SALVATION

[BNR32FAN]

Because those who do so never had saving faith, their faith was counterfeit.

It's not disobedience that makes one's faith to be counterfeit, it's counterfeit faith that makes one to be disobedient.

Lol so they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit with counterfeit faith? Are you even thinking about the context here? In case you forgot we’re talking about Ephesians 5:1-6 just two sentences after he said that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. You’re not even trying to engage in the discussion with any actual discernment to the passage you’re just disregarding the evidence I’m presenting without giving it any thought by throwing out the term “counterfeit faith”.

 

[Clare73]

And… you’re back to ignoring Ephesians 4:30.

Where did you present Eph 4:30?

Eph 4:30 is in regard to true believers.

True believers can grieve the Holy Spirit, but will cease to grieve the Holy Spirit and repent.
If true believers continue to grieve the Holy Spirit, they will be disciplined (Heb 12:5-11) and
are subject to loss of reward, though they will not lose their salvation (1 Co 3:10-15).

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is precisely the reason they do not believe. . .the Father does not draw/enable them to do so (Jn 6:44, 65).
Nor can they believe until the Holy Spirit of the Father does draw/enable them (Ro 8:7-8, 1 Co 2:14, Jn 3:3-5).

So Jesus says they are in Him and you’re either saying they aren’t really in Him, or that false professors can actually be in Christ. So which is it? Can false professors be in Christ or are they not really in Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Okay. . .Eph 4:30 is in regard to true believers.

True believers can grieve the Holy Spirit, bit will cease to grieve the Holy Spirit and repent.
If true believers continue to grieve the Holy Spirit, they will be disciplined (Heb 12:5-11) and
are subject to loss of reward, though they will not lose their salvation (1 Co 3:10-15).

Where is this verse that says they will cease to grieve the Holy Spirit and repent? If that were actually true then John 15:6 would be an impossibility. No one could fail to abide in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If they did that "too long," they were never born again and their faith was counterfeit.

Paul is writing to the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ, he just said to them that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. You’re ignoring who he is addressing.

 

[fhansen]

But salvation depends entirely on God, who will not fail to save EVERY one of those to whom he chose to show mercy.

And, again, there's no doubt that the elect will be saved; by definition they are whoever will end up in heaven. And there's no doubt that grace precedes everything. In other words, we can't move ourselves to God, we can't even find God even if we sense that we need something bigger than ourselves and that such a " Thing" should well exist. But we're born lost, wounded, sick, dead, cut off from the "knowledge of God" that would give us life.

So, of course, we cannot be saved apart from God. But that DOES NOT mean that He does not wish us to participate in His work, for our highest good. If the whole point of salvation is that God simply must all-at-once so completely regenerate and change us such that we will choose only one way, rightly, He would never have let men kind fall to begin with. But He did, so that we might experience this fallen world where the Master's gone, a world where sin/evil are directly, viscerally, experienced- or known-daily, and where corruption/death draw us inescapably to their inevitable end, threatening our annihilation.

Here God, by his grace, also reveals Himself and His will and so informs and prompts and coaxes and even moves us towards Himself but without doing the one thing that you insist on, which is a complete overhaul in order to outright cause us to choose only one way. This world has a reason and purpose, it's a schoolhouse and so another aspect of His grace, in which we may learn for ourselves of the utter depravity of being apart from God so that when He knocks on our door we may be all the more ready to open it and to allow Him in, and to keep it open as we remain in Him. It's a journey, and one that we can jump ship on at any time. But if we don't, we will be among the elect. We're here to learn: "Apart from Me you can do nothing."

 

[BNR32FAN]

If they did that "too long," they were never born again and their faith was counterfeit.

The condemnation of the Galatians was due to adding works (circumcision) to faith as necessary for salvation.
There is no salvation (from the wrath of God, Ro 5:9, by forgiveness of sin through faith only) involving any kind of work (Eph 2:8-9).

Yes you’re absolutely correct but he specifically said in chapter 3 verses 1-5 that they had received the Holy Spirit, they were running well, they had been severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. Yes they were condemned for adding works to grace but they were believers who had a genuine faith who fell to condemnation because they did remain steadfast in their faith in the gospel.

 

[Clare73]

Where is this verse that says they will cease to grieve the Holy Spirit and repent?

So Paul is exhorting them to do what cannot be done?

Let's start with the verse Jn 10:28, and then there is Eph 1:11.

If that were actually true then John 15:6 would be an impossibility.
No one could fail to abide in Christ to the point of being cast away to wither and cast into the fires to be burned.

