believe is opposed to the Gospel as Lord Jesus taught it, and just as I have shown.

John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” [regeneration] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

John 5:24 (WEB) 24 “Most certainly I tell you, he who hears [listens] my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life [regeneration], and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life [regeneration].

You do not believe these Scriptures; therefore, you do not believe Lord Jesus who spoke those words.

John 20:30-31 (WEB) 30 Therefore Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.

God describes His Sovereign actions, and they are totally righteous, no favoritism or discrimination.

Romans 2:3-9 (WEB) 3 Do you think this, O man who judges those who practice such things, and do the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his goodness, forbearance, and patience, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to {{{repentance}}}? 5 But according to your hardness and unrepentant heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath, revelation, and of the righteous judgment of God; 6 who “will pay back to everyone according to their works:” [Psalm 62:12; Proverbs 24:12] 7 to those who by perseverance in well-doing seek for glory, honor, and incorruptibility, eternal life; 8 but to those who are self-seeking, and don’t obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, will be wrath, indignation, 9 oppression, and anguish on every soul of man who does evil, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return
from his way, and live?

Ezekiel 33:11 Tell them, ‘“As I live,” says the Lord Yahweh, “I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why will you die oh house of Israel?”’

Ezekiel 18:25-32 (WEB)
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust?
Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.
29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.
Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent and live!"