What we find in the parables is that the "kingdom of God," the "field," the "vine" all have both wheat (saving faith) and tares (counterfeit faith) among them, so that being "in the kingdom," "in the field" or "in the vine" refers not only to those who possess saving faith, but also to those who profess saving faith.
In the parables, the meaning of kingdom, field, vine is more "the assembly," than it is only the redeemed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So Paul is exhorting them to do what cannot be done?

I never said that, I’ve already made it clear that they must repent to be saved. You’re saying that it’s an absolute certainty that they will repent and be saved. Where is the scripture that supports that statement?

 

[Clare73]

Paul is writing to the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ, he just said to them that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit. You’re ignoring who he is addressing.

While Paul was indeed addressing the born again, are you assuming that all those in the church of Ephesus were necessarily born again?

 

[Clare73]

Yes you’re absolutely correct but he specifically said in chapter 3 verses 1-5 that they had received the Holy Spirit, they were running well, they had been severed from Christ and had fallen from grace. Yes they were condemned for adding works to grace but they were believers who had a genuine faith who fell to condemnation because they did remain steadfast in their faith in the gospel.

They are condemned only if they remain in their false gospel.
Returning to the true gospel is their salvation from that condemnation, just as turning to the gospel is the salvation of all who are condemned.

 

[Clare73]

I never said that, I’ve already made it clear that they must repent to be saved. You’re saying that
it’s an absolute certainty that they will repent and be saved. Where is the scripture that supports that statement?

Jn 10:28 is that certainty.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So Paul is exhorting them to do what cannot be done?

What we find in the parables is that the "kingdom of God," the "field," the "vine" all have both wheat (saving faith) and tares (counterfeit faith) among them, so that being "in the kingdom," "in the field" or "in the vine" refers not only to those who possess saving faith, but also to those who profess saving faith.
In the parables, the meaning of kingdom, field, vine is more "the assembly," than it is only the redeemed.

There’s a distinct difference between the tares in the field and the branches on the Vine. The tares in the field can’t bear fruit because they were planted by the enemy, the branches on the Vine will bear much fruit if they remain attached to Him because they were attached to the Vine by The Father. The difference is that the Vine is nurturing the branches. The tares aren’t being nurtured because don’t believe. The Vine isn’t an illustration of the church, it’s an illustration exclusively of believers. Furthermore tares aren’t guaranteed to bear fruit if they remain in the church and they’re destined to be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned regardless of whether or not they remain in the church. So there is a huge difference between the parable of the wheat and tares and the parable of the Vine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jn 10:28 is that certainty.

John 10:28 only applies to those who hear His voice and follow Him as He stated in verse 27.

 

[Clare73]

Lol so they have been sealed with the Holy Spirit with counterfeit faith?

Paul's letters are addressed to the born again. Only the born again are sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Not everyone in the churches were actually born again, there are tares among the wheat.

Warnings are one of the ways God preserves the elect (the wheat).
The elect heed the warnings and do not fail.
The tares do not heed the warnings and fail.

Failure to heed the warnings which preserve the elect demonstrates one was a tare, rather than wheat.

Are you even thinking about the context here? In case you forgot we’re talking about Ephesians 5:1-6 just two sentences after he said that they were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Paul is addressing the born again, who are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and who do not fail.
Those who fail are not born again and do not heed the warnings.

You’re not even trying to engage in the discussion with any actual discernment to the passage you’re just disregarding the evidence I’m presenting without giving it any thought by throwing out the term “counterfeit faith”.

What has not been addressed for you?

 

[Clare73]

John 10:28 only applies to those who hear His voice and follow Him as He stated in verse 27.

And that is only those whom the Father enables (Jn 6:65) and gives to him (Jn 6:37, 10:28-30, 6:39, 65), who are the born again. . .which is not everyone in the assembly professing faith, for some of them are tares.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What we find in the parables is that the "kingdom of God," the "field," the "vine" all have both wheat (saving faith) and tares (counterfeit faith) among them, so that being "in the kingdom," "in the field" or "in the vine" refers not only to those who possess saving faith, but also to those who profess saving faith.
In the parables, the meaning of kingdom, field, vine is more "the assembly," than it is only the redeemed.

Another thing I forgot to mention about John 15

And that is only those whom the Father enables (Jn 6:65) and gives to him (Jn 6:37, 10:28-30, 6:39, 65), who are the born again. . .which is not everyone in the assembly professing faith, for some of them are tares.

This contradicts John 15:6, a message spoke by Christ only to His 11 faithful apostles about abiding in Him. He told them to remain in Him, He told them why they must remain in Him, He told them the consequences of failing to remain in Him and He told them what they could expect IF they remain in Him. There were no tares present for this message. The entire discussion Jesus used the word “YOU” over and over and over. He used the word “YOU” 9 times in the first 7 verses. The entire message was telling them not to turn away from Him or they would face condemnation. There’s no tares in that conversation.

 

[AbbaLove]

While Paul was indeed addressing the born again, are you assuming that all those in the church of Ephesus were necessarily born again?

You've maybe heard this before that someone noticed an old man sitting in the back and found out it was the Apostle John. He was encouraged to come forward bringing a message of encoragement from the Lord. His message was brief ... "Love OneAnother".

Doesn't your order of SALVATION with justification preceding sanctification apply only to those that receive the Prize? Considering the state of modern Christianity with only one foot, hand, eye in His church; while the other foot, hand, eye (soul) is in the world. So does your order with justification before sanctifction stand the test of time assuming every justified seeker will finish the race and win the prize (glorified body)?

"faith --> salvation --> justification --> sanctification --> death --> resurrection --> glorification (immortal, sinless, glorious body like Christ's)"​

Paul's order takes into consideration that total "justification" isn't possible even though initially justifed. A Believer with good intentions may decide that living a Christian life is too demanding or no fun or brings persecution or possibly even death.

1 Corinthians 6:11​

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.​

Paul in both verses is referring to those born again Christians for final justification (winners receiving the prize) not initial justified grace. Does one's initial justification guarantee them finishing the race and winning the prize? The following MSG translaation is referring to those Christians that win the prize (eternal life-glorified body) having received justification to receive a glorified body.

Romans 8:30 (MSG)​

After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun.​

1 Cor 9:24 ..."Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it". And considering the Parable of the Sower: Some seed doesn't germinate. Some nominal/lukewarm seed lacks nutrients. Some potential seed is innoculated so as to produce 30, 60 100 fold, but for some reason the yield is disappointing.

Your comment "the pot calling the kettle black" is a good example of the disunity within Christendom (lacking love) Each Christian theologian can preceive what they consider a blind spot in another Christian's eye, but any attempt to point out a blind spot in their own eye ... lookout or they may call you "the pot" even inferring that the Apostle Paul's order is "wrong" (1 Cor 6:11).

Your order is the prevalent order being Christendom defines initial justification followed by sanctification for every truly, truly born again Christian. The problem is that too many Christains don't go on to live a sanctified life by being dead to sin and being alive in Christ having the indwelling empowerment of the Holy Spirit to win the race and receive the prize.

 

[Clare73]

Another thing I forgot to mention about John 15

This contradicts John 15:6, a message spoke by Christ only to His 11 faithful apostles about abiding in Him.,

Did nothing Jesus spoke only to his apostles apply to the body of Christ?

Scripture often speaks of professors (not possessors) as in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom (Mt 13, Jn 8:30-31, 44, Gal 5:4, Heb 6:4-6, 10:29, 2 Pe 1:9, 2:20-22, Lk 8:13).

He told them to remain in Him, He told them why they must remain in Him, He told them the consequences of failing to remain in Him and He told them what they could expect IF they remain in Him. There were no tares present for this message. The entire discussion Jesus used the word “YOU” over and over and over. He used the word “YOU” 9 times in the first 7 verses. The entire message was telling them not to turn away from Him or they would face condemnation. There’s no tares in that conversation.

Correct. . .warnings are one of the ways God preserves those of true faith (the elect).

 

[setst777]

But, how does one know he is a born-again Christian?

We know we are born-again Christians by remaining in "The Faith," which is manifested in renouncing sin, and a commitment to a sanctified life onto righteousness and love; for that is the only faith by which the Spirit will indwell anyone to give life (Acts 5:32).

Romans 6:1-5 (WEB) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! We who died to sin, how could we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death; so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection

1 Thessalonians 4:1-8 (WEB) Finally then, brothers, we beg and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God, that you abound more and more. 2 For you know what instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. 3 For this is the will of God: your sanctification, that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 that each one of you know how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not in the passion of lust, even as the Gentiles who don’t know God, 6 that no one should take advantage of and wrong a brother or sister in this matter; because the Lord is an avenger in all these things, as also we forewarned you and testified. 7 For God called us not for uncleanness, but in sanctification. 8 Therefore he who rejects this doesn’t reject man, but God, who has also given his Holy Spirit to you.

Galatians 5:24-25 (NIV) 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

Galatians 6:8-9 (EWEB) Writing to the Church in Galatia 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will {{{from the Spirit}}} reap eternal life. 9 Let us [Paul includes himself] not be weary in doing good, for we [Paul includes himself] will reap in due season, if we [Paul includes himself] do not give up